Vegeta & Trunks, what the hell have you been doing...

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, I don't know why you keep mentioning whatever the anime says, because that's irrelevant since we're talking about the manga, the primary source in in-universe debates.

I wasn't talking only about the manga...

OK, then. I don't really have an opinion on the anime's version, since I've never even watched it in full. Some people say they look like regular SSjs; others say they look like SSjG2s. Same with DBZ Movie #8. Toei aren't exactly consistent with their depictions of Super Saiyans.

I'd like to assume that they were simply regular SSj, since it seemed like it had been all been left behind in the dust after the fight with second-form/perfect Cell and, then, when Goku proved how bad it was and that SSj was better. But then again, I originally assumed that Gohan was regular SSj in DBZ Movie #10 because, well, he looked like one (no lightning) and apparently the only time Gohan became a SSj2 in that era was at the tournament. But since then, it's come out that he was apparently SSj2. So whatever.

[Michsi]

A while ago there was a similar discussion in which we ended up agreeing that Vegeta (and most likely Trunks too) hadn't reached FSSJ, since when the Cell Jrs. charge at them and he powers up, we see his muscles bulge, which if I'm not mistaken, is a sign of whatever the SSJ stage is called when he first fought Cell. Can't be sure though. I always assumed that since I didn't see him an Trunks being able stay in regular SSJ form, it meant they hadn't reached that level.

[Hitiro]

A while ago there was a similar discussion in which we ended up agreeing that Vegeta (and most likely Trunks too) hadn't reached FSSJ, since when the Cell Jrs. charge at them and he powers up, we see his muscles bulge, which if I'm not mistaken, is a sign of whatever the SSJ stage is called when he first fought Cell. Can't be sure though. I always assumed that since I didn't see him an Trunks being able stay in regular SSJ form, it meant they hadn't reached that level.

But if they did use a graded form then that doesn't mean that they didn't achieve FPSSJ. FPSSJ is just a Saiyan who has mastered SSJ and can prevent the form from being a strain on the Saiyan's energy supply in every day life. If you think about it then that would make the graded forms more viable as they are considered to take a lot more energy then the basic SSJ. If Trunks and Vegeta could master SSJ however the graded SSJ forms would not need as much energy to maintain as it's still a variation of the original SSJ form.

[Saiga]

A while ago there was a similar discussion in which we ended up agreeing that Vegeta (and most likely Trunks too) hadn't reached FSSJ, since when the Cell Jrs. charge at them and he powers up, we see his muscles bulge, which if I'm not mistaken, is a sign of whatever the SSJ stage is called when he first fought Cell. Can't be sure though. I always assumed that since I didn't see him an Trunks being able stay in regular SSJ form, it meant they hadn't reached that level.

We see them in regular Super Saiyan on one of the cover pages, when they are already fighting the Cell Jrs. And Trunks shows the same "Full Power" aura as Goku when he goes back to his timeline and shows his mother.

[Michsi]

But if they did use a graded form then that doesn't mean that they didn't achieve FPSSJ. FPSSJ is just a Saiyan who has mastered SSJ and can prevent the form from being a strain on the Saiyan's energy supply in every day life. If you think about it then that would make the graded forms more viable as they are considered to take a lot more energy then the basic SSJ. If Trunks and Vegeta could master SSJ however the graded SSJ forms would not need as much energy to maintain as it's still a variation of the original SSJ form.

Doesn't FSSJ also imply that you have perfect balance between power and speed? Vegeta's form would indicate that he was still using the less effective stage, the one where he is sacrificing speed for strength.

We see them in regular Super Saiyan on one of the cover pages, when they are already fighting the Cell Jrs. And Trunks shows the same "Full Power" aura as Goku when he goes back to his timeline and shows his mother.

But in the manga, when Vegeta powers up, he looks the same as he did when fought Cell. At it seems so to me. And isn't that auro Trunks displays the same one he and Vegeta had during the fight against Semi Perfcet Cell? Well I don't really pay attention to aura's, but at least it might prove that Trunks managed it.

[Saiga]

We see them in regular Super Saiyan on one of the cover pages, when they are already fighting the Cell Jrs. And Trunks shows the same "Full Power" aura as Goku when he goes back to his timeline and shows his mother.

But in the manga, when Vegeta powers up, he looks the same as he did when fought Cell. At it seems so to me. And isn't that auro Trunks displays the same one he and Vegeta had during the fight against Semi Perfcet Cell? Well I don't really pay attention to aura's, but at least it might prove that Trunks managed it.

