Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Toadster » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:40 am

I think Raditz has potential. Just because he was naturally weak doesn't mean he can't take his power to crazy heights. Goku was naturally weaker than him, and look how strong Goku became. He even outclassed the much naturally stronger Vegeta.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Michsi » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:41 am

I think every Saiyan has the potential to become a SSJ the same way any human has the potential to become a body bulding champion. You have all the physical attributes but it takes more than that to achieve that level. If it were that easy, there'd be more SSJs running around. Before Goku, there was supposedly only one super saiyan. The fact that we are talking about beings whose lives revolve around fighting and becoming stronger and that in 1000 years only one managed to do it, leads me to believe that not everyone can reach that level .

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by rereboy » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:53 am

Michsi wrote:I think every Saiyan has the potential to become a SSJ the same way any human has the potential to become a body bulding champion. You have all the physical attributes but it takes more than that to achieve that level. If it were that easy, there'd be more SSJs running around. Before Goku, there was supposedly only one super saiyan. The fact that we are talking about beings whose lives revolve around fighting and becoming stronger and that in 1000 years only one managed to do it, leads me to believe that not everyone can reach that level .
Its almost necessary to go through many and multiple zenkais to reach that level and 99,9% of the times, in battle, when a Saiyan faced someone stronger than him, he just died.

Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were all very lucky in being severely wounded that many times in battle and being able to survive and recover (besides their training).

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Michsi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:59 am

It's hard to think that out of all the saiyans , in all those years , only 2 (pure saiyans) got lucky enough to survive multiple zenkais.

And is the zenkai power up a must? Gohan only had something like 2 before entering the RoSat.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:13 am

Michsi wrote:It's hard to think that out of all the saiyans , in all those years , only 2 (pure saiyans) got lucky enough to survive multiple zenkais.
Why?
The Saiyans were deployed to planets possibly far away from healing tanks fx. Vegeta had to travel all the way to the closest Freeza planet(took him 7 days IIRC), before he could get his injuries tended to, so it makes perfect sense that many Saiyans would succumb to their injuries, before getting anywhere close to a healing tank.

On Planet Namek and when Goku trained on his way there, the required technology was easily accessable.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Michsi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:23 am

Because we are talking about thousands, possibly millions of saiyans. IIrc Bardock had multiple zenkais aswell, possibly more than Goku, but was far weaker than Goku before he went SSJ.



And I repeat, do you have to go through zenkai power-ups to attain SSJ level?

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:44 am

Michsi wrote:Because we are talking about thousands, possibly millions of saiyans.
Which doesn't mean, that they all did in fact receive fatal wounds and had to be healed nor does it mean that they all had been out on a mission yet.
IIrc Bardock had multiple zenkais aswell, possibly more than Goku, but was far weaker than Goku before he went SSJ.
Well as far as I know, it's unknown how many power-ups Bardock received, so everything we come up with would just be speculation.
Also you have to keep in mind that just because Bardock could have received more power-ups than Goku, it doesn't automatically mean, that he should end up stronger by default. Bardock's power before his first power-up could for example be much lower than what Goku's was, when he started getting them.
And the boosts don't have to be the same for everyone either.
And I repeat, do you have to go through zenkai power-ups to attain SSJ level?
Possibly. It could be that simple training won't yield giant increases in power after a certain point and near death power boosts are needed, if you want to come close to achieving Super Saiyan in a much shorter time, than what normal training could offer.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Michsi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:01 am

Which doesn't mean, that they all did in fact receive fatal wounds and had to be healed nor does it mean that they all had been out on a mission yet.
I might remember this wrong, but isn't the planet business a new thing? Meaning it was started by King Vegeta?
If that's true, than the whole mission business can't be older than 50 years, at most.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:07 am

Michsi wrote:
Which doesn't mean, that they all did in fact receive fatal wounds and had to be healed nor does it mean that they all had been out on a mission yet.
I might remember this wrong, but isn't the planet business a new thing? Meaning it was started by King Vegeta?
If that's true, than the whole mission business can't be older than 50 years, at most.
Yeah, I think it's touched upon in Daizenshuu 7's timeline evaulation. Go check out Herms' topic about if needed.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Michsi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:38 am

It was in the Saiyan 101 guide.

According to that article, the saiyans were in the planet selling business for less than a couple of years. So dying on missions doesn't really count here.

