deleted

[Fox666]

deleted

[JulieYBM]

Official is official is official. Does one possibly contradict the other? It doesn't matter. They're both right.

[jjgp1112]

I put more stock in the official numbers than fan made numbers. The fans seem to have this idea that everything is presented picture perfect, with the only thing in mind being "NUMBERS, NUMBERS, 'N MORE NUMBERS." when in actuality it's not. No matter how much people try to microanalyze every panel, every facial expression, every statement, regardless of whether or not it's in the proper context, something won't make sense. It's best to just roll with it. I mean, this is a story drawn by a guy who thought that SSJ Goku was only 10x stronger than he'd previously been when he was drawing the panels, even though that'd make him weaker than when he did the 20x Kaioken. How crystal clear do you think everything's going to be?

[VegettoEX]

Can I be honest and say that I think a huge portion of the reason for disagreement among battle-power-loving fans is that I'd wager 99% of them don't actually own the primary sources they're referencing?

I mean, these ARE books printed in Japanese for a Japanese audience. How many of the fans -- regardless of whether they take issue with the numbers or not -- actually have the proper context for what they're talking about? It's not as if most of them can pull the books off their shelves and independently assess what is stated in its original language. There's always a filter it's going through.

Furthermore, like you said, there are two pages among 1600+ in the seven main daizenshuu that relate to battle powers. They're just not a significant portion of the books, but for some fans, they are given this almost unfathomable level of importance.

Between not owning the books, not understanding the context for ALL of the information spread across them, not being able to read what's in them anyway... well, there's a lot of room for misunderstanding in there. Toss general Internet anonymity and individual egos into the mix, and you have a subject worthy of long, expletive-filled debates.

I truly don't think it would matter whether a number came from Toriyama directly in the original manga on its first page in Weekly Jump, in a re-print of the manga, in an official guide for the series, in a supplemental book from the same publisher... it doesn't matter at all. Too many people have too many different viewpoints (which is awesome, because it encourages diverse, independent thought) that there simply CANNOT be a universal, baseline acceptance.

Even if you ignore guide books, imagine this scenario:

(1) Toriyama writes in the original manga that CHARACTER X has a battle power of YYY.
(2) Toriyama later tells two fans face-to-face that he always meant it to be a battle power of ZZZ, instead.

"Fan 1" is of the mindset that unless it was written at the time of publication, it doesn't count. "Fan 2" is of the mindset that as long as it comes from the author's own mouth, it's valid.

These types of fans exist. You've met them. They're both "right". They both have valid reasons for thinking the way they think. Without even bringing supplemental material into the mix, you already have to agree to disagree.

[Herms]

Can I be honest and say that I think a huge portion of the reason for disagreement among battle-power-loving fans is that I'd wager 99% of them don't actually own the primary sources they're referencing?

I think that's part of it, but there are also Japanese fans who don't accept the guidebook numbers. I don't know how the size of that group compares to that in English-speaking fandom, but they'll definitely there, so it's not entirely a matter of language/access barriers. But the massive amounts of misinformation and misunderstanding about what the daizenshuu are actually like and what they say is certainly a factor.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, totally -- I didn't mean to discount that entire side of things (Japanese fans with their Japanese books assessing Japanese material in Japan). In that case, it comes down to how I ended my post with "Fan 1" and "Fan 2", who could be any fans from any country .

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it's basically that a lot of people just put too much of emphasis on battle powers themselves which, frankly, aren't that important, not even to Dragon Ball itself, since it's constantly proven to be an inherently flawed, unreliable method of measuring an opponent's power and resulting in the villains' downfall, and it's only even relevant to two arcs out of the whole series.

Frankly, I really don't give a shit about Goku going from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one Zenkai. You never hear anyone complaining about Goku going from being Tao Pai Pai's bitch to his superior in only three days of training at Karin's, do you? But that's probably because battle powers didn't even exist in the story back then and it was just touted as Goku being an incredibly skilled martial artist.

Yes, people are entitled to dislike the battle power numbers or just certain things in the guidebooks in general. But don't claim that they're wrong or "fake" just because you don't like them. They are what they are.

[Payne222]

The only time a power level matters is if it's over 9000.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The only time a power level matters is if it's over 9000.

No. Just...no.

[hleV]

I don't think Vegeta would've been designed that way if AT were to continue the series himself. In fact, GT Vegeta's appearance could be very well explained by the fact that AT didn't really like the character, thus made him look crappy for the DB continuation which he didn't himself create. I somehow doubt AT would've screwed Vegeta like that in his own manga, especially that people liked Vegeta.

Now for the BPs, the guides don't seem to be so wrong about them, if you think about it. Some entries could be arguable since they may look differently in the manga for some people. As long as arguments make sense, there's possibility that there's simply a mistake in the guide(s).

