I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

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Michsi
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Michsi » Mon May 23, 2011 4:50 am

When I came across the term "humans" in the english translation for these situation, I just brushed it off as probably having meant person/people. I really didn't think much about it.

I know that saiyans are an alien race.
I know that namekians are an alien race.
Even if they were put in the same group with that term ,I and probably everybody else with basic DB knowledge, knows that Vegeta and Krillin don't belong to the same specie.

That having been said, what about those animal people. Would they count as "ningen"? :D

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Mon May 23, 2011 4:52 am

Michsi wrote: That having been said, what about those animal people. Would they count as "ningen"? :D
I think Herms went over it in his human condition guide.
EDIT: Here
Herms wrote:Here’s an explanation from Daizenshuu 7:
Earthlings are by nature composed of 3 completely different-looking types of humans. These are the human-types, the animal-types, and the monster-types. What’s more, even within those types of humans, there are many people who look completely different. Because of this, it seems that they have developed an ethics of not discriminating against humans based on their appearance.
Anyways aren't you german? Do they use human(mensch) in your version?

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Michsi » Mon May 23, 2011 4:59 am

dbgtFO wrote:
Michsi wrote: Anyways aren't you german? Do they use human(mensch) in your version?
Nope :D I just happen to know the language and 50% of the DB manga I own is in german :)

Now, I actually want to check the scan you used with Kaioshin to see what term they use once I get home. As I said, I didn't give it much thought and I don't remember. Howeve,r I do get the impression the used "Mensch" there too.

But one example I do remember is from the german version of movie 4. When Slug notes that Goku is a saiyan, Goku replies " I am an earthling" He didn't use human here.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Bussani » Mon May 23, 2011 6:37 am

Michsi wrote:When Slug notes that Goku is a saiyan, Goku replies " I am an earthling" He didn't use human here.
If Saiyans really are "human" by Dragon Ball's definition of the word, calling himself human in that situation wouldn't make sense.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Michsi » Mon May 23, 2011 7:05 am

True, I was just mentioning the term in general.

Nevertheless, I do agree "human" doesn't feel right, at least not in the english translation.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by jackjack » Mon May 23, 2011 7:38 am

SuperForteX wrote: Why do Nappa and Vegeta differentiate between a Saiyan-human hybrid and a natural born Saiyan, if Saiyans are humans? This makes zero sense.
At least get your facts straight, bro. Vegeta said "earthling" ok?

Anyway, I'd say ningen/human refers to flesh-and-blood beings of the lower world (e.g. Earthlings, Saiyans, and Namekians).

18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien.”

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Mon May 23, 2011 10:44 am

We 'ain't brothers. But I agree with you in saying that ningen could mean "motals" or "flesh and blood creatures of the mortal realm."

Incidentally, this has turned into a "good" topic with a lot of noteworthy discussion and insight. So, maybe in that sense, unlocking it wasn't at all a mistake.

I'll try harder too.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Eddie » Mon May 23, 2011 10:58 am

^ Thank you. If you continue to make an effort (maybe be a bit more careful of how you word things), I seriously doubt you'll have major issues here. There's nothing wrong with discussing the use of a certain term in the Dragon World, just try to not insult everyone that takes the time to translate this stuff when you do. :)

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Herms » Mon May 23, 2011 5:02 pm

To expand on what Chibi Mystic Gohan was saying, some of the lines where Saiyans or other aliens are called "humans" in the manga are changed in the anime, namely Vegeta talking about Oozarus, Ginyu talking about himself, and No.17 calling Goku the strongest among humans. However, I've checked and there are others that are the same in the anime. So far I've confirmed No.18 calling Vegeta a "flesh-and-blood human" as they fight, Kibito calling Gohan human while healing him, and Kaioshin referring to Goku and co. as human right before Dabra comes out to fight Gohan, are all the same in the anime. In Vegeta's case, Simmons' subtitles translate ningen as "man", with Kibito it's "those among mankind", and with Kaioshin it's "people".
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Mon May 23, 2011 8:48 pm

SuperForteX wrote:In this one instance, yes, they used the term human. In the case of Ginyu and Vegeta, they didn't.
In the case of Vegeta's line, Viz altered that one completely. Vegeta doesn't even mention having ten times more battle power as an oozaru. (Goku: "You... you killed my grandpa!" Vegeta: "Ha! Now that's a laugh!" Something like that.)
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Kiyza » Mon May 23, 2011 9:29 pm

You know, I tend to see this translated as "person" about as often as "human." In this case, if it were me doing the translations, I'd probably use the former because people generally just assume human = Homo sapien, where as "person" generally has a broader meaning. I don't think there's anything wrong with using "human," though, and as previous members have pointed out, "human" has a much broader definition in English than most people generally think, and people who know way more Japanese than I'll ever know, and write Japanese-English dictionaries and contribute to Google Translate seem to agree "human" is probably the best translation.

