Explain this to me

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Wasted Wisher
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Explain this to me

Post by Wasted Wisher » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:21 am

Someone explain this for me.

http://www.comicvine.com/goku/29-19765/ ... 42/?page=3

The 40 tons scene actually happened in the comic?
This has got to be from a doujinshi, right?

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hleV
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by hleV » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:28 am

No, it's from the original manga.

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dbgtFO
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:28 am

It's in the manga all right.
EDIT: ...Seems like I was Ninja'ed :lol:

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Wasted Wisher » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:41 am

Well...
between this and somebody else winning the 300-million lotto jackpot...
my faith in a just universe has IMPLODED completely.

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Pantalones
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Pantalones » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:23 am

I don't get how those people on that forum can call someone a "troll" just for pointing out that we don't know what the gravity of the planet was (which is a fact, nobody ever said anything about what the gravity was there) and that it might actually be higher than Earth's since North Kaio's planet was 10x, this is also an afterlife planet like that one, and Goku's picked it for training purposes. True, there's nothing really suggesting that it does have high gravity (and assuming it has something like 100x would just be dumb), but there's just as much if not less suggesting it would have Earth gravity just because. Looks like the Internet has forgotten what that word was supposed to mean (or it's just become "meaningless general insult #25987" like so many other words before it)...

It's also kind of silly that people seem to be assuming that 40 tons must be Goku's maximum lifting weight because of that scene, even though it's actually just too much for base Goku to continue training with while floating in midair (bukujutsu consumes energy, remember?)... at least without going Super Saiyan first. He has no difficulty with that weight after transforming (and I'm not sure if it's in the manga, but I know the anime shows him zipping around even faster than before despite the increased weights after going Super Saiyan. In other words, 40 tons feels like a lot less weight to SSj Goku than the initial weight--what was it, 4 tons with one on each arm?--did to base Goku.) And that's just in SSj1; he already has SSj2 by this point and most likely SSj3 as well.

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Dorexx » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:05 am

I'm surprised no one there brought this up, but Baba was on the planet for a while. She wouldn't resist a bigger gravity. (or was that not shown in the manga?)
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Herms » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:46 am

Dorexx wrote:I'm surprised no one there brought this up, but Baba was on the planet for a while. She wouldn't resist a bigger gravity. (or was that not shown in the manga?)
I'm pretty sure that is in the manga. We also see a dog running around (world's strongest dog?), and a generic squid-like alien. The planet is supposed to be Heaven, according to the SEG: Story Guide and various other guidebooks. The SEG: Story Guide's training guide does say Goku's weight training while using Bukujutsu is a lot harder than normal.

I never got what the big deal with this scene was. Even if regular Goku can't lift 40 tons, so what?
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Xyex » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:16 pm

Herms wrote:I never got what the big deal with this scene was. Even if regular Goku can't lift 40 tons, so what?
The problem is that people feel it's too inconsistent, since we saw Raditz lifting up a truck (easily 4 to 5 tons) back in the Saiyan saga (which Gohan says that Goku could do, too). Goku, by this point, is easly more than 5,000 times stronger than Raditz but apparently can't handle just 10x the weight.

Of course, this is only an issue if you just glance at the situation, and don't take the entirety of the situations into account. What with Raditz just standing around when he lifts the truck, while Goku's flying. And Raditz actually lifts the truck, he's not wearing it at the ends of his limbs. Plus, nothing in the series ever states that direct physical force and power (the ability to push/pull/lift/etc) increases proportionally to ones ki level.

Then, of course, you have all of the fanboys who like to insist that SSJ Goku on Namek could one-shot any comic book character you could possibly name, and that Base Goku by this point is 100x more powerful than that, and this scene stands in defiance of it, which riles them up.
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:13 pm

Someone with a better knowledge base of human anatomy and... umm... "self-better-ing" can probably chime in (hey, kendamu...!), but I feel it's kinda silly to go with "WEIGHT LIFTING ABILITY = OVERALL END ALL BE ALL" definition in terms of "strength".

I mean, we saw this with Trunks and Super Saiyan Grade III. His power was fantastic, sure... but he lost all his speed, and never would have won.

Someone building up their muscles to the point of being able to comfortably life 40 tons of weights is great and all, but what about everything else? What about their speed? What about their instinct? What about their fighting experience? What about their special techniques?