For Goku's BP of 910 during the 23rd Budokai, that may have been his maximum power output when he charged that Super Kamehameha or whatever he did back then. Later Goku's BP was only over 300 or 400, which wasn't necessary his maximum possible power, just like Piccolo's before he charged Makankosappo.
You're right, though, there's a lack of explanation about that in the guides, which is kind of annoying.

[Payne222]

The only time a power level matters is if it's over 9000.

No. Just...no.

Hahahahaha! Honestly though, the power levels to me were the 5th grade, playground arguments I'd have with friends. Now being older and what not, everyone should realized the official battle powers that have been released and accept them for what they are and the rest is speculation. They don't even really matter, they were only relevent during the Saiyan/Freeza Sagas to tell an enemy's power level before they all developed the ability to mentally sense it.

[Nazi Cola]

Very good post, Fox. I recently saw a debate on Pojo (not saying it's a bad forum by any means, mind you) where a guy argued that the daizenshuu (#7 specifically) shouldn't be counted because they're "made by fans just like you and [me]". I was like . The guy he was debating basically answered with "Do you even know what the daizenshuu are?", and then went on to explain that they were made by Bird Studio, had Toriyama's name on them, had interviews directly supplied by Toriyama, yada yada.

Personally, I see that kind of mindset all too often. A person disagrees with a battle power given in the book, so when they see a slanderous rumor like the books were "made by fans", they're all too eager to accept it so they can sleep at night.

I don't agree with each battle power given, but I don't bash those who do. I just go on with my life, and try to avoid debating that specific level, actually.

[Kaboom]

Numerical Battle Powers are just one small part of the entire Dragon Ball mythos. They were used during one particular chunk of the story as a plot device. Even within that story, a big part of their purpose was to demonstrate just how unreliable they were, and to show the difference in skill between the talented Earth martial artists as opposed to most of Freeza's space-thugs.

Heck, that's the entire point of power levels represented as numbers. That of it not being a reliable system. There's always more to a battle than mere numbers vs numbers.

You've got things like Nappa being a complete tank, allowing him to brush off everything the weaker heroes throw at him (even a Kikoho!) and last admirably long against Goku who's twice as strong as him. Yet then you've got Vegeta completely owning Zarbon and Dodoria with a power gap that's hardly noticeable, and later dominating his rematch with Zarbon due to having superior skill and tactics, despite being dead even in power.

This is not an exact science, and it seems clear that numbers are never the be-all, end-all of battles. This is something the series itself worked to drill into the readers' heads.

As far as the "credibility" of the power levels within the books and what-not... Well who knows, some of them may be directly from Toriyama. But even if not, practically all of them would are just easy enough to deduce. We know how things like the Kaio-Ken work, so that would help in determining things like Goku's power against Vegeta, or how Goku compares to the Ginyu Force and the captain himself. That and things like second-form Freeza declaring himself at over a million serve as big clues towards figuring out Goku and Freeza's powers during their battle.

It's basically a fill-in-the-blanks game. The powers-that-be at Shueisha did their research and decided what the values of those blanks are. Swell! We've got some more things to go by now.

But that's likely also the biggest reason why we don't have official battle powers for the Androids arc and beyond. Instead of some values and some blanks, now it's ALL blanks. We might still have some clues as to Goku and friends' power progression, but nothing too concrete, and certainly nothing that any solid numerical value could be assigned to. It's not like we have Android 16 reading off numbers whenever he uses his power scanner, or anything like that.

The closest thing we've gotten is the official Super Saiyan 2 and 3 boosts from the Super Exciting Guides, and even those are pretty simple to deduce in hindsight. Super Saiyan 2 is much stronger than level 1, but some characters in the Majin Boo arc still have some trouble telling them apart (mostly the few who have shown sketchy Ki-sensing skills to begin with). Super Saiyan 3, however, appears to be a VASTLY greater power boost, enough so that the user's Ki is capable of reaching all the way into the heavens themselves and practically slapping the god-among-gods himself in the face. The "2x SSj" and "4x SSj2" boosts for the stages make a lot of sense when you take all that into account.


Okay, I'm getting a bit too far into "stream of consciousness" territory here, so let me wrap this up.


Power Levels, both in-universe and out, are not an exact science. Given that gray nature, Toriyama and the people at Shueisha's guesses are as good as ours. Actually no, they're better, since they're the ones whose job and prerogative it is to take those guesses and call them official.

We fans who dabble in this stuff are certainly under no obligation to agree with the official numbers, and we don't have to include them in our own fan-made power level lists if we don't want to. But while our own fan-theories may occasionally disagree with the official numbers, they will never invalidate them. They CAN never invalidate them.

