Stupid but believable and in character

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Saiga
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Saiga » Wed May 30, 2012 7:16 am

Michsi wrote:
Then we have different oppinions on the meaning of the word stomped. Two good shots that left him a bit flustered but not particulary wounded or impressed and confident enough he could still take Freeza on despite just having witnessed his increase in power first hand.......
I say stomped as it "taken down with minimum effort". Yes he got back up, and yes he thought he could take Freeza, but that's why I think he's an idiot.
Michsi wrote: How can you say it's a fruitless argument to bring up the author's intention?????? The author's intention is essential in understanding any artwork, especially narrative artwork based on visual representaion. If he spends two panels on something, has characters take note of that, his intention is to make something clear to the audience.
Because we can't know that. We can never know his intention unless he comes out and says so, and since we don't know what's going through his head to speculate on it is fruitless. And to me, out of universe speculation shouldn't be used to explain in universe events.
Michsi wrote: If Freeza could stomp his ass like you say he could than he would have continued to do so. He never transformed without being pushed first. Vegeta matched his strength, proving to be far stronger than he had thought (and goaded him into transforming, maybe Freeza also wanted to see him eat his words ); Piccolo's case ; when Gohan attacked him in his thirs form.
Vegeta is left winded while Freeza is fine, from that exchange it seems obvious that Freeza doesn't need his transformation and is only doing it because he's sadistic. Which would be the same reason he did so against Piccolo: the sheer sadism of showing how much more powerful he is. He deflected Gohan's attack, and could have obviously killed him with ease, yet he still decided to transform.
Michsi wrote: As I said, it's your oppinion and you are entitled to hold on to it, but it's the reasons you give as proof that feel stretched. There is not one character whose action could not be questioned in retrospect and writing doesn't help, but too actively claim he is an idiot without giving proper examples? If anything, I don't see how the anime treated him better than the manga...
Well, I think it's the same as saying he's the smartest/most strategic without giving examples. And I already have given examples. And it's not that the anime treated him better than the manga, it was that I had only seen a few episodes of the anime so I only knew vague details about the storyline - when I started borrowing the manga from my local library, I was actually able to follow the story line properly for the first time.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Wed May 30, 2012 8:00 am

say stomped as it "taken down with minimum effort".Yes he got back up, and yes he thought he could take Freeza, but that's why I think he's an idiot.
I don't see the minimun effort there....

And do you have proof he was wrong? I'm talking about Freeza in his current form, of course.

Because we can't know that. We can never know his intention unless he comes out and says so, and since we don't know what's going through his head to speculate on it is fruitless. And to me, out of universe speculation shouldn't be used to explain in universe events.
I'm usually ok with people intrepreting things differently, but I am adamant about this. I've been doing comics and fan manga for about 10 years, went to courses for this artform and plan to work in this industry, so I'm very serious when it comes to such matters.
When the author cannot make his intention through his work clear to the audience, then he has failed at communicating his message and story (which can happen) and I do not think this is the case here in any way ,shape or form, especially because we are talking about a story that is very simple and straight forwards about what it's about.

I often put myself in the author's shoes when I discuss the story, and if I had put those panels, specifically created that scene, paused the action for that moment, I would have not done it without a purpose.

And another thing. You can never completely separate out-of-universe factors from the in-unierse events. The author's intention is basically just what he meant for the audience to see , how can one set that aside?

Vegeta is left winded while Freeza is fine, from that exchange it seems obvious that Freeza doesn't need his transformation and is only doing it because he's sadistic. Which would be the same reason he did so against Piccolo: the sheer sadism of showing how much more powerful he is. He deflected Gohan's attack, and could have obviously killed him with ease, yet he still decided to transform.
I disagree. A lot. If it was all about him wanting to humiliate his opponents, why not transform to his ultimate form from the beginning if it's just a play of power.
For me it's simple and easy. He saw Piccolo had more to offer when he took of his weights and didn't want wait and see first if his second form could handle it.
Well, I think it's the same as saying he's the smartest/most strategic without giving examples. And I already have given examples. And it's not that the anime treated him better than the manga, it was that I had only seen a few episodes of the anime so I only knew vague details about the storyline - when I started borrowing the manga from my local library, I was actually able to follow the story line properly for the first time.

