Stupid but believable and in character

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OzzyApu
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by OzzyApu » Tue May 29, 2012 12:24 am

DarkPrince_92 wrote:
matt0044 wrote:
DarkPrince_92 wrote:Goku letting Gero go. Would have saved A LOT of trouble.
When did he let him go?
Apparently as a boy when the Red Ribbon Army was destroyed. (Don't remember that). If he killed his ass like he was supposed to, you wouldn't see any Androids coming back to haunt the damn place. But then we wouldn't have cool characters like Trunks running about (well maybe/maybe not). Either way Trunks would serve no purpose.
Hold up. How can you even make this claim?

Goku didn't even know when Gero existed, let alone the androids (except #8) coming back to kill everyone until Trunks told him. What would be worse is letting Gero carry on with his work IMMEDIATELY AFTER Trunks told him about the impending doom so he could have a good fight. In character, but retarded.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by DarkPrince_92 » Tue May 29, 2012 1:08 am

OzzyApu wrote:Hold up. How can you even make this claim?Goku didn't even know when Gero existed
What does Goku know...
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by OzzyApu » Tue May 29, 2012 1:32 am

You're still not considering that Gero wasn't even mentioned as a character in Dragon Ball until the mid stages of Z. Maybe in-universe he was known in scientific circles, but none of that was written at the time of the Red Ribbon army's destruction. No one knew who created the androids in Dragon Ball, unless you count the filler of Dr. Frapp or whoever. But he isn't Dr. Gero - he wasn't the established mastermind by Toriyama yet.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue May 29, 2012 8:12 am

DarkPrince_92 wrote:
OzzyApu wrote:Hold up. How can you even make this claim?Goku didn't even know when Gero existed
What does Goku know...
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by MewtwoZX » Tue May 29, 2012 12:45 pm

DarkPrince_92 wrote:Goku letting Gero go. Would have saved A LOT of trouble.
Finally someone else besides me believes that General White is Dr. Gero.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Godo » Tue May 29, 2012 1:32 pm

Saiga wrote: Also Piccolo thinking that his weights would make a difference against Freeza.
You do mean his third form, right?
Because it would have worked perfectly against Freeza's second form.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue May 29, 2012 2:10 pm

Gokuu charging in to save the robbers from Lunch, when he didn't even know the full story. But 1) he's a sheltered child, and 2) he's, well, Gokuu. He'd been ordered by Roushi to bring him back a girl so he could get trained, and that's what he was going to do. Hi mindset was, "Save girl from perceived thugs = get training".

Gokuu giving Piccolo a Senzu so that he can escape because he wants to fight him again, rather than letting God or Tenshinhan use the Mafuuba to seal him again. Of course, this is his Saiyan bloodlust for battle coming through again, and Gokuu doesn't really care about Earth. He wouldn't know if Piccolo ended up killing a bunch of civilians anyway.

Trunks believing that Super Saiyan Grade III’s strength alone would be enough to defeat Cell, while neglecting the bulky muscle of the form slowing him down. This is understandable because, while he’s been quite cautious throughout the arc, he’s still young and inexperienced, had a sheltered upbringing, and was trained by Gohan, who himself probably doesn’t have much in the way of skill.
OzzyApu wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Rostir wrote:Vegito not killing Buu.
Justification: He couldn't kill Buu because people were inside of him and the Dragon Balls were inert.
Hmm... not a bad explanation, and one that he used, but he really couldn't have just eviscerated Boo and gone to New Namek? I'm pretty sure with Dende alive that this would be a possibility, especially considering that the Kaioshins would have probably showed up to congratulate or something. Kill Boo, go with Dende and Kaioshins to New Namek, wish for Earth back to the way it was, boom - problem's already solved for the most part. Though if his decision was in-character then I can't just bring in more reasonable explanations.
Vegetto didn't know that the Great Elder, Muuri, had upgraded Porunga so he could bring multiple people back to life in one wish. So, to Vegetto, if he'd killed Boo, the most he could do would be teleporting to New Namek, restoring Earth with one wish (if not two, considering how much power bringing back a whole planet would take) and Gohan and Blooma (if Vegeta's smart enough to think about repopulating the planet) with the other two.

