Kaio Ken x Super Saiyan

[funrush]

The other day, I was thinking of something. Is it possible for Goku to use the Kaio Ken as a Super Saiyan? If so, how come he never used it? Did it increase strain on his body a lot more than without being a Super Saiyan? I was thinking, if Gohan simply used the Kaio Ken X2 during the Cell Games as a Super Saiyan, he would be as strong as he was as a Super Saiyan 2. Goku as a Super Saiyan using Kaio Ken X8 would put his strength equal to what it would be as a Super Saiyan 3.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that Goku could use it in Super Saiyan, it's just a technique, like the Kamehame-ha. However, I don't think that his body could hold the power. Besides, if we look at the filler scene of Super Kaio-ken, Goku used it so brefly, it gives me the feeling that he used it so briefly because his body couldn't hold the power.

[Super Vegetto]

Kaio Ken x Super Saiyan is probably yust putting strain on body and waste of ki. In filler Goku use Super Kaio Ken and its like 2 sec.

[dario03]

I really wished there had been a stated reason for why Goku doesn't do it. SS is a transformation and while it does use up ki it doesn't seem to be that stressful on the body especially once they master SS and then it doesn't even drain ki much. So really it makes sense for Goku to be able to use KK with SS but he never does in the manga and only once in the anime. I prefer that he doesn't use it (actually I don't even like how he has KK times #) but it would of been nice if he or King Kai had said something that explained why he couldn't/doesn't do it.

[Monkey D Goku]

I really wished there had been a stated reason for why Goku doesn't do it. SS is a transformation and while it does use up ki it doesn't seem to be that stressful on the body especially once they master SS and then it doesn't even drain ki much. So really it makes sense for Goku to be able to use KK with SS but he never does in the manga and only once in the anime. I prefer that he doesn't use it (actually I don't even like how he has KK times #) but it would of been nice if he or King Kai had said something that explained why he couldn't/doesn't do it.

Well I think that's already been explained it's just not a ideal power up when your fighting a enemy equal or stronger than you. Your power only exceeds them in short bursts if you don't finish them off in that short time your body will be tired and maybe even extremely sensitive like what happened to Goku vs Vegeta. I also think using it while ssj or higher for extended periods could have devastating affects on your life span.

I guess it could be useful for that split second that Goku used to catch his opponent of guard.

[Kaboom]

I've just generally thought that since the Kaio-Ken is already such a straining and volatile technique, that using it on top of Super Saiyan, which is itself naturally straining as well, would be next to impossible. Perhaps the only reason Goku could pull it off during the Cell Games era is because, like dario03 said, he'd mastered Super Saiyan and eliminated most of its stress. Even then, he might not be able to pull off anything more than a x2 or x3, and that would eventually be trumped by Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

[dario03]

I really wished there had been a stated reason for why Goku doesn't do it. SS is a transformation and while it does use up ki it doesn't seem to be that stressful on the body especially once they master SS and then it doesn't even drain ki much. So really it makes sense for Goku to be able to use KK with SS but he never does in the manga and only once in the anime. I prefer that he doesn't use it (actually I don't even like how he has KK times #) but it would of been nice if he or King Kai had said something that explained why he couldn't/doesn't do it.

Well I think that's already been explained it's just not a ideal power up when your fighting a enemy equal or stronger than you. Your power only exceeds them in short bursts if you don't finish them off in that short time your body will be tired and maybe even extremely sensitive like what happened to Goku vs Vegeta. I also think using it while ssj or higher for extended periods could have devastating affects on your life span.

I guess it could be useful for that split second that Goku used to catch his opponent of guard.

The thing is that the short boost could be enough to end the fight. How much of a difference a power gap makes isn't consistent and a lot of times we don't know how much of a difference there is. But being twice as powerful as your opponent should let you do a lot of damage. So even if you don't finish them and you used a lot of power you would probably of damaged them so much that their power would drop even more than yours. And thats just assuming you're using the regular KK. If mastering SS made Goku's SS mode as easy to maintain as full powered base form then he should be able to use KK times 20 or even more, maybe even much more.

