25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

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Hitiro
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25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:37 pm

I was just strolling around on Youtube where I came across someones very valid argument. Shortly after the death of Vegeta due to him sacrificing himself to kill fat buu. Bulma and the gang attempt to bring back all those who died that day except for the really bad people. At this moment Goku IT's to the spot where they are making the wish and prevents them from using the last two wishes which means they can use the dragonballs 4 months down the line when they need them. After he brings them to the lookout he breaks the news of Vegeta's death and Gohan's supposed death. Why did nobody realize that this wouldn't be a problem seeing as they just wished everyone back?

My assumption was that because Goku couldn't sense Gohan's energy then he naturally assumed he was dead. But then they didn't raise the question as to why he wasn't resurrected by the dragon. In my copy of the manga the wish was to bring everyone who died that day back to life except for the really bad ones. Is it possible that the wish was misinterpreted when they translated it or they decided to shorten it because they didn't want to cram the text in a few small speech bubbles? Or is it possible this is just a mistake on Toriyama's side? Personally from what I've seen from the process of the Manga industry it's hard to believe this completely visible error made it in to the final draft and was printed without the anybody noticing. Then again I haven't really questioned it until it was brought up.

So what is everyone's thoughts on this?

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:51 pm

That's always bugged me and stuck out as one of the glaring rock-stupid moments of the Buu arc. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that Gohan is dead at this point. And it's not as if we're dealing with newbies to Dragon Balls. This group has been using them for years. It makes no sense. Toriyama probably never considered it.
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Bussani » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:42 pm

The English translation of the manga sometimes changes a few lines, but this little oddity is present in the Japanese version as well. We could say that Goku didn't actually hear how the wish was worded, and due to a breakdown in communication and taking Goku's word for it that Gohan's ki couldn't be felt, they never put two and two together...but yeah, it is odd that none of them thought of it. I guess we're all entitled to our dumb moments now and then. And heck, how many of us noticed this the first time around? I don't think I did.
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:37 pm

Bussani wrote:The English translation of the manga sometimes changes a few lines, but this little oddity is present in the Japanese version as well. We could say that Goku didn't actually hear how the wish was worded, and due to a breakdown in communication and taking Goku's word for it that Gohan's ki couldn't be felt, they never put two and two together...but yeah, it is odd that none of them thought of it. I guess we're all entitled to our dumb moments now and then. And heck, how many of us noticed this the first time around? I don't think I did.
Actually that could have very much been the case. If you think about it the others didn't know when Gohan's supposed death was. In fact because Goku has instant transmission they could have assumed that Gohan's death happened after they had made the wish. He did indeed miss what the wish entailed so it's quite possible that Goku got there, missed the wish and still couldn't sense Gohan so he assumed Bulma was just wishing the people that Vegeta killed at the tournament back. If this was intentional then it's a very clever thing Akira Toriyama pulled off. But then again it is highly unlikely that he came up with such a thing and put it within the manga. Most people wouldn't be able to think about it that way so a more simpler approach would be better. It probably is just a fumble on his part at the end of the day.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:06 pm

I don't see how that would mitigate it, though. Gohan would have had to have died right at that exact moment, in between the wish granting and Goku's arrival, which was only the span of a couple of seconds.
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:54 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:I don't see how that would mitigate it, though. Gohan would have had to have died right at that exact moment, in between the wish granting and Goku's arrival, which was only the span of a couple of seconds.
To be fair the transition between two frames of a manga could be up to any amount of time, if you think about it Goku IT'ed almost immediately before the panel of them wishing happened. Considering Goku can travel at the speed of light he should have made it before the first wish happened. But if the wish was taking place as Goku was talking to Piccolo, Krillin and Dende before he IT'ed then the panels were actually running a long side each other. Which makes more sense as to why he missed the first wish. Because we all know that other things are happening else where while we are focused on a particular scene. Time just doesn't freeze everywhere else while that scene is played out. In fact we don't even see Goku entering with his IT, all we see is him saying "Oh no! They've already made a wish", it is unclear as to whether that happened one or two minutes before he arrived. It could have even been 5 minutes before he arrived but as time isn't relative between each panel we can only assume.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:09 am

Well, as you just said, he instantaneously moves just before we see the wish completed, so I see absolutely no reason to think he didn't just arrive, well, instantly, as the name implies. And even if it was as much as a few minutes (which seems practically impossible), it still doesn't gel that anyone would think that Gohan could have been killed in between the wish and Goku's arrival. The characters just all got a hold of the idiot ball, courtesy of Toriyama. I don't think there's any other possible explanation than that.
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Fox666 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:21 am

Since Majin Boo is a "demon", isn't it possible that those who are killed by him float goes to another dimension instead of the afterlife?