The aura's Vegeta and Trunks display are the same as Goku's FPSS Aura before he powers up. When Trunks goes back to his time he shows the aura that Goku displays as a FPSS while powered up.

[Michsi]

The aura's Vegeta and Trunks display are the same as Goku's FPSS Aura before he powers up. When Trunks goes back to his time he shows the aura that Goku displays as a FPSS while powered up.

If you are talking about the edges of the aura being sharper, don't Vegeta and Trunks have the exact same aura when they fought semi-perfect Cell? Vegeta at least has the same type of aura before he entered the RoSat the second time.

[Saiga]

The aura's Vegeta and Trunks display are the same as Goku's FPSS Aura before he powers up. When Trunks goes back to his time he shows the aura that Goku displays as a FPSS while powered up.

If you are talking about the edges of the aura being sharper, don't Vegeta and Trunks have the exact same aura when they fought semi-perfect Cell? Vegeta at least has the same type of aura before he entered the RoSat the second time.

I'm not entirely sure, I havn't read the Semi-Perfect Cell part in the manga. I just know the Cell Games stuff.

[Michsi]

Well that's how it seems to me. The aura Vegeta has when he fights semi-perfect Cell is the same one Goku has when he fights/powers up against Perfect Cell. This aura business has always seemed unreliable to me, I always assumed the shape and form depended on how much power the fighter emits at the moment.

[Hitiro]

But if they did use a graded form then that doesn't mean that they didn't achieve FPSSJ. FPSSJ is just a Saiyan who has mastered SSJ and can prevent the form from being a strain on the Saiyan's energy supply in every day life. If you think about it then that would make the graded forms more viable as they are considered to take a lot more energy then the basic SSJ. If Trunks and Vegeta could master SSJ however the graded SSJ forms would not need as much energy to maintain as it's still a variation of the original SSJ form.

Doesn't FSSJ also imply that you have perfect balance between power and speed? Vegeta's form would indicate that he was still using the less effective stage, the one where he is sacrificing speed for strength.

We see them in regular Super Saiyan on one of the cover pages, when they are already fighting the Cell Jrs. And Trunks shows the same "Full Power" aura as Goku when he goes back to his timeline and shows his mother.

But in the manga, when Vegeta powers up, he looks the same as he did when fought Cell. At it seems so to me. And isn't that auro Trunks displays the same one he and Vegeta had during the fight against Semi Perfcet Cell? Well I don't really pay attention to aura's, but at least it might prove that Trunks managed it.

No, FPSSJ is basically a SSJ who has stayed in the SSJ form for so long they are used to that negative feeling you get from sustaining the transformation. By continuing to hold up the transformation they can determine the necessary energy output needed to maintain the transformation without it straining their powerlevel too much. If you get somebody who's dishing out 5,000 Ki into the transformation every couple of minutes it would be different for Goku because he knows what energy is needed to maintain the form he probably only needs the equivalent of 1,000 Ki for those couple of minutes. Without the need of worrying about maintaining the SSJ form in the middle of battle and becoming fatigue quickly because of the over-expenditure of Ki, the user can fight at their full power and not worry about the consequences of trying to maintain the form for large amounts of time. Basically its about extending the stamina of the user, if they can easily maintain the SSJ form they can use all that energy that they would be wasting, in the battle, however they want and that can still be used to increase your stamina if you choose not to spend it in combat. It also means that the energy is there should they need to increase to a higher powerlevel, however the point of it really is that the user won't need to because they should be fighting at their maximum because they won't have to power up, being already in SSJ.

[Michsi]

No, FPSSJ is basically a SSJ who has stayed in the SSJ form for so long they are used to that negative feeling you get from sustaining the transformation

Basically that would mean that Goku's decision to find a way to effectively combine both speed and strength and to be able to master the SSJ form as if it were a base form were two seperate goals.

In any case, going by that definition, I don't think that neither Vegeta nor Trunks are FPSSJ since we see sign they are able to handle the SSJ form as easy as their base form.

[Hitiro]

No, FPSSJ is basically a SSJ who has stayed in the SSJ form for so long they are used to that negative feeling you get from sustaining the transformation

Basically that would mean that Goku's decision to find a way to effectively combine both speed and strength and to be able to master the SSJ form as if it were a base form were two seperate goals.

In any case, going by that definition, I don't think that neither Vegeta nor Trunks are FPSSJ since we see sign they are able to handle the SSJ form as easy as their base form.

