Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:16 am

Fox666 wrote:That's not the case because Boo taunted Gotenks to transform in Super Saiyan 3 before absorbing him.
Oh yes, I forgot that. So, either Boo somehow negates the Super Saiyan 3 time weakness, or it's a plot hole. I choose the first one.
Fox666 wrote: Here is it for reference:

Image
If you was to ask me, I would say that it is clear that they are stronger than Piccolo based on this page. But that is just my opinion.
If the kids were Piccolo's opponents I would agree, since he would be scared. But now, he just saw them powering up to full power for the first time, and he saw two 7 & 8 year-old brats having that much power. It could be taken that they are stronger than him, but not nessesarily. Depends of how the individual views the page.
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Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.
Goku confirms that Boo takes the appearance of the strongest in him.
Not really. I used to think the same, but I asked Herms and it is just a way of saying that Piccolo is predominant here, and it has nothing to do with strength. It could be, but it is not what Goku is saying here.
I see. So, again, it depends on how the individual views the scene. I choose to take it as getting the strongest guy's characteristics, but with some characteristics from the rest inside (Boo had five fingers, and Piccolo has four. Also, dbgtFO's post), or the one that lowers his power (in Dai Kaioshin's case), since from what we have seen, Boo takes the form of the last person in him, and Piccolo was there before Goten & Trunks (they were Gotenks before).
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by caejones » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:21 am

Yikes.
Is it safe to say, then, that there are no straight-up facts one way or the other?
The most compelling evidence would be whether Piccolo's reaction meant they were stronger than him, or if Goku's statements mean the strongest absorbee is dominant in Buu's appearance... and both of those are quite subjective.

Though personally, I don't remember a power threshold for half-saiyans becoming SSJ being mentioned anywhere, so all we have to go on regarding whether or not Goten and Trunks would be a match for the likes of Freeza is their sparring with Gohan/Vegeta, and the fight with #18... and so far as I remember (should probably check the strength checker to be sure), there's nothing about any of those that implies the ones we know to be above Freeza (Gohan/Vegeta/18) weren't holding back heavily.

I expect they could take Freeza with no more trouble than SSJ Goku had; it just does seem arguable either way.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bussani » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:27 pm

caejones wrote:Yikes.
Is it safe to say, then, that there are no straight-up facts one way or the other?
Pretty much. I don't feel like there's enough evidence either way for me to have much of an opinion on the matter. If I were trying to keep battle powers small, I'd easily be able to believe that Trunks and Goten were a lot weaker, but I don't have any real incentive to keep them small, so...I'm just keeping an open mind and entertaining various possibilities.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Fox666 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 pm

caejones wrote:Though personally, I don't remember a power threshold for half-saiyans becoming SSJ being mentioned anywhere, so all we have to go on regarding whether or not Goten and Trunks would be a match for the likes of Freeza is their sparring with Gohan/Vegeta, and the fight with #18... and so far as I remember (should probably check the strength checker to be sure), there's nothing about any of those that implies the ones we know to be above Freeza (Gohan/Vegeta/18) weren't holding back heavily.
Let me see where Goten and Trunks strength has been mentioned... Trunks couldn't handle the 150G room without Super Saiyan; No.18 had the upper hand while they happened to be fighting in their base forms, while she decided to end it quickly after Trunks fired a blast on her; Boo took the appearance of Piccolo after Gotenks fusion timed out (but he doesn't necessarily takes the form of the strongest being, as seen with South and Dai Kaioshins); Piccolo said he would be of no help against Evil Boo after Gotenks fusion ended, but I guess that's open for interpretation; the Daizenshuu says Trunks fought evenly with No.18 but doesn't specify which form, and suggests a few times that Goten is on par with Gohan. That's everything I can remember now.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Mystic Gohan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:42 am

The daizenshuu says that Trunks fought on par with Android 18. The manga shows him being at a disadvantage, but Trunks blames it on the suit. Even when they turned SSjin and were superior to Android 18, they were still at a disadvantage. This is why I go with Base Boys ~ Android 18. I'm leaning towards making them superior also...