By the way, I figured I'd ask, what exactly would "Human-type Earthling" be written out in Japanese? Daizenshuu 4 apparently uses this to specifically refer to the characters that are just, by our definitions, normal humans. (minus the ki blasts and such)

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Herms » Tue May 24, 2011 12:25 pm

Kiyza wrote:By the way, I figured I'd ask, what exactly would "Human-type Earthling" be written out in Japanese? Daizenshuu 4 apparently uses this to specifically refer to the characters that are just, by our definitions, normal humans. (minus the ki blasts and such)
人間型地球人/ningen-gata chikyuu-jin
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Thu May 26, 2011 10:05 am

Well, I did the best I could, but I can't redeem myself after a topic like this. :)
It's time for my departure. :) I won't post at DaizenshuuEX anymore, because people think I'm SuperForteX from GameFAQs.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw down my two cents one more time. It's stupid to call Capt. Ginyu a human, and you know it, so why don't you just admit it? :)

I'm never wrong :)
Ban me.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by hleV » Thu May 26, 2011 10:28 am

Is human supposed to mean earthling? I don't think so. Human is something which is not animal or other kind of alive being. Capt. Ginyu is a human of another planet/species.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Herms » Thu May 26, 2011 11:11 am

SuperForteX wrote:It's stupid to call Capt. Ginyu a human
Toriyama didn't think so.

If it's stupid to call Ginyu a human, it's stupid to call Chaozu one too.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Godo » Thu May 26, 2011 1:04 pm

SuperForteX wrote:Well, I did the best I could, but I can't redeem myself after a topic like this.
Many of the members here have done something in the past that was frowned upon, but by being respectful and active they redeemed themselves like, in a day or so.
You will never be disliked because of your opinion, but rather on how you debate (that is, using common sense and listening to others and respecting their knowledge too).
If you are up to admitting that there are other members here who know what they are talking about (or even just respect that there are other views on different matters) I promise you that no one will shun you from here.
SuperForteX wrote: It's time for my departure. I won't post at DaizenshuuEX anymore, because people think I'm SuperForteX from GameFAQs.
Then try to distance yourself from this other SuperForteX guy. Even so, I don't see how it's a problem. You can simply tell people here that you don't share his opinions when they bring it up.
SuperForteX wrote: It's stupid to call Capt. Ginyu a human, and you know it, so why don't you just admit it?
Apparently like, all members here don't. What you are saying is simply that you are superior in linguistic skills than all the people participating in this thread. A bigger insult couldn't be given to us (of whom many of us know more than two languages to know what we are talking about). You are not talking to an English speaking crowd that you can fool. You are talking to an international crowd that have proven to you that you are on the wrong track.
SuperForteX wrote: I'm never wrong
Then why do you frequent message boards? To spread your knowledge of light on the foolish sheep underneath you? Surely you must have expected a little bit of resistance, here.
SuperForteX wrote: Ban me.
If you had stayed a little bit longer and actually given this place a chance, you would know that asking for a ban here does not equal a ban.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Thu May 26, 2011 2:19 pm

SuperForteX wrote:I'm never wrong :)
Which explains why you were wrong throughout this thread.
It would be more accurate to write: "I can't accept I'm wrong."

However stupid the idea may be to you, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. That's one thing you have to realize, because you seem like some immature kid, who just won't accept one of Dragon Ball's many quirks, because it goes against your beliefs.

Toriyama is the author, the ultimate ruler of Dragon World, if he wants it like that, then that's just the way it is.

But who cares? you've announced that you are leaving Daizex, so you probably won't read this. It's a shame because you really need to learn, that you aren't going to be right all the time instead of denying it like you do and run away, when you are close to realizing you could be wrong(I don't buy your stated reason for departure AT ALL).

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Fox666 » Thu May 26, 2011 3:58 pm

SuperForteX wrote:I'm never wrong :)
Just a quote, nothing else need to be said

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Thu May 26, 2011 5:49 pm

SuperForteX wrote:I won't post at DaizenshuuEX anymore, because people think I'm SuperForteX from GameFAQs.
Well... it's kinda obvious that you are.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Jaruka » Thu May 26, 2011 7:54 pm

SuperForteX wrote:You're really twisting things if you call Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza, and all other alien races 'humans'. I saw a silly post about this on the other DB board, and quite frankly--you guys must know, somewhere deep down inside, how trollishly stupid it sounds claiming that all of these races are considered 'human', because they're described with the term 'ningen'. How assinine.

No. Saiyans are not humans. Neither are Namekians.
Prove to me that they're humans. That's silly.
They are all humanoid, that's why 'human' is sometimes used as an umbrella term. Plus the Saiyan may be something along the lines of the homo genus, it's unlikely that the two species would be so different and yet still be able to breed as breeding can only happen if the species are genetically similar (e.g. Lions and Tigers - and bears, oh my! but not bears). It's clear that the Saiyan race is a product of parallel evolution and are as such biologically compatible with homo sapien sapiens. To be biologically compatible the species need to be similar so it's fair to assume that biologists on Earth prior to the Saiyans arriving would be named Homo Saiyan or something along those lines.

The Namekians and a number of other races also of humanoid characteristics and are likely to be quite biologically similar too or at least products of similar circumstances that would require the humanoid features they all exhibit.

Now, see how pointless everything I wrote was? I tried to put biological and evolutionary science into a manga series.

My advice? Stop being so anal and let people do whatever they want.
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