Where is your proof of this? If they were using the graded forms in battle to make up for the difference in strength, because Goku and Gohan were still leagues stronger then them anyway, then it would be hard to tell if they had FPSSJ. Like I said in an earlier post the FPSSJ would also be effective in the graded forms because they would effectively be removing the power consumption from the regular SSJ form but they would still have the power consumption from the graded variation. If we were to make a formula for the energy consumption of the forms we can probably say it would look like this:

EC = SC + GC

Where EC = Energy consumption, SC = The default SSJ consumption and GC = the Graded consmption. Going by this forumula if we lay out SSJ and FPSSJ out next to each other we'd have something like this:

SSJ EC = 5,000 + 0 = 5,000
FPSSJ EC = 1,000 + 0 = 1,000

SSJ Grade 1 EC = 5,000 + 2,500 = 7,500
FPSSJ Grade 1 EC = 1,000 + 2,500 = 3,500

SSJ Grade 2 EC = 5,000 + 5,000 = 10,000
FPSSJ Grade 2 EC = 1,000 + 5,000 = 6,000

We can see here that the FPSSJ ability would also be very helpful to the graded forms so for Vegeta and Trunks who were lacking in strength, they could just use Grade 1 as the power consumption is still less than a SSJ who hasn't mastered the FPSSJ ability. Although it would be pretty easy to tell that they would still have trouble with the form because they would also be using the graded form on top of it. But anyway, while making sure there speed doesn't fall to a margin below their opponents a graded form would be a great deal of help with the addition of the FPSSJ ability.

[Michsi]

Where is your proof of this

The manga. I think this achievement would have been noted since it was a pretty big deal when they showed it with Goku and Gohan.

And I don't really believe in formulas when it comes to DB....

[Hitiro]

Where is your proof of this

The manga. I think this achievement would have been noted since it was a pretty big deal when they showed it with Goku and Gohan.

And I don't really believe in formulas when it comes to DB....

I was using a formula to demonstrate what I meant really, as for the achievement I doubt it would have been noted because it would have been overshadowed by the whole "Gohan is going to be the saviour of the world" thing. It would be really stupid of Vegeta or Trunks not to achieve FPSSJ while they were in the ROSAT the second time as they would have to spend time in their normal lives getting it.

[Michsi]

I was using a formula to demonstrate what I meant really, as for the achievement I doubt it would have been noted because it would have been overshadowed by the whole "Gohan is going to be the saviour of the world" thing. It would be really stupid of Vegeta or Trunks not to achieve FPSSJ while they were in the ROSAT the second time as they would have to spend time in their normal lives getting it.

This is like claiming that tenshinhan knows the kaioken but never uses it because it would be useless. We see them in base form, we have no sign that they can handle ssj like Goku and Gohan.

[Hitiro]

I was using a formula to demonstrate what I meant really, as for the achievement I doubt it would have been noted because it would have been overshadowed by the whole "Gohan is going to be the saviour of the world" thing. It would be really stupid of Vegeta or Trunks not to achieve FPSSJ while they were in the ROSAT the second time as they would have to spend time in their normal lives getting it.

This is like claiming that tenshinhan knows the kaioken but never uses it because it would be useless. We see them in base form, we have no sign that they can handle ssj like Goku and Gohan.

Just because they are in base form doesn't mean that they can't handle SSJ like Goku and Gohan. It is because Goku had the epiphany to master the SSJ form later on in the ROSAT that they were still SSJ when they came out. If Vegeta and Trunks went in there with the full intention of obtaining mastery over the SSJ form and it took them as long as Goku and Gohan then they wouldn't need to come out as SSJ because they would have already effectively mastered it. The fact that Goku and Gohan continued to use it after they came out of the ROSAT could just mean that it was coming to the end of their time in the ROSAT when they had the idea. What would be the point of Vegeta and Trunks maintaining the form for over a year if it takes 2-3 months to master it? They could just return to their base form to rest properly as no matter what Goku and Gohan did there would still be a slight strain on using the SSJ form. And while they were in their base they could have trained more effectively or even transformed and trained in SSJ then go back to resting in their base form.

[Michsi]

Just because they are in base form doesn't mean that they can't handle SSJ like Goku and Gohan. It is because Goku had the epiphany to master the SSJ form later on in the ROSAT that they were still SSJ when they came out. If Vegeta and Trunks went in there with the full intention of obtaining mastery over the SSJ form and it took them as long as Goku and Gohan then they wouldn't need to come out as SSJ because they would have already effectively mastered it. The fact that Goku and Gohan continued to use it after they came out of the ROSAT could just mean that it was coming to the end of their time in the ROSAT when they had the idea. What would be the point of Vegeta and Trunks maintaining the form for over a year if it takes 2-3 months to master it? They could just return to their base form to rest properly as no matter what Goku and Gohan did there would still be a slight strain on using the SSJ form. And while they were in their base they could have trained more effectively or even transformed and trained in SSJ then go back to resting in their base form.