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by CaBrPi » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:23 am

Fox666 wrote:Since Majin Boo is a "demon", isn't it possible that those who are killed by him float goes to another dimension instead of the afterlife?
They would still be wished back to life, though. Kuririn, Kame-Sennin, and Chaozu all came back after being killed by Piccolo and his minions.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Hitiro » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:48 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Well, as you just said, he instantaneously moves just before we see the wish completed, so I see absolutely no reason to think he didn't just arrive, well, instantly, as the name implies. And even if it was as much as a few minutes (which seems practically impossible), it still doesn't gel that anyone would think that Gohan could have been killed in between the wish and Goku's arrival. The characters just all got a hold of the idiot ball, courtesy of Toriyama. I don't think there's any other possible explanation than that.
My point was Goku arrived after the wish so the panels of him talking to Dende, Piccolo and Krillin about the sky going dark and the panels where Shenron was summoned and granting the wish were happening in parallel to each other. And there was more dialog with Goku talking about the sky going dark compared to Yamcha coming right out with wishing everyone good back. By the time Goku had finished talking to Dende and located Bulma and the gang it's possible that the wishing had been over a couple of minutes ago.

Goku never tells them when he died, if Goku did show up a couple of minutes after the dragon granted the wish then they could easily assume that Gohan died before the wish was made. And if Gohan had been brought back Goku would have been able to sense his energy so he wouldn't need to tell them he was dead. All of them know, apart from Videl, about Goku and the others ability for sensing Ki so they could have just took it to be what it was. And Videl is a noob when it comes to the dragonballs, she doesn't know how they work or what they are capable of so that rules her out.

Still I agree with you it probably is a blunder on Akira Toriyama's part but it seems like nobody has really noticed it. I only realized the problem when someone pointed it out while I was strolling through Youtube videos. But if Akira intentionally set it up to work out like this then he's a really clever man and deserves credit where it's due.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:19 am

Everyone became mentally retarded in the Boo arc.
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Silver Sinspawn » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:12 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Everyone became mentally retarded in the Boo arc.
^This
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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Michsi » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:53 am

Collective brain-fart theory aside, we do have Krillin doubting Videl's statement that Gohan might live, because they couldn't feel his ki.
That made me think that maybe they trusted their senses more than anything else. I think at this point, sensing ki came as natural to them as sight , smell , touch etc. so it might be something similar to the "only believe what you see" approach.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:42 pm

Michsi wrote:Collective brain-fart theory aside, we do have Krillin doubting Videl's statement that Gohan might live, because they couldn't feel his ki.
That made me think that maybe they trusted their senses more than anything else. I think at this point, sensing ki came as natural to them as sight , smell , touch etc. so it might be something similar to the "only believe what you see" approach.
Even so, none of them even questioned it. It was, like, two minutes after they'd made the wish that Goku told them that Gohan and Vegeta were dead. And yet everyone still started suffering from short-term memory loss, with no-one clocking on even later. Videl was apparently the only one who had a vague sense that Gohan was alive, but Kuririn just refuted it by mentioning that they can't sense his ki.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: 25th Budokai wish and Gohan's death

Post by Michsi » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:07 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote: Even so, none of them even questioned it. It was, like, two minutes after they'd made the wish that Goku told them that Gohan and Vegeta were dead. And yet everyone still started suffering from short-term memory loss, with no-one clocking on even later. Videl was apparently the only one who had a vague sense that Gohan was alive, but Kuririn just refuted it by mentioning that they can't sense his ki.
I'm not denying that this was probably a mistake on Toriyama's part, but you can find an in-universe explanation if you squint really hard. Krillin denying it can taken as having thought about it himself and then dismissing it.

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