So Earth's back to normal, but the only people that'd be on it are Vegetto, Gohan, Blooma, Dende, Mr. Satan, Tenshinhan and Chaozu. And then they all end up dying of starvation or something, or just commit suicide (uptight Blooma being the first probably; I would if I had to get fucked by Chaozu, of all people, although perhaps Vegetto's spunk alone would be enough to kickstart the Earthling race again) because the afterlife isn't that bad and an empty planet would be doomed anyway.
Saiga wrote:Piccolo's brilliant plan of letting himself get shot by #20 and lying around on the ground until Vegeta showed up.

Also Piccolo thinking that his weights would make a difference against Freeza.
No offence, and I'm not being biased here or anything, but seriously, what's your beef with Piccolo? I'll say this now: he is not an inherently stupid character.

And nothing contradicts the notion that his weights may've made a difference against second-form (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) Freeza since, despite the fact that 100kg or whatever it was may not seem like that much of a difference to fighters of over 1 million BP, Freeza still decided to go ahead and transform before they even continued fighting (talking about the manga, btw; in the anime, after Piccolo removed his weights, he whooped Freeza's ass).
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Tue May 29, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by 012yArthur0 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:12 pm

3 Major problems came from Vegeta:

-Cmon Freeza, Transform! I know you're not that wimp.
-Fine, I'll let you absorb the another android
-Falcon Elbow! Now I'll defeat Buu alone!

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue May 29, 2012 2:17 pm

012yArthur0 wrote:-Cmon Freeza, Transform! I know you're not that wimp.
Yeah, that was so stupid. He knew he wasn't winning against Freeza at any rate, and he knew that, like Zarbon, Freeza would get stronger and that would diminish their chances of defeating him. But it was stupid that he was so arrogant as to believe that he wouldn't get that much stronger and thought it'd be preferable to just get his transformation out of the way, rather than focusing on killing him before he'd even get the chance to transform.

Also, him going from believing that Gokuu was a Super Saiyan, then he himself was, then Gohan, then himself again, and finally Gokuu again (yay, you got it right for once, you insufferable moron. :roll: )
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Tue May 29, 2012 2:22 pm

About Piccolo letting himself get shot, I ve seen someone intrepret that scene as him want to sneak past # 20 and not wait for #19 to come to him. It makes more sense and I don't know if there is anything that speaks against it.

Also was it clearly stated that those shoulders blades are 100 kg in that scene?

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue May 29, 2012 2:46 pm

Michsi wrote:Also was it clearly stated that those shoulders blades are 100 kg in that scene?
No, the weight wasn't stated at all (and it was both the turban and the cape that was weighted, btw). I was just making a guess, based on Gokuu's weights at the 23rd TB. But Piccolo can always increase his weights anyway.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Tue May 29, 2012 3:20 pm

DarkPrince_92 wrote:
matt0044 wrote:
DarkPrince_92 wrote:Goku letting Gero go. Would have saved A LOT of trouble.
When did he let him go?
Apparently as a boy when the Red Ribbon Army was destroyed. (Don't remember that). If he killed his ass like he was supposed to, you wouldn't see any Androids coming back to haunt the damn place. But then we wouldn't have cool characters like Trunks running about (well maybe/maybe not). Either way Trunks would serve no purpose.
Um, Goku and Gero never encountered each other in Dragon Ball and that was likely a dub line that said that they met but they really didn't.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Tue May 29, 2012 3:21 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Michsi wrote:Also was it clearly stated that those shoulders blades are 100 kg in that scene?
No, the weight wasn't stated at all (and it was both the turban and the cape that was weighted, btw). I was just making a guess, based on Gokuu's weights at the 23rd TB. But Piccolo can always increase his weights anyway.
This is what I meant. Wouldn't it be far more logical to assume that the weights had been increased? Afterall, Freeza decides to transform after he takes them off, he must have noted a difference.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by OzzyApu » Tue May 29, 2012 3:26 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Vegetto didn't know that the Great Elder, Muuri, had upgraded Porunga so he could bring multiple people back to life in one wish. So, to Vegetto, if he'd killed Boo, the most he could do would be teleporting to New Namek, restoring Earth with one wish (if not two, considering how much power bringing back a whole planet would take) and Gohan and Blooma (if Vegeta's smart enough to think about repopulating the planet) with the other two.