If anything, the existance of one SSJ triggered the existance of several others in the main story. It's surprising that the same didn't happen back then aswell, since there were presumably more than 2 saiyans around.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Bussani » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:00 pm

Michsi wrote:It's hard to think that out of all the saiyans , in all those years , only 2 (pure saiyans) got lucky enough to survive multiple zenkais.
Keep in mind that even those two pure Saiyans died before either became Super Saiyan. If it weren't for the dragon balls, they wouldn't have survived long enough to do it, either.
And is the zenkai power up a must? Gohan only had something like 2 before entering the RoSat.
I don't think so, but imagine trying to surpass the limits of how strong Saiyans are supposed to be able to get without something like it. Gohan had an enormous hidden power to begin with thanks to being a hybrid, had a lot of that power brought out by magicks, and then was trained by the Super Saiyan himself for nearly four years.
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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by MysticNinjaJay » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:37 pm

Thanos wrote:Supposedly, Raditz is considered a weak low-class Saiyan among low-class Saiyans. Still, he was stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined, and he is related to Goku. It seems like the assumption is that he was a really weak guy, but is it possible that he could've reached Goku's level?

Or perhaps the same is true for all Saiyans? It seems rather clear that the race, while living on Planet Vegeta, were rather quite terrible at training or becoming very strong. I think it's like they have tons of potential, but the nature of their business with the Planetary Trade Organization, seems as though they spend all of their time fighting native aliens to clear planets as opposed to ever having a chance to really hone their abilities.

Vegeta spent around 30 years or so living with the Saiyans, yet he only managed to reach a level equal to that of some of Freeza's weaker cronies (Kiwi, for instance). Yet, in a matter of years, training on Earth, was able to achieve the level of Super Saiyan. And Goku, being a low-class warrior, obviously became more powerful than any other Saiyan known.

Yeah, it's entirely possible that Raditz was just weaksauce in general, but he was way stronger than Goku at the time of his death.


Thoughts?
Raditz and the Saiyan race were introduced by Toriyama to give Goku new enemies and a basis for being able to reach new heights of power thanks to his alien heritage. He basically took the Superman/Krypton narrative and applied it to Goku making him one of the last survivors of an extinct alien race that just so happened to look like humans but were physically much stronger. Of course Raditz would need to be extremely powerful to pose a threat to Goku and the long lost brother narrative was used as an explanation for how he knew where to find him. When he was introduced in the series Raditz was the strongest character known in DBZ, then we learned that other Saiyans were even more powerful giving Goku reason to train and get stronger.

From a storyline perspective it is obvious why Toriyama made the Saiyans weaker than Frieza and his strongest henchmen. He needed the enemies of the Z warriors to be formidable. The fact that Goku was born a low class Saiyan and with special training was able to beat Vegeta, the Prince of all Saiyans, shows that the the potential of the Saiyans is not fixed. If Goku hadn't trained with King Kai he would never have been able to beat Nappa and Vegeta. If he hadn't trained in the Gravity Room of the space pod Dr. Brief made for him he would never have been able to beat the members of the Ginyu Force and certainly not Frieza. So what if Raditz had trained with King Kai or trained at 100x gravity? There's no reason why he couldn't have achieved the same power as Goku if that's what the creator of the show wanted. He's Goku's brother and he was much stronger than him when he was introduced.

So if Toriyama wanted to say that Raditz, Nappa or any other Saiyan could become Super Saiyans or even Super Saiyan Gods with the right training there would be no plothole. Frieza was able to train for a few months so surpass the power of Super Saiyan Blue with his golden form and Android 17 was able to have an even battle with Goku in Super Saiyan Blue form after doing his own training after the Cell Saga so not only Saiyans but many characters in the series have potential to get stronger. Toriyama could find ways for all of the characters in Dragon Ball Super to get stronger through some special training to unlock hidden potential. Maybe there is a Namekian God form that Piccolo could achieve with the right training for example. Power Levels have lost importance in the Dragon Ball series at this point and while the human characters are still no where near the strength level of Super Saiyan God we still saw characters like Krillin and Master Roshi fighting very strong enemies in The Tournament of Power so there isn't necessarily a limit to any character's potential.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:47 pm

Just by being a Saiyan he's already better than 99% of the races in Universe, add the zenkai's and he easily reaches the low millions like the humans in the Android Arc. Maybe get's SSJ but that would be his limit in my opinion. Most of his growth would be because of the zenkais. Since he should have decent battle experience and 10x gravity training.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:18 pm