What? I did give examples. Maybe at some point I stopped so as not to repeat myself over and over again, but then again there weren't many to disagree with (not saying you are the only one to think this) concerning this but I'd be willing to debate the subject again. But I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed May 30, 2012 4:56 pm

I think Michsi's already summed up my arguments anyway, but in case anything was missed, I'll just lay it out here.
Saiga wrote:
Godo wrote:You do mean his third form, right?
Because it would have worked perfectly against Freeza's second form.
Bullshit. He just got absolutely stomped by Freeza's second form, and the weights that he was wearing prior to merging with Nail can't have made a meaningful difference.
You must have a different definition of "stomped" then, because Freeza just got two good shots in that shocked him due to the sudden increase in strength and left him a bit flustered with a couple of scuffs, but he still got right back up and was confident (not to mention the fact that he can sense ki) that he could go for Round 2. Nothing's contradicted here: a shocked Freeza says sourly, "Heh...I didn't know Namekians made jokes...", Gohan cries, "We can win!", and then Freeza decides to transform.

Everything in the story points to Piccolo's weights making quite some difference against Freeza, so I don't know how on earth you could interpret that otherwise. It really doesn't get simpler than that.
Saiga wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:No offence, and I'm not being biased here or anything, but seriously, what's your beef with Piccolo? I'll say this now: he is not an inherently stupid character.

And nothing contradicts the notion that his weights may've made a difference against second-form (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) Freeza since, despite the fact that 100kg or whatever it was may not seem like that much of a difference to fighters of over 1 million BP, Freeza still decided to go ahead and transform before they even continued fighting (talking about the manga, btw; in the anime, after Piccolo removed his weights, he whooped Freeza's ass).
Just because I think he's an idiot doesn't mean I have a beef with him. Freeza transforming doesn't mean jack, unless you think his first form was below Vegeta and his third form was below... Dende? He just transforms for shits and giggles.
OK, maybe you don't have a beef with him, but as was aforementioned, you do seem to be trying pretty hard to claim that Piccolo's an idiot when you haven't made any convincing arguments yet. Yeah, he's not perfect, but one or two mistakes doesn't mean that he's automatically an idiot. And he could've increased his weights before he merged with Nail (he did spend six days training with Kaiou on a planet x10 the gravity of Earth), to balance with his increasing strength.

Your comparison is flawed. Freeza transformed because 1) Vegeta goaded him on to, claiming that they could still win and he wouldn't change that much, and 2) Freeza himself says that Vegeta had proved he wasn't entirely bluffing about his power increase, so there'd still be a possibility that the three of them ganging up could actually defeat him. Kuririn makes mention to note, "Yeah, Vegeta's gotten so strong, we might actually have a shot at this! But then...why does Freeza look so calm?", and right after, Vegeta tells Freeza to transform and, sure enough, he does. He would've done anyway, of course.

He later went to his third form because, twice, he'd been pushed to the brink by an enraged Gohan, and he was afraid at how fast Gohan and Vegeta were progressing and that they might actually become Super Saiyans after long, so he wanted to transform just in case. He says this in the story itself; how the fuck did you miss this?

That's the reason I thought you have a beef with Piccolo, because there's nothing in the actual story that supports your hypothesis, and if anything, it suggests the stark opposite. Of course, he has his moments, like everyone else, but he's constantly touted as one of the most observational and tactical characters in the series (in Gokuu's absence, he often takes his place as the spearhead of the group), and Boo, a main villain, even bothered to absorb him for his smarts. Even a lunkhead like Boo realized how he could use that vital asset to his advantage, and Toriyama bothered to make that point. You haven't really given us any examples other than the select few, and we've given you a bunch of examples in other threads that you can search through the archives for.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by CaBrPi » Wed May 30, 2012 6:09 pm

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Piccolo, after merging with Nail, was stronger than Freeza's second form.

As for his "plan" to rescue Goku, I always figured it'd go like this: Piccolo allows himself to be wounded, thus luring #20 (who Piccolo is actually more powerful than) into a false sense of security, and, with #20 distracted, launch a sneak attack on either #20 or #19. Attacking #19 directly would allow him to rescue Goku and then run, while attacking #20 would allow Piccolo to destroy him more quickly than a simple head-on attack, and then turn his attention to #19.

Of course, Piccolo didn't know that Vegeta had become a Super Saiyan at this point, and simply figured he'd have to save both him and Goku at the same time.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed May 30, 2012 6:21 pm

CaBrPi wrote:Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Piccolo, after merging with Nail, was stronger than Freeza's second form.

As for his "plan" to rescue Goku, I always figured it'd go like this: Piccolo allows himself to be wounded, thus luring #20 (who Piccolo is actually more powerful than) into a false sense of security, and, with #20 distracted, launch a sneak attack on either #20 or #19. Attacking #19 directly would allow him to rescue Goku and then run, while attacking #20 would allow Piccolo to destroy him more quickly than a simple head-on attack, and then turn his attention to #19.