So Earth's back to normal, but the only people that'd be on it are Vegetto, Gohan, Blooma, Dende, Mr. Satan, Tenshinhan and Chaozu. And then they all end up dying of starvation or something, or just commit suicide (uptight Blooma being the first probably; I would if I had to get fucked by Chaozu, of all people, although perhaps Vegetto's spunk alone would be enough to kickstart the Earthling race again) because the afterlife isn't that bad and an empty planet would be doomed anyway.
Vegetto not knowing Muuri upgraded Porunga is fine. I'll take that answer because it's correct. However, 3 wishes means a planet restoration for one (two tops if Vegetto had to guess) and another wish that'd the two Kaioshin, Dende, Vegetto, and Muuri would be sensible enough to figure out. You're also forgetting that Dende - the one now in control of the Earth's Dragon Balls - is still alive. They'd only have to wait 4 months (as Dende stated so to Goku) for Earth's Dragon Balls to return to normal.

So even in the context of Vegetto not killing Boo, that much could have been thought through. Would have sucked for a little bit, but it's a way better chance to take then risking a barrier - which even Vegetto didn't know would work or not until he tried - than just killing Boo in his multiple-absorbed state and having a better shot at Earth's restoration. The Earth was largely intact to begin with, the people were the focus of being wiped out.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue May 29, 2012 4:23 pm

OzzyApu wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Vegetto didn't know that the Great Elder, Muuri, had upgraded Porunga so he could bring multiple people back to life in one wish. So, to Vegetto, if he'd killed Boo, the most he could do would be teleporting to New Namek, restoring Earth with one wish (if not two, considering how much power bringing back a whole planet would take) and Gohan and Blooma (if Vegeta's smart enough to think about repopulating the planet) with the other two.

So Earth's back to normal, but the only people that'd be on it are Vegetto, Gohan, Blooma, Dende, Mr. Satan, Tenshinhan and Chaozu. And then they all end up dying of starvation or something, or just commit suicide (uptight Blooma being the first probably; I would if I had to get fucked by Chaozu, of all people, although perhaps Vegetto's spunk alone would be enough to kickstart the Earthling race again) because the afterlife isn't that bad and an empty planet would be doomed anyway.
Vegetto not knowing Muuri upgraded Porunga is fine. I'll take that answer because it's correct. However, 3 wishes means a planet restoration for one (two tops if Vegetto had to guess) and another wish that'd the two Kaioshin, Dende, Vegetto, and Muuri would be sensible enough to figure out. You're also forgetting that Dende - the one now in control of the Earth's Dragon Balls - is still alive. They'd only have to wait 4 months (as Dende stated so to Goku) for Earth's Dragon Balls to return to normal.

So even in the context of Vegetto not killing Boo, that much could have been thought through. Would have sucked for a little bit, but it's a way better chance to take then risking a barrier - which even Vegetto didn't know would work or not until he tried - than just killing Boo in his multiple-absorbed state and having a better shot at Earth's restoration. The Earth was largely intact to begin with, the people were the focus of being wiped out.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Dende. Unless the Dragon Balls had been destroyed by Boo or Gotenks too. Although that was never stataed, I guess, so it's better not to assume things.

Well, maybe Vegetto's line of thinking was that he wanted some damage control, and believed the best way to do that was risk the gamble (look, this is Gokuu and Vegeta, two arrogant and over-confident Saiyans we're talking about) of surviving Boo's absorption, rescuing his friends, escaping, and then not having to go through the trouble of skipping to New Namek to potentially inconvenience them by using their DBs.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Saiga » Tue May 29, 2012 10:04 pm

Godo wrote: You do mean his third form, right?
Because it would have worked perfectly against Freeza's second form.
Bullshit. He just got absolutely stomped by Freeza's second form, and the weights that he was wearing prior to merging with Nail can't have made a meaningful difference.
Piccolo Daimao wrote:
No offence, and I'm not being biased here or anything, but seriously, what's your beef with Piccolo? I'll say this now: he is not an inherently stupid character.

And nothing contradicts the notion that his weights may've made a difference against second-form (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) Freeza since, despite the fact that 100kg or whatever it was may not seem like that much of a difference to fighters of over 1 million BP, Freeza still decided to go ahead and transform before they even continued fighting (talking about the manga, btw; in the anime, after Piccolo removed his weights, he whooped Freeza's ass).
Just because I think he's an idiot doesn't mean I have a beef with him. Freeza transforming doesn't mean jack, unless you think his first form was below Vegeta and his third form was below... Dende? He just transforms for shits and giggles.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Fox666 » Wed May 30, 2012 1:12 am

