Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Kaboom » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:31 pm

FNF wrote:What suggests c18>SSjin kids?
What suggests c18 holding back almost all of her true power?

You see where I'm getting at? Nothing suggests the above yet almost everything suggests the opposite.
So says you. But it's fine if other people want to interpret things differently.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bussani » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:09 am

FNF wrote:I don't see how there's much, if any, room to interpret it any way other than the kids being worlds ahead of c18.
Neither do I see how it's speculation at all to say they are fairly close to c18 in their regular forms and miles ahead of her in their SSjin forms when coupled with the pre-budokai training.
You said it yourself:
FNF wrote:his blast is still enough to obliterate c18 judging from her reaction.
I actually get the same impression as you--that the boys were stronger than #18 when they fired that blast--but this part is clearly an interpretation rather than a fact. Just how much of their power they were holding back is also a bit of a guess, but it was this part that I was mostly getting at.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Xyex » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:54 am

FNF wrote:Xyex, really? It's all just pure speculation.
Yes, really.
FNF wrote:There isn't any real interpreting going on that puts the kids that far below c18 in their regular forms never mind them being weaker than c18 as SSjins.
There's absolutely nothing that suggests otherwise, except the rather absurd notion that 18 was using her full power for the entirety of her fight against Mighty Mask. There's no reason she would be, and if the boys had been anywhere near 18's level in their base states we'd have gotten much bigger shock reactions from 18 and the others who knew her that were still in the audience. But 18, while surprised that there was an unknown human with significant power, more than any other human she knew, didn't in the slightest consider it any sort of problem.
Bussani wrote:
FNF wrote:his blast is still enough to obliterate c18 judging from her reaction.
I actually get the same impression as you--that the boys were stronger than #18 when they fired that blast--but this part is clearly an interpretation rather than a fact. Just how much of their power they were holding back is also a bit of a guess, but it was this part that I was mostly getting at.
This. Exactly this. Some see 18's reactions as "OMG, I have to dodge or I'll die!" followed by "This is dangerous, those boys could kill me!" while I, among others, see her reaction as "That could really hurt if it hits, I better get out of the way." followed by "If one of those hits the stadium a lot of people would be killed, I'd better put a stop to this quickly, before it gets out of hand."

The former results in SSJ Kids >>>>> 18, while the latter, at best, is SSJ Kids > 18, and still also allows for SSJ Kids < 18.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Toadster » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Here's a thought, concerning Buu absorbing Gotenks when he's SSJ3; maybe he did that so he'd have access to his full power right away? What if he absorbed Gotenks when he was a SSJ1? Would that mean he's stuck having to draw power from SSJ1 Gotenks and is screwed out of accessing his further power if he's unable to draw power past an absorbee's current state?

What if he absorbed Vegetto (and Vegetto didn't put up a barrier) when Vegetto's SSJ1? Potara fusions are permanent, so he'd never defuse. Let's say that Vegetto does have access to SSJ3. If Buu absorbed Vegetto as a SSJ1, would that mean he'd never be able to access Vegetto's full potential? He absolutely has to absorb him at SSJ3 in order to obtain Vegetto's full power?

I don't think it's right for Vegetto to not obtain a Saiyan's full capacity just because he absorbed them in a weaker state. That's why I think even though the kids were in base form inside of Buu, he still had access to their full power.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:02 pm

Trunks' weight = 30 kg*
Goku's weight = 62 kg*
Trunks(regular state) could barely move around in 150x gravity(weight 4.5 metric tons).
Goku, with a battle power of no more than 90,000, was able to freely move around in 100x gravity(weight 6 metric tons).

So logically Trunks' battle power in his regular stage should be less than 90,000, while his Super Saiyan state should be less than 4,500,000...

I don't personally buy that and take it as a result of Toriyama not paying attention to the details.

I've always seen the kids as way superior to #18 due to stuff already mentioned. If they are as strong as her in the basic states? I've started to doubt that. It does seem likely that #18 was simply pulling her punches until she found out she was dealing with the boys, at which point she was ready to cut loose.
Given the smirk on her face, when realizing she was up against the boys it does seem like she was confident she could win.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bussani » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:27 pm

Toadster wrote:I don't think it's right for Vegetto to not obtain a Saiyan's full capacity just because he absorbed them in a weaker state. That's why I think even though the kids were in base form inside of Buu, he still had access to their full power.
I could believe either way, personally. I'd be fine with Buu needing to goad someone into bringing out their full power before he could absorb them and steal it. I'm not sure it does work that way, but it wouldn't bother me.
dbgtFO wrote:Trunks' weight = 30 kg*
Goku's weight = 62 kg*
Trunks(regular state) could barely move around in 150x gravity(weight 4.5 metric tons).
Goku, with a battle power of no more than 90,000, was able to freely move around in 100x gravity(weight 6 metric tons).