Its just one of those technical things that doesn't really matter but a set explaination would have been nice. Like maybe somebody could have asked Goku and he could have said something like Mastering SS made him used to the stress but it was still there and KK at minimum doubles his power so going past SS with KK would be like using KKx100 but with only KKx2 benefits and KKx100 is too much to handle. Or he could of said that KK simply won't work with SS ki.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

It really annoys me when fans use the word "filler", if you want an answer, just look at the anime since it was not present in the manga. The answer is yes, Goku can use Super kaioken as it was already shown in the Anime version. The only problem with it is that , yes it was only used for an extremely short amount of time because of the intensity of it. Goku was dead at the time he used it and his body is more durable than when he is alive. If he was alive, then there is no doubt that it would have destroyed his body, but being dead, it was a one shot thing. But even then, it seems he was no match for Paikuhan in any way and only beat him with Shikun Idou (instantaneous kamehameha) when he was off guard.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It really annoys me when fans use the word "filler", if you want an answer, just look at the anime since it was not present in the manga.

I totaly agree with this. Exept if the anime "explanation" contradicts the manga, the answer is there, I believe

[Bussani]

It really annoys me when fans use the word "filler"

That's illogical. No one's saying, "It's filler so it doesn't matter," or anything like that. "This happened in filler," is nothing more than a factual description. It's like getting annoyed at one of Herms' guides for labelling where a piece of information comes from.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No one's saying, "It's filler so it doesn't matter," or anything like that.

I've seen fans saying this lots of times though...

[Saiga]

It really annoys me when fans use the word "filler"

That's illogical. No one's saying, "It's filler so it doesn't matter," or anything like that. "This happened in filler," is nothing more than a factual description. It's like getting annoyed at one of Herms' guides for labelling where a piece of information comes from.

From the way he phrased his paragraph, it sounds like he expects for people to accept the Super Kaio-ken without speculation because it happened in filler.

[Bussani]

I've seen fans saying this lots of times though...

I have, too, but not in this thread. All the people in this thread have done is point out that it is filler, but that hasn't kept them from discussing it.

[SylentEcho]

Guys, let it go.

I totally agree with DBZGTKOSDH that unless the Anime contradicts the manga, then everything that happens in it can be accepted. (Like Goku and Piccolo driving.)

[Deus ex Machina]

I like to think that this "Super Kaio-Ken" technique is only made possible when Goku's body is already dead which allows him to use more dangerous/impractical techniques, like when Goku realized how difficult transforming into a SSJ3 was on his body only after he used it after returning to life.

If you think of it that way you can get away with considering the technique at least plausible, while explaining why Goku never used it again.

[Saiga]

Saying it's possible brings up the question of why he never did it in the manga (or the rest of the anime for that matter). That's why a lot of people want to exclude the scene, because there's no explanation for it. It isn't just because it's filler.

[Akira]

I agree with the in-universe anime explanation that Goku was dead, therefore more durable, and able to use it briefly as a one shot attack. Kaioken is my favorite technique in the entire series, so I have given this much thought. I too believe it would have killed him when alive, and only the combination of being in the afterlife and having fully mastered Super Saiyan allowed him to use the "Super Kaioken".

[hleV]

I believe that both SSJ and KK take power from one's dormant power reserves, just that in the case of SSJ, it's done correctly - through transformation, whilst KK is a technique which forces the user to tap into that power although their body isn't well suited to withstand it. So KK on top of SSJ, while probably possible, would kill or damage one greatly.

[Hitiro]

Well the only reason Goku and the others are able to use such great ki energy is because the SSJ form is a transformation. The clue is in the words, Goku's body could handle up to x20 its maximum output for a short while before the stress would undoubtedly wreck his body. So why does SSJ allow him to handle up to x50 his maximum output? Because the chemistry in his body is altered, we see this from the change in his eye colour, the muscle mass increase and the change in their hair colour. Somewhere within this transformation it allows the user to handle great deals of energy without killing them. So why don't we have Kaioken on top of that? Well the only reason I can think of is that while the transformation handles the stress on the body it is still there but is held back by the change in their bodies.

The stress of maintaining the transformation as well as the energy requirements are mentioned all the way up to the point where Goku and Gohan get FPSSJ which is where they reduce the energy consumption to a minimum so they can fight at their maximum potential for longer. Vegeta points out to Trunks that SSJ is the best form because it minimises the strain on their bodies so we know that the SSJ form does produce a strain on the body. Adding the Kaioken technique on top of the strain that already exists on their bodies while in SSJ would make things worse and would probably wreck their bodies too. So what is the solution? Well the only thing they can really do is undergo another transformation. Vegeta and Trunks tried to push the SSJ form in a different direction and we saw physical changes like the original form but it still increased the strain on their bodies to some extent with the power increase.