Saiga wrote:Bullshit. He just got absolutely stomped by Freeza's second form, and the weights that he was wearing prior to merging with Nail can't have made a meaningful difference.
How do you know? Piccolo may be able to change the weights in proportion to his power. Or the weights someone can hold may not be directly proportional to their power, since Goku could move a mountain during his training with Kame but still had trouble training with weights of 40 tons in the Majin Boo saga.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Wed May 30, 2012 1:35 am

Bullshit. He just got absolutely stomped by Freeza's second form, and the weights that he was wearing prior to merging with Nail can't have made a meaningful difference.
You call stomped someone that got up a little bruised and ready for another round? Freeza transformed after he saw the weights get taken off and have Piccolo claim that he could become stronger . There are two panels dedicated to that action alone, I think the author's intention was very clear and would not have done it without a reason.

Just because I think he's an idiot doesn't mean I have a beef with him. Freeza transforming doesn't mean jack, unless you think his first form was below Vegeta and his third form was below... Dende? He just transforms for shits and giggles.

It's because you always try to paint him as an idiot, sometimes try very hard, that people think you have a beef with him (like I did once) without properly explaining why.
But it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Saiga » Wed May 30, 2012 5:08 am

Fox666 wrote: How do you know? Piccolo may be able to change the weights in proportion to his power. Or the weights someone can hold may not be directly proportional to their power, since Goku could move a mountain during his training with Kame but still had trouble training with weights of 40 tons in the Majin Boo saga.
While an interesting idea, he has never been shown doing that and we see him merge with Nail and then go straight to the fight. So it's safe to assume he didn't magically modify the weight.
Michsi wrote:
You call stomped someone that got up a little bruised and ready for another round? Freeza transformed after he saw the weights get taken off and have Piccolo claim that he could become stronger .There are two panels dedicated to that action alone, I think the author's intention was very clear and would not have done it without a reason.
Yes, he got stomped. After raising his battle power, Freeza was able to effortlessly overwhelm him. I know that Freeza transformed afterwards, but he also transformed after Vegeta told him he'd need to transform. He also can't sense ki, so he has no idea how strong Piccolo is. We don't know the author's intention for that scene so that's a fruitless argument (especially seeing as this is in universe anyway).
Michsi wrote: It's because you always try to paint him as an idiot, sometimes try very hard, that people think you have a beef with him (like I did once) without properly explaining why.
But it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Yeah, I guess I do take it too far. That probably comes from being a huge fan of Piccolo when I was younger and only really played the video games and watched the odd episodes I caught on TV, and being told how he was the smartest character and the team strategist... and then being very disappointed when I actually read the manga and found myself questioning his actions/behaviour at every turn. I'm still a fan of him now, but I can't help but think he's an idiot.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Wed May 30, 2012 6:30 am

Yes, he got stomped. After raising his battle power, Freeza was able to effortlessly overwhelm him. I know that Freeza transformed afterwards, but he also transformed after Vegeta told him he'd need to transform. He also can't sense ki, so he has no idea how strong Piccolo is. We don't know the author's intention for that scene so that's a fruitless argument (especially seeing as this is in universe anyway).
Then we have different oppinions on the meaning of the word stomped. Two good shots that left him a bit flustered but not particulary wounded or impressed and confident enough he could still take Freeza on despite just having witnessed his increase in power first hand.......

How can you say it's a fruitless argument to bring up the author's intention?????? The author's intention is essential in understanding any artwork, especially narrative artwork based on visual representaion. If he spends two panels on something, has characters take note of that, his intention is to make something clear to the audience.
If Freeza could stomp his ass like you say he could than he would have continued to do so. He never transformed without being pushed first. Vegeta matched his strength, proving to be far stronger than he had thought (and goaded him into transforming, maybe Freeza also wanted to see him eat his words ); Piccolo's case ; when Gohan attacked him in his thirs form.
Yeah, I guess I do take it too far. That probably comes from being a huge fan of Piccolo when I was younger and only really played the video games and watched the odd episodes I caught on TV, and being told how he was the smartest character and the team strategist... and then being very disappointed when I actually read the manga and found myself questioning his actions/behaviour at every turn. I'm still a fan of him now, but I can't help but think he's an idiot.
As I said, it's your oppinion and you are entitled to hold on to it, but it's the reasons you give as proof that feel stretched. There is not one character whose action could not be questioned in retrospect and writing doesn't help, but too actively claim he is an idiot without giving proper examples? If anything, I don't see how the anime treated him better than the manga...

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