So logically Trunks' battle power in his regular stage should be less than 90,000, while his Super Saiyan state should be less than 4,500,000...
Haha. I've never thought about it like that before, but I wish I had.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Mystic Gohan » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:26 pm

Not sure if I posted in the thread. It seems to me as if the kids are fighting at a disadvantage in base. The suit is blamed. Even when they turn SSjin, they still feel they are at a disadvantage. Not from power as they scare Android 18 shitless from a suppressed ki blast, but because of the suit. That being said, I see nothing wrong with the base boys being on par with 18. The Daizenshuu backs me up.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:43 am

Mystic Gohan wrote:I see nothing wrong with the base boys being on par with 18. The Daizenshuu backs me up.
Daizenshuu doesn't back you up because it didn't specify in which form the boys are on par with #18.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Mystic Gohan » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:59 am

hleV wrote:
Mystic Gohan wrote:I see nothing wrong with the base boys being on par with 18. The Daizenshuu backs me up.
Daizenshuu doesn't back you up because it didn't specify in which form the boys are on par with #18.
Well they certainly weren't on par in SSjin lol. That ki blast that they had to suppress else they might have killed her implies to me that they are far superior lol.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Fox666 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:10 am

Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by caejones » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:09 pm

It comes down to "could that ki blast have killed 18?"
Which is not given an explicit answer.

The idea of calculating Trunks' battle power based on the weight differences is pretty clever. :)
If it makes sense in context, though, then fusion is a crazy power boost, isn't it? The absolute minimum power for Freeza's final form would be >100 million (using 1% in a form stronger than his >1 million form), right? So if SSJ Goten and Trunks are in the 4.5 million range, Gotenks would have to be something like (Goten+Trunks)*100, minimum.
Which, between fusion and SSJ3 doesn't actually sound that bad, now that I think about it. But it really doesn't seem consistent enough with what we're shown.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:06 pm

If you go with Trunks not being able to withstand 150g because of his power ant not because of being unused to Gravity Chamber, then you should also assume that Vegeta's power dropped marginally as now he needs SSJ to train under 150g when before he trained under 300g in base.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:52 pm

hleV wrote:If you go with Trunks not being able to withstand 150g because of his power ant not because of being unused to Gravity Chamber, then you should also assume that Vegeta's power dropped marginally as now he needs SSJ to train under 150g when before he trained under 300g in base.
Maybe he only trains as a Super Saiyan, and that he was only warming up.
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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:01 pm

Insertclevername wrote:
hleV wrote:If you go with Trunks not being able to withstand 150g because of his power ant not because of being unused to Gravity Chamber, then you should also assume that Vegeta's power dropped marginally as now he needs SSJ to train under 150g when before he trained under 300g in base.
Maybe he only trains as a Super Saiyan, and that he was only warming up.
Maybe Trunks wasn't used to the Gravity Chamber.

See my point?

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bando » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:20 pm

FNF wrote:
Kaboom wrote:There's no irrefutable proof one way OR the other. This one boils down to interpretation and opinion.
What suggests c18>SSjin kids?
What suggests c18 holding back almost all of her true power?

You see where i'm getting at? Nothing suggests the above yet almost everything suggests the opposite.
Cause Goten and Trunks aren't Goku. : P

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Fox666 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:02 pm

hleV wrote:Maybe Trunks wasn't used to the Gravity Chamber.
For the sake of it, Pui-pui tought that increasing the gravity would help him against Vegeta... but if the effects of gravity are based only on power, why would it make any difference? If your ass is being kicked at 1G, you are gonna have your ass kicked in 10G...

Or a more solid evidence, Yamcha seems to have the same trouble as Goku had at first time in Kaio's planet, despite being about as strong as Raditz who supposedly lived in Vegeta planet for a while.

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:39 pm

Fox666 wrote:
hleV wrote:Maybe Trunks wasn't used to the Gravity Chamber.
For the sake of it, Pui-pui tought that increasing the gravity would help him against Vegeta... but if the effects of gravity are based only on power, why would it make any difference? If your ass is being kicked at 1G, you are gonna have your ass kicked in 10G...

Or a more solid evidence, Yamcha seems to have the same trouble as Goku had at first time in Kaio's planet, despite being about as strong as Raditz who supposedly lived in Vegeta planet for a while.

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”
This sums it up pretty well. I hope the argument about basing Trunks' power on his performance under 150g dies now.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Mystic Gohan » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Fox666 wrote:Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...
See that was never stated though. She says that they aren't ordinary humans, but unlike Trunks, she never explicitly says that she's holding back. Plus if she was, then she could increase her power just a bit and finish them off. It's too convenient that she can't win, yet is holding back.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by hleV » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:38 pm

Mystic Gohan wrote:
Fox666 wrote:Someone else could say the same about No.18 and their base forms...
See that was never stated though. She says that they aren't ordinary humans, but unlike Trunks, she never explicitly says that she's holding back. Plus if she was, then she could increase her power just a bit and finish them off. It's too convenient that she can't win, yet is holding back.
When nothing is stated, it all comes down to using logic. And logic tells me that #18 wouldn't use her full power (which is hundreds of millions times higher than ordinary human's) against an unordinary human.

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Re: Goten, Trunks and Android 18.

Post by Bando » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:34 pm

Yet, she still felt the need to use a ki blast.

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