For a long time I assumed Vegeta simply refused to follow Goku's steps due to his pride.

Gohan and Goku maintaining the ssj forns outside of the Rosat probably counted as training, but they still attempted to rest during that time. If even 10 days make a difference than why wouldn't Vegeta and Trunks attmept the same thing, aside from the fact that maybe they couldn't.
And I still don't think it would have gone unmentioned, that Trunks and Vegeta managed to do the same.

[Hitiro]

Just because they are in base form doesn't mean that they can't handle SSJ like Goku and Gohan. It is because Goku had the epiphany to master the SSJ form later on in the ROSAT that they were still SSJ when they came out. If Vegeta and Trunks went in there with the full intention of obtaining mastery over the SSJ form and it took them as long as Goku and Gohan then they wouldn't need to come out as SSJ because they would have already effectively mastered it. The fact that Goku and Gohan continued to use it after they came out of the ROSAT could just mean that it was coming to the end of their time in the ROSAT when they had the idea. What would be the point of Vegeta and Trunks maintaining the form for over a year if it takes 2-3 months to master it? They could just return to their base form to rest properly as no matter what Goku and Gohan did there would still be a slight strain on using the SSJ form. And while they were in their base they could have trained more effectively or even transformed and trained in SSJ then go back to resting in their base form.

For a long time I assumed Vegeta simply refused to follow Goku's steps due to his pride.

Gohan and Goku maintaining the ssj forns outside of the Rosat probably counted as training, but they still attempted to rest during that time. If even 10 days make a difference than why wouldn't Vegeta and Trunks attmept the same thing, aside from the fact that maybe they couldn't.
And I still don't think it would have gone unmentioned, that Trunks and Vegeta managed to do the same.

Why bring up something that has already been accomplished once by another character unless your going to point out something else? Vegeta explained the benefits of removing the strain from the form in the manga. Vegeta and Trunks don't even get the chance to take the spotlight, they're just pushed to the side so that Gohan can take the lead role. Really, what is the need to bring up something that has already been demonstrated? Goku and Vegeta use SSJ2 in the Buu saga yet we don't get dialogue clearly expressing that they have obtained SSJ2 in all those years. Gohan does mention that they must be fighting at SSJ2 to fill up Buu's gauge so fast and Goku teaches Buu about the SSJ forms but those things were all key scenes to do with the plot. If AT wanted to bring up that Vegeta and Trunks had done the same thing the spotlight would of been on them to defeat Cell, not Goku or Gohan.

[Michsi]

Why bring up something that has already been accomplished once by another character unless your going to point out something else?

Simple, to clear things up. They might have tried to use the same method, that doesn't mean they managed to achieve those goals though.

Goku and Vegeta use SSJ2 in the Buu saga yet we don't get dialogue clearly expressing that they have obtained SSJ2 in all those years

We don't need dialog because it's right there in our face. The fssj thing? Not so much. Aside from the "Gohan and Goku made it, so Vegeta and Trunks can do it" argument there is nothing else to prove that Vegeta and Trunks mastered the SSJ form at that point.

If AT wanted to bring up that Vegeta and Trunks had done the same thing the spotlight would of been on them to defeat Cell, not Goku or Gohan.

No, since they were never meant to be the ones to defeat Cell so fssj or not, so even if they did manage to reach FPSSJ, they still would have been made weaker than Goku and Gohan.
The whole point of that part was to show how much more powerfull Goku and Gohan had become.

I don't think it's important either way, since it doesn't change what happened in the story.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The thing is, at that point, the focus was all on Goku, so whether or not Vegeta and/or Trunks had become Full-Power Super Saiyans was irrelevant or unimportant to the story. They wouldn't have even fought if Cell hadn't spawned and subsequently set the Cell Juniors loose on them. Goku and Gohan were much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks whether or not they achieved FPSSj. And once the focus on Goku had been taken off, it was immediately shifted to Gohan, who was even stronger than Goku.

There's no "clearing up" needed in the story because Toriyama probably didn't care about it or it just didn't fit into the story. Hitiro's point about Goku and Vegeta's SSj2 is right because, yes, while it was established that Goku and Vegeta had surpassed Gohan since he'd been slacking off, it was never explicitly stated and only became relatively relevant when they clearly transformed into SSj2s and began fighting. That's when the spotlight was on Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. At the Cell Games, for Vegeta and Trunks, not so much.