Of course, Piccolo didn't know that Vegeta had become a Super Saiyan at this point, and simply figured he'd have to save both him and Goku at the same time.
Of course, it would've been much easier for Piccolo to just kill both #19 and #20 (so we damn well know he can do it in the blink of an eye). But I guess he fell victim to Toriyama's poor writing (plot contrivances, dramatic effect, you know the detail).
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed May 30, 2012 6:24 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:But I guess he fell victim to Toriyama's poor writing (plot contrivances, dramatic effect, you know the detail).
Why is the all-new Super Saiyan Vegeta on-the-rescue bad? Why would same-old Piccolo be a better choice?
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Insertclevername » Wed May 30, 2012 7:22 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:But I guess he fell victim to Toriyama's poor writing (plot contrivances, dramatic effect, you know the detail).
Why is the all-new Super Saiyan Vegeta on-the-rescue bad? Why would same-old Piccolo be a better choice?
Maybe he is saying that its poor because Toriyama had to sacrifice the credibility and presence of one particular character in order to show off another.
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:56 pm

Insertclevername wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:But I guess he fell victim to Toriyama's poor writing (plot contrivances, dramatic effect, you know the detail).
Why is the all-new Super Saiyan Vegeta on-the-rescue bad? Why would same-old Piccolo be a better choice?
Maybe he is saying that its poor because Toriyama had to sacrifice the credibility and presence of one particular character in order to show off another.
It would've worked if Gero (20) blocked them and then BAM, Vegeta busts in without Piccolo's "clever" trick.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Mystic Gohan » Thu May 31, 2012 1:24 am

Goku letting Freeza live even after killing his bestfriend, because that is just how Goku roles. Hey maybe if i show him some kindness, he can join us and be a good guy. Worked with Vegeta and Piccolo and Ten, why not Freeza eh?

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Thu May 31, 2012 6:38 am

Mystic Gohan wrote:Goku letting Freeza live even after killing his bestfriend, because that is just how Goku roles. Hey maybe if i show him some kindness, he can join us and be a good guy. Worked with Vegeta and Piccolo and Ten, why not Freeza eh?
I think Freeza getting spared was cruel mercy since his pride and ego has been shot and is now a shell of his former self.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu May 31, 2012 9:48 am

Insertclevername wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:But I guess he fell victim to Toriyama's poor writing (plot contrivances, dramatic effect, you know the detail).
Why is the all-new Super Saiyan Vegeta on-the-rescue bad? Why would same-old Piccolo be a better choice?
Maybe he is saying that its poor because Toriyama had to sacrifice the credibility and presence of one particular character in order to show off another.
Yes, basically. Toriyama made Piccolo's plan sound absolutely retarded just so he could build up drama for Super Saiyan Vegeta and, later, Piccolo "surprisingly" painting the landscape with #20's arse.
matt0044 wrote:It would've worked if Gero (20) blocked them and then BAM, Vegeta busts in without Piccolo's "clever" trick.
This. Why did Toriyama unnecessarily write himself into so many corners? It's like at the end of the Freeza arc, where he invented the rule of not being able to wish back those who'd died of natural cases with the DBs, when he could've just not mentioned that and the Great Elder being revived would actually make sense. Or the debacle over whether Gohan was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, when Toriyama should've damn well made him SS2 so it would be consistent with the story and all that statements that contradict the visual evidence of him being SS.
Mystic Gohan wrote:Goku letting Freeza live even after killing his bestfriend, because that is just how Goku roles. Hey maybe if i show him some kindness, he can join us and be a good guy. Worked with Vegeta and Piccolo and Ten, why not Freeza eh?
That's not why he let him live (btw, Gokuu never showed Ten mercy, and he spared Piccolo and Vegeta's lives because he wanted to fight them again). He gave him mercy by allowing him to go 100% because he wanted the ability to defeat "the strongest guy in the universe" at full power, so he could humiliate him even further. That's arguably more cruel than just killing the guy right off.