LightBing wrote:he easily reaches the low millions like the humans in the Android Arc.
There is really no evidence they got even close to that power. The only good feat any of them had was Tien's tri beam which was powered by plot. The first time I actually thought the humans were that level were the ToP.
I agree Raditz could probably get there though.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:24 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
LightBing wrote:he easily reaches the low millions like the humans in the Android Arc.
There is really no evidence they got even close to that power. The only good feat any of them had was Tien's tri beam which was powered by plot. The first time I actually thought the humans were that level were the ToP.
I agree Raditz could probably get there though.
Obviously it's just my opinion. The sequences that me make think this are the Androids confusing Yamcha as Goku and #20 calculating that if he absorbed Gohan, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Restrained Piccolo he would be able to defeat Vegeta. This strongly implies the humans are at least in the million zone, otherwise there's no way that a lesser contribution would be enough to defeat Vegeta.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:40 pm

Yeah, he did. Saiyans are portrayed as having a considerable potential, so i think if he survived he could be up there with the Saiyans and likely unlock SSJ. Dunno if he could reach SSJ2, though.
You know, i'd like to see his character development more than anything. But that's another history.
LightBing wrote:Obviously it's just my opinion. The sequences that me make think this are the Androids confusing Yamcha as Goku and #20 calculating that if he absorbed Gohan, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Restrained Piccolo he would be able to defeat Vegeta. This strongly implies the humans are at least in the million zone, otherwise there's no way that a lesser contribution would be enough to defeat Vegeta.
How you think this would work numerically? It's literally impossible to do this with the 50x multiplier, even a 10x is too small. And do you think absorbing if 20 absorbed suppressed Piccolo again he'd surpass Vegeta too?
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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:47 pm

LightBing wrote: Obviously it's just my opinion.
You didn't state it like one.
The sequences that me make think this are the Androids confusing Yamcha as Goku and #20 calculating that if he absorbed Gohan, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Restrained Piccolo he would be able to defeat Vegeta. This strongly implies the humans are at least in the million zone, otherwise there's no way that a lesser contribution would be enough to defeat Vegeta.
The last time he recorded Goku's power it was in the saiyan saga.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:37 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:How you think this would work numerically? It's literally impossible to do this with the 50x multiplier, even a 10x is too small. And do you think absorbing if 20 absorbed suppressed Piccolo again he'd surpass Vegeta too?
I never tried to translate it into numbers. Thinking about it now it doesn't work with another of my beliefs, Piccolo joining with Kami doubling his power. So one of these is wrong or there's another to make it work which I can't figure out right now.
dragon boss z wrote:You didn't state it like one.
Well I didn't attach a source and it isn't one of those things widely agreed by the community, people should assume it's an opinion.
dragon boss z wrote:The last time he recorded Goku's power it was in the saiyan saga.
Dr.Gero made the Androids anticipating Goku's growth based on his age and development until that point. So when they confused Yamcha they were assuming he was Goku after training all those years after the Saiyan Arc. They seemed to have accounted for everything correctly, except Super Saiyan. Assuming Yamcha was at around Base Goku before he got SSJ seems about right.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:30 am

LightBing wrote: Well I didn't attach a source and it isn't one of those things widely agreed by the community, people should assume it's an opinion.
Ya I knew it's your opinion, but you were saying it like it's extremely likely, which I don't think is the case. Especially for Yamcha. Tbh I'm not sure he even surpassed the Ginyu force, or even Zarbon for that matter.
dragon boss z wrote: Dr.Gero made the Androids anticipating Goku's growth based on his age and development until that point. So when they confused Yamcha they were assuming he was Goku after training all those years after the Saiyan Arc. They seemed to have accounted for everything correctly, except Super Saiyan. Assuming Yamcha was at around Base Goku before he got SSJ seems about right.
Ya, but Goku got his biggest boosts in the namek saga. Yamcha's power level just had to be withing acceptable perimeters. Base Goku was 8,000 in the saiyan saga, so Yamcha could of easily been 20,000-40,000 and it would still make perfect sense for Gero and 20 to think it might be Goku, especially since they probably wouldn't think anyone else would be that strong. I don't really see any of them beating any of Frieza's forms accept Krillin with a kienzan and Tien with his kikoho. I just didn't get the feeling they could take anything above Frieza's first form in hand to hand combat. Maybe they could maybe they couldn't, it's hard to say.

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Re: Did Raditz have potential? Saiyans in general?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:36 am

Thanos wrote:Supposedly, Raditz is considered a weak low-class Saiyan among low-class Saiyans. Still, he was stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined, and he is related to Goku. It seems like the assumption is that he was a really weak guy, but is it possible that he could've reached Goku's level?
He's only viewed as weak in hindsight, because both as a Saiyan in the Freeza army and as a threat (when he was introduced) he was not weak. Even Goku was weak back then, but we can only make that claim now because we know the heights he has reached. At the time he was strong and Raditz even stronger.

Of course Raditz's potential, just like in a low-class Saiyan like Goku, is there.

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