To say you know better or have more authority than the people behind the official numbers is conceited and, to be totally honest, just makes you look like a jerk. And it's ultimately pointless, because given the aforementioned there's no way to prove your levels "more correct" than the official ones, nor to prove the official ones flawed in any solid way.

The one thing I do tend to find annoying is how some power levels might seem odd without explanation, like hlev pointed out. But all that really does is provide some more blanks to fill in. Better to explain the official numbers than to dismiss them, if you ask me.

Like JulieYBM said, "official is official is official." Take 'em or leave 'em.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think Vegeta would've been designed that way if AT were to continue the series himself. In fact, GT Vegeta's appearance could be very well explained by the fact that AT didn't really like the character, thus made him look crappy for the DB continuation which he didn't himself create. I somehow doubt AT would've screwed Vegeta like that in his own manga, especially that people liked Vegeta.

You know that not everyone hates GT Vegeta's design, and Toriyama could've actually wanted Vegeta to look like that and liked it. It's not as if all of Toriyama's designs are perfect.

[Fox666]

I mean, this is a story drawn by a guy who thought that SSJ Goku was only 10x stronger than he'd previously been when he was drawing the panels, even though that'd make him weaker than when he did the 20x Kaioken. How crystal clear do you think everything's going to be?

That's not actually what he said.



"To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a... simple reason that it’d make you go "eh?". I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku's hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn't have to be blacked in. What's more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

This is quite confusing, but 10 times is about how Toriyama feels like, but he DO mention it was 50 times.

Essentially what he is saying is: "At the time I established Goku was 50 times stronger as a Super Saiyan, but that is hard to picture in my mind, so I always had the feeling it was more like 10 times"

[Kaboom]

This is quite confusing, but 10 times is about how Toriyama feels like, but he DO mention it was 50 times.

Essentially what he is saying is: "At the time I established Goku was 50 times stronger as a Super Saiyan, but that is hard to picture in my mind, so I always had the feeling it was more like 10 times"

Yes, this is something I've had to get past with power level discussions before. Toriyama isn't declaring the official 50x boost to be incorrect or invalid, here. After all, the 50x boost was listed and even further expanded upon (with the SSj2 and SSj3 boosts) right there in that very same book, and somehow I don't think they'd print it as such if the author himself truly was against it.

[Fox666]

I don't think Vegeta would've been designed that way if AT were to continue the series himself. In fact, GT Vegeta's appearance could be very well explained by the fact that AT didn't really like the character, thus made him look crappy for the DB continuation which he didn't himself create. I somehow doubt AT would've screwed Vegeta like that in his own manga, especially that people liked Vegeta.

You know that not everyone hates GT Vegeta's design, and Toriyama could've actually wanted Vegeta to look like that and liked it. It's not as if all of Toriyama's designs are perfect.

I myself don't "hate" it, I just think it's ugly.

But his appearance makes a lot of sense if you compare to his personality in the end of the manga. To quote the Daizenshuu:

And then ten years later he has become a strict parent.

Vol. 42 / Chp. 518
The vestiges of what he used to be has completely vanished. Vegeta's expression is calm.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think Vegeta would've been designed that way if AT were to continue the series himself. In fact, GT Vegeta's appearance could be very well explained by the fact that AT didn't really like the character, thus made him look crappy for the DB continuation which he didn't himself create. I somehow doubt AT would've screwed Vegeta like that in his own manga, especially that people liked Vegeta.

You know that not everyone hates GT Vegeta's design, and Toriyama could've actually wanted Vegeta to look like that and liked it. It's not as if all of Toriyama's designs are perfect.

I myself don't "hate" it, I just think it's ugly.

But his appearance makes a lot of sense if you compare to his personality in the end of the manga. To quote the Daizenshuu:

And then ten years later he has become a strict parent.

Vol. 42 / Chp. 518
The vestiges of what he used to be has completely vanished. Vegeta's expression is calm.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not particularly a fan of his moustache either (although it was only a joke design point that was soon scrapped). But I agree that his appearance makes sense, considering his end-of-Z design.

[Adamant]

Having only watched 6 episodes of Gt and been kinda meh towards it so far, I found Vegeta's design to be one of the best parts of it. It's so hilariously non-Vegeta and perfectly pictures the idea that he's settled down to a family life.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Kaboom and Daimao are correct in pointing out that they are plot devices for their time in the series. Problem is they opened a door that technically never closed, and a rate of progression that continued to be just as dramatic even if it wasn't measured. Which makes attempting to track it even harder. Did the Daizenshuu really try to give numbers to everything post Freeza?

A gem from the GameFaq's Dragon Ball board's "Name a Flaw" topic series Battle Powers topic: "It's really sad to think that at any time during Goku's childhood, Cui could have shown up and killed everyone." (Sounding like a plot device yet?)