If you're talking about when he gave Freeza some of his own ki after he's accidentally sliced him in half, Gokuu just couldn't stand to hear Freeza's pained pleas (we literally see Gokuu struggling over this decision, unlike the other times).
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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Thu May 31, 2012 3:51 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote: This. Why did Toriyama unnecessarily write himself into so many corners? It's like at the end of the Freeza arc, where he invented the rule of not being able to wish back those who'd died of natural cases with the DBs, when he could've just not mentioned that and the Great Elder being revived would actually make sense. Or the debacle over whether Gohan was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, when Toriyama should've damn well made him SS2 so it would be consistent with the story and all that statements that contradict the visual evidence of him being SS.
And he could've wrote that the Great Elder could've been revived for a limited amount of borrowed time before passing from old age once more with Kami and Kaio not exactly being sure if it'd work since it hadn't been done before or in a LONG time during Kami's time as God.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Michsi » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:12 am

As for his "plan" to rescue Goku, I always figured it'd go like this: Piccolo allows himself to be wounded, thus luring #20 (who Piccolo is actually more powerful than) into a false sense of security, and, with #20 distracted, launch a sneak attack on either #20 or #19. Attacking #19 directly would allow him to rescue Goku and then run, while attacking #20 would allow Piccolo to destroy him more quickly than a simple head-on attack, and then turn his attention to #19.

Of course, Piccolo didn't know that Vegeta had become a Super Saiyan at this point, and simply figured he'd have to save both him and Goku at the same time.
This is the alternative interpretation that I was talking about. Due to me reading perhaps too much into how it was translated into german, I thought he meant to lure the androids to him. But him planning to sneak past #20 makes much more sense.
Goku letting Freeza live even after killing his bestfriend, because that is just how Goku roles. Hey maybe if i show him some kindness, he can join us and be a good guy. Worked with Vegeta and Piccolo and Ten, why not Freeza eh?
I think he just simply doesn't want to kill anybody. He probably believed Freeza could never fight again with those injuries. He did a similar thing with Nappa. He didn't kill him, but made it so that he presumably could never fight again.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:11 pm

matt0044 wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:This. Why did Toriyama unnecessarily write himself into so many corners? It's like at the end of the Freeza arc, where he invented the rule of not being able to wish back those who'd died of natural cases with the DBs, when he could've just not mentioned that and the Great Elder being revived would actually make sense. Or the debacle over whether Gohan was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, when Toriyama should've damn well made him SS2 so it would be consistent with the story and all that statements that contradict the visual evidence of him being SS.
And he could've wrote that the Great Elder could've been revived for a limited amount of borrowed time before passing from old age once more with Kami and Kaio not exactly being sure if it'd work since it hadn't been done before or in a LONG time during Kami's time as God.
Yep, maybe that too.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:32 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote: Gokuu giving Piccolo a Senzu so that he can escape because he wants to fight him again, rather than letting God or Tenshinhan use the Mafuuba to seal him again. Of course, this is his Saiyan bloodlust for battle coming through again, and Gokuu doesn't really care about Earth. He wouldn't know if Piccolo ended up killing a bunch of civilians anyway.
To be fair, they might've (and they did) need Kami alive to not let the Dragon Balls go.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:34 pm

matt0044 wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Gokuu giving Piccolo a Senzu so that he can escape because he wants to fight him again, rather than letting God or Tenshinhan use the Mafuuba to seal him again. Of course, this is his Saiyan bloodlust for battle coming through again, and Gokuu doesn't really care about Earth. He wouldn't know if Piccolo ended up killing a bunch of civilians anyway.
To be fair, they might've (and they did) need Kami alive to not let the Dragon Balls go.
That was clearly a secondary reason, and Gokuu still could've let God or Tenshinhan seal Piccolo in the Mafuuba, so Piccolo would remain imprisoned and neither of them would have to die.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:38 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
matt0044 wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Gokuu giving Piccolo a Senzu so that he can escape because he wants to fight him again, rather than letting God or Tenshinhan use the Mafuuba to seal him again. Of course, this is his Saiyan bloodlust for battle coming through again, and Gokuu doesn't really care about Earth. He wouldn't know if Piccolo ended up killing a bunch of civilians anyway.
To be fair, they might've (and they did) need Kami alive to not let the Dragon Balls go.
That was clearly a secondary reason, and Gokuu still could've let God or Tenshinhan seal Piccolo in the Mafuuba, so Piccolo would remain imprisoned and neither of them would have to die.
Don't those who use the Mafuba die? I doubt anyone would want to risk it.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Kami could do it without dying.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by matt0044 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:31 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Kami could do it without dying.
Maybe. But with what? And would he really survive? As Shen, he was likely risking himself.

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Re: Stupid but believable and in character

Post by CaBrPi » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:36 pm

Well, Kami managed to stay alive, and so did Piccolo after reversing it.

And even if he would've died normally, just have Tenshinhan use it and then use the Dragon Balls to bring him back. It's not like he was ever actually brought back by the Earth balls in the series anyway.

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