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:46 pm

I personally have the boys about Android 18 in SSJ, but still weaker. I think 18 could have beat them if she went all out. I also have Piccolo much stronger then them.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by FNF » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:10 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:I personally have the boys about Android 18 in SSJ, but still weaker. I think 18 could have beat them if she went all out. I also have Piccolo much stronger then them.
So wait. Trunks holds back A FUCKLOAD and his blast is still enough to obliterate c18 judging from her reaction. Yet, for some unknown reason, c18 is all of a sudden stronger than Trunks at full power? WhatisthisIdon'teven.
Hell, even c18 being a lot stronger than base Trunks is mere speculation.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bussani » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:38 pm

Aren't the ideas that Trunks was holding back "a fuckload" and that #18 would have been obliterated by the blast also speculation? I mean, it's all open to interpretation.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by FNF » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Bussani wrote:Aren't the ideas that Trunks was holding back "a fuckload" and that #18 would have been obliterated by the blast also speculation? I mean, it's all open to interpretation.
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

I don't see how there's much, if any, room to interpret it any way other than the kids being worlds ahead of c18.
Neither do I see how it's speculation at all to say they are fairly close to c18 in their regular forms and miles ahead of her in their SSjin forms when coupled with the pre-budokai training.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Kaboom » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:54 pm

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I guess.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Xyex » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:35 pm

FNF wrote:I don't see how there's much, if any, room to interpret it any way other than the kids being worlds ahead of c18.
There's plenty of room. In fact, there's so much room I don't see how it's not possible.

As I see it, if Base Goten is 10, and Trunks 11, then 18 is at least 350. (And the boy's SSJs would be 500 and 550, of couse.)
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:41 pm

FNF wrote:
Bussani wrote:Aren't the ideas that Trunks was holding back "a fuckload" and that #18 would have been obliterated by the blast also speculation? I mean, it's all open to interpretation.
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

I don't see how there's much, if any, room to interpret it any way other than the kids being worlds ahead of c18.
Neither do I see how it's speculation at all to say they are fairly close to c18 in their regular forms and miles ahead of her in their SSjin forms when coupled with the pre-budokai training.
Just because the attack was deadly doesn't mean they were way stronger. Similar to how Piccolo's Makankosappo was deadly to Raditz, but Piccolo wasn't stronger then him. Vegeta's Final Flash was deadly to Cell, but he wasn't stronger then Cell. How would the boys know how strong 18 is. They can only approximate from what they heard. 18 was just surprised at how strong they are. The boys also underestimated Boo several times, and Trunks even tried to say Gohan was about the same and then a little stronger then Gotenks, when Gohan was way stronger. 18 didn't let Vegeta's big bang attack hit her. It would have been dangerous so she dodged it. If 18 went full power, i'm certain she would kill the boys. The boys also believed Vegeta was stronger then Boo and that if they teamed with Vegeta they would have killed Fat Boo. I find the boys words can't be trusted.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by FNF » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:09 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
FNF wrote:
Bussani wrote:Aren't the ideas that Trunks was holding back "a fuckload" and that #18 would have been obliterated by the blast also speculation? I mean, it's all open to interpretation.
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

I don't see how there's much, if any, room to interpret it any way other than the kids being worlds ahead of c18.
Neither do I see how it's speculation at all to say they are fairly close to c18 in their regular forms and miles ahead of her in their SSjin forms when coupled with the pre-budokai training.
Just because the attack was deadly doesn't mean they were way stronger. Similar to how Piccolo's Makankosappo was deadly to Raditz, but Piccolo wasn't stronger then him. Vegeta's Final Flash was deadly to Cell, but he wasn't stronger then Cell. How would the boys know how strong 18 is. They can only approximate from what they heard. 18 was just surprised at how strong they are. The boys also underestimated Boo several times, and Trunks even tried to say Gohan was about the same and then a little stronger then Gotenks, when Gohan was way stronger. 18 didn't let Vegeta's big bang attack hit her. It would have been dangerous so she dodged it. If 18 went full power, i'm certain she would kill the boys. The boys also believed Vegeta was stronger then Boo and that if they teamed with Vegeta they would have killed Fat Boo. I find the boys words can't be trusted.
Junk logic.