Weight lifting is certainly one part of a greater whole in terms of sizing up someone's overall ability level, and it's definitely going to help to a certain degree (building up your core strength and endurance, etc.), but if you stop defining there, you're missing the entire point of what these shonen characters are all about.
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:46 pm

Xyex wrote:
Herms wrote:I never got what the big deal with this scene was. Even if regular Goku can't lift 40 tons, so what?
The problem is that people feel it's too inconsistent, since we saw Raditz lifting up a truck (easily 4 to 5 tons) back in the Saiyan saga (which Gohan says that Goku could do, too). Goku, by this point, is easly more than 5,000 times stronger than Raditz but apparently can't handle just 10x the weight.
When did Raditz lift up a truck? The only truck shown at any point during the Raditz storyline was the farmer's, and he never touched it at all. In fact, as far as lifting something, I don't recall Raditz lifting anything heavier than Gohan the entire time he was on Earth.

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Xyex » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:01 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:When did Raditz lift up a truck? The only truck shown at any point during the Raditz storyline was the farmer's, and he never touched it at all. In fact, as far as lifting something, I don't recall Raditz lifting anything heavier than Gohan the entire time he was on Earth.
Might be anime only (sounds like it probably is) but here:
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Herms » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:05 pm

Yeah, Raditz lifting a truck is filler. Though come to think of it, how much would giant Piccolo weigh, since Goku was able to flip him over (though I do like to think of giant Piccolo as more like a giant balloon who wouldn't weigh as much as a regular object that size)? Or what about that giant-ass rock Goku and Kuririn push a bit during their training under Kame-sennin?
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Beji » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:09 pm

When I saw that link I only wanted to read the first one but I was sucked in. :?
That being said I don't know why there is such a fuss over things like this, people insulting back and forth, I've only used this forum before so when I see anything even close to that it is broken up immediately. The way they mention power levels though I couldn't help but wonder is it true? I didn't think when Goku became a Super Saiyan he became literally 50 times stronger, faster, etc. I thought it was more his "battle power" like overall not literally 50 times every stat.
VegettoEX wrote:Someone with a better knowledge base of human anatomy and... umm... "self-better-ing" can probably chime in (hey, kendamu...!), but I feel it's kinda silly to go with "WEIGHT LIFTING ABILITY = OVERALL END ALL BE ALL" definition in terms of "strength".
I mean, we saw this with Trunks and Super Saiyan Grade III. His power was fantastic, sure... but he lost all his speed, and never would have won.
Someone building up their muscles to the point of being able to comfortably life 40 tons of weights is great and all, but what about everything else? What about their speed? What about their instinct? What about their fighting experience? What about their special techniques?...
To what VegettoEX was saying if you have one person who lifts 400 lbs just because they can do that doesn't make them all around the best in strength(we're talking about physical strength). It is hard to base it off human anatomy though there are some similarities because is the real world or Dragon Ball because there are repercussions that aren't in Dragon Ball. When they train with weights and high gravity they are all mostly speed training. As in they are using higher weights and making it so they can handle them for multiple multiple(thousands of) reps at high speeds too so their speed and strength increase. In the real world even if you weight lift you cant attach weights like that to your arms and legs because we hit a limit where the joints cannot take it anymore(and cartilage). Also in Dragon Ball characters can increase their strength (what they can lift) multiple times and not become any more bulky or slow. In real life we can obtain 2(3?) different kinds of muscle one that causes you to have more stamina and speed and the other is more slow but powerful. The only thing I could compare it to in Dragon Ball was like you said Super Saiyan Grade III. I've never seen a page in the manga or even in filler where Goku goes for his "max" in something. How much you can lift max can be a part of strength but more useful strength is how many times you can and that doesn't even determine how useful it could be. A combination of speed, strength and, stamina is what I feel "battle power" would be. But when I hear someone's power doubling I don't like to think its the strength, speed and stamina all at once(unless it is then please tell me).

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:18 pm

Herms wrote:
Dorexx wrote:I'm surprised no one there brought this up, but Baba was on the planet for a while. She wouldn't resist a bigger gravity. (or was that not shown in the manga?)
I'm pretty sure that is in the manga. We also see a dog running around (world's strongest dog?), and a generic squid-like alien.
Was she? I don't recall Baba appearing in that training scene; only Gokuu, North Kaiou, South Kaiou, and the aforementioned dog and squid-like alien, who I assume are some kinds of anthropomorphic warriors, or beings native to that area of the afterlife (like Bubbles, who was alive but not dead, and kept his body when he died).