The comparisons you listed are irrelevant because they don't share the same circumstances. The attacks either had properties that could kill the opponent or had the power behind it to kill them.
The main difference between those examples and the kids vs c18 was that Trunks held back A LOT and yet c18 was still forced to dodge the attack.

To cover the other points;
- There's a little thing called 'the narrative.' The kids refer to c18 being 'stronger than their dads a long time ago' and that should be good enough for the reader to assume they do know approximately how strong c18 was. There's no proof to suggest otherwise. Even the fact that they have been predisposed to the idea that Super Saiyan is pretty normal for the Saiyans goes against you.
- Of course she was surprised. She was almost blown to bits by their 'outrageous power' which unknown to her, was them holding back.
- Once again pointless comparisons. Everyone of them underestimated Boo and there's nothing to suggest Trunks was that wrong about the gap between Gotenks and Gohan. After absorbing Gotenks, Boo could completely trounce Gohan as opposed to Gohan being all over Boo before. Hell, Gotenks was gaining the upper hand vs Boo before he defused.
Vegeta was going all out vs c18 so terrible comparison again.
- Speculation. Back it up.
- Boo's power is awfully hard to sense properly. Goten and Trunks weren't the only ones underestimate him. Vegeta had fought Boo so he could judge Boo's power.
- No characters can be trusted then. They have all made massive mistakes and underestimations. It's just an excuse to nerf the kids and act as if c18 is relevant.


Xyex, really? It's all just pure speculation. There isn't any real interpreting going on that puts the kids that far below c18 in their regular forms never mind them being weaker than c18 as SSjins.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Kaboom » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:35 pm

Does it really matter whether or not the boys are stronger than 18... or anyone else? They served no meaningful role in the entire arc other than 'Fusion Fodder.'
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:49 pm

FNF wrote: Junk logic.

The comparisons you listed are irrelevant because they don't share the same circumstances. The attacks either had properties that could kill the opponent or had the power behind it to kill them.
The main difference between those examples and the kids vs c18 was that Trunks held back A LOT and yet c18 was still forced to dodge the attack.

To cover the other points;
- There's a little thing called 'the narrative.' The kids refer to c18 being 'stronger than their dads a long time ago' and that should be good enough for the reader to assume they do know approximately how strong c18 was. There's no proof to suggest otherwise. Even the fact that they have been predisposed to the idea that Super Saiyan is pretty normal for the Saiyans goes against you.
- Of course she was surprised. She was almost blown to bits by their 'outrageous power' which unknown to her, was them holding back.
- Once again pointless comparisons. Everyone of them underestimated Boo and there's nothing to suggest Trunks was that wrong about the gap between Gotenks and Gohan. After absorbing Gotenks, Boo could completely trounce Gohan as opposed to Gohan being all over Boo before. Hell, Gotenks was gaining the upper hand vs Boo before he defused.
Vegeta was going all out vs c18 so terrible comparison again.
- Speculation. Back it up.
- Boo's power is awfully hard to sense properly. Goten and Trunks weren't the only ones underestimate him. Vegeta had fought Boo so he could judge Boo's power.
- No characters can be trusted then. They have all made massive mistakes and underestimations. It's just an excuse to nerf the kids and act as if c18 is relevant.


Xyex, really? It's all just pure speculation. There isn't any real interpreting going on that puts the kids that far below c18 in their regular forms never mind them being weaker than c18 as SSjins.
There is no way the kids can know how strong 18 is, they are not scouters. They can only guess. 18 was holding back against Vegeta so they really have no idea. Nowhere does it say Trunks held back a lot, all we know is that he didn't use his full power. I see how I was wrong with Boo, I totally forgot about that though so thanks for reminding me. No way was Trunks right about his estimation, he was just being cocky as he always is, Goten even said he was wrong and that Gohan was a lot stronger then SSJ3 Gotenks. Goten is way more trustworthy as he isn't nearly as cocky as Trunks. Also after the BBA from Vegeta, 18 said that Vegeta was holding back and he confirmed it. 18 was just surprised that they were so strong, she didn't flat out say omg they are stronger. She was holding back as well. Looking at a few scans I see how they could be stronger then 18, but I can't see it in base form. Also considering 18 barely even trying shattered Vegeta's arm and broke the other. I change my mind when I said it would be one sided. It would be pretty even.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:00 pm

dbzfan7 wrote: There is no way the kids can know how strong 18 is, they are not scouters.
Scouters couldn't tell how strong 18 is -_-

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:00 pm

hleV wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: There is no way the kids can know how strong 18 is, they are not scouters.
Scouters couldn't tell how strong 18 is -_-
Man I'm on an off day haha.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by FNF » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:20 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
FNF wrote: Junk logic.

The comparisons you listed are irrelevant because they don't share the same circumstances. The attacks either had properties that could kill the opponent or had the power behind it to kill them.
The main difference between those examples and the kids vs c18 was that Trunks held back A LOT and yet c18 was still forced to dodge the attack.

To cover the other points;
- There's a little thing called 'the narrative.' The kids refer to c18 being 'stronger than their dads a long time ago' and that should be good enough for the reader to assume they do know approximately how strong c18 was. There's no proof to suggest otherwise. Even the fact that they have been predisposed to the idea that Super Saiyan is pretty normal for the Saiyans goes against you.
- Of course she was surprised. She was almost blown to bits by their 'outrageous power' which unknown to her, was them holding back.
- Once again pointless comparisons. Everyone of them underestimated Boo and there's nothing to suggest Trunks was that wrong about the gap between Gotenks and Gohan. After absorbing Gotenks, Boo could completely trounce Gohan as opposed to Gohan being all over Boo before. Hell, Gotenks was gaining the upper hand vs Boo before he defused.
Vegeta was going all out vs c18 so terrible comparison again.
- Speculation. Back it up.
- Boo's power is awfully hard to sense properly. Goten and Trunks weren't the only ones underestimate him. Vegeta had fought Boo so he could judge Boo's power.
- No characters can be trusted then. They have all made massive mistakes and underestimations. It's just an excuse to nerf the kids and act as if c18 is relevant.


Xyex, really? It's all just pure speculation. There isn't any real interpreting going on that puts the kids that far below c18 in their regular forms never mind them being weaker than c18 as SSjins.
There is no way the kids can know how strong 18 is, they are not scouters. They can only guess. 18 was holding back against Vegeta so they really have no idea. Nowhere does it say Trunks held back a lot, all we know is that he didn't use his full power. I see how I was wrong with Boo, I totally forgot about that though so thanks for reminding me. No way was Trunks right about his estimation, he was just being cocky as he always is, Goten even said he was wrong and that Gohan was a lot stronger then SSJ3 Gotenks. Goten is way more trustworthy as he isn't nearly as cocky as Trunks. Also after the BBA from Vegeta, 18 said that Vegeta was holding back and he confirmed it. 18 was just surprised that they were so strong, she didn't flat out say omg they are stronger. She was holding back as well. Looking at a few scans I see how they could be stronger then 18, but I can't see it in base form. Also considering 18 barely even trying shattered Vegeta's arm and broke the other. I change my mind when I said it would be one sided. It would be pretty even.
...and what puts c18 levels or even just A level above the base kids never mind stronger than the SSjin kids? I mean seriously. Where's the proof?
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Kaboom » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:23 pm

There's no irrefutable proof one way OR the other. This one boils down to interpretation and opinion.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by FNF » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:42 pm

Kaboom wrote:There's no irrefutable proof one way OR the other. This one boils down to interpretation and opinion.
What suggests c18>SSjin kids?
What suggests c18 holding back almost all of her true power?

You see where i'm getting at? Nothing suggests the above yet almost everything suggests the opposite.
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