But either way, you're right. It doesn't matter. This stuff isn't meant to be thought about too hard.
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Herms » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:25 pm

She's not around in the training scene, but I think she's around when Goku tells Gohan he's coming back for the tournament.
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:28 pm

Herms wrote:She's not around in the training scene, but I think she's around when Goku tells Gohan he's coming back for the tournament.
...Nope, I don't think so.
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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Fox666 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:03 pm

I checked the manga and couldn't find her.

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:09 pm

^That is correct, Uranai Baba was not present in the manga.
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Herms wrote:Yeah, Raditz lifting a truck is filler. Though come to think of it, how much would giant Piccolo weigh, since Goku was able to flip him over (though I do like to think of giant Piccolo as more like a giant balloon who wouldn't weigh as much as a regular object that size)? Or what about that giant-ass rock Goku and Kuririn push a bit during their training under Kame-sennin?
Piccolo did seem to weigh that much considering the floor being affected by his weight both when he was thrown on it and then when he grew even bigger.

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Toriyama-sama » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:09 pm

Herms wrote:Or what about that giant-ass rock Goku and Kuririn push a bit during their training under Kame-sennin?
That was an overwhelmingly impressive feat at that point in the story seeing as how that rock easily weights around a thousand tons, but when I think of Tao Pai Pai throwing a stone pillar over a distance of a few thousand kilometers it looks like child's play :shock: :o

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Re: Explain this to me

Post by Bussani » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:13 pm

The two people in that thread just shout back and forth at one another, neither wanting to take the time to explain their point clearly. One of them is saying that tons are a unit of mass, and since we don't know the gravity, we can't work out the weight; the other is saying that the tons given are the weight itself, meaning the gravity doesn't matter. To be honest, I think the noun "tons" can be used both ways in everyday conversation, and I find dictionary definitions that support both points of views.

Personally, I kind of doubt that Toriyama was talking about mass and expected people to think, "Ah, but the gravity must be higher here, so that 40 tons actually weighs a lot more!" Why would he make it that obtuse? Not only that, but we know that the planet in question is Heaven, and I think it would be weird for Heaven to have some absurd level of gravity. We may not see Uranai Baba there in the manga, but are we supposed to believe that she could never come to Heaven because she'd be crushed by it? Some Heaven that would be.

I have a potentially tricky question: how is this part written in Japanese? Does Japan use the word "ton" itself, and if so, is it more common for it to mean a weight or a mass when used over there?
VegettoEX wrote:I mean, we saw this with Trunks and Super Saiyan Grade III. His power was fantastic, sure... but he lost all his speed, and never would have won.

Someone building up their muscles to the point of being able to comfortably life 40 tons of weights is great and all, but what about everything else? What about their speed? What about their instinct? What about their fighting experience? What about their special techniques?
Yeah, you'd definitely have to take other areas into account. But that said, if you're going to take everything into account, you're going to have to wonder about lifting strength eventually.
Though come to think of it, how much would giant Piccolo weigh, since Goku was able to flip him over (though I do like to think of giant Piccolo as more like a giant balloon who wouldn't weigh as much as a regular object that size)?
Hm, I'm sure I figured this out once before. Piccolo seems to have at least doubled in size twice over when Goku flipped him, but volume gets multiplied by eight every time a three dimensional object doubles in size. So it should be Piccolo's weight multiplied by eight, multiplied by eight. That's just over eight tons. Of course, I'm just estimating his height from the manga, so maybe we could say ten tons to be safe. This is a lot more than, say, Goku's own weight on Kaio's planet--or even during his 100 times Earth's gravity training for that matter; but I suppose there's a difference between flipping a giant guy with some leverage and actually weighing that much yourself.
Herms wrote:Or what about that giant-ass rock Goku and Kuririn push a bit during their training under Kame-sennin?
I usually like to ignore that one since it isn't technically a lifting feat. I can push a car, but I can't lift one. Obviously a car is designed to be easily pushed and a giant rock isn't, but still...

Estimating its size compared to Kame-sennin, and assuming it's solid granite for the sake of argument, it probably weighed nearly 900 tons. Even taking into account that it isn't strictly a lifting feat, this and Taopaipai's pillar throw are still probably the two most inconsistent feats of physical strength shown in the manga.
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