If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

[Dabooyaka]

I always thought Piccolo quit out of respect. Nobody felt any Ki from either him, or Kibito. It's impossible for Piccolo to quit out of fear from Kaioshin's power, when nobody can read his Ki.
Even Kaioshin ponders the whole thing, and figures out why Piccolo quit. It was out of respect.

[Bussani]

I always thought Piccolo quit out of respect. Nobody felt any Ki from either him, or Kibito. It's impossible for Piccolo to quit out of fear from Kaioshin's power, when nobody can read his Ki.
Even Kaioshin ponders the whole thing, and figures out why Piccolo quit. It was out of respect.

It's also possible that he knew how strong Kaioshin was because he figured out who he was. Of course, even if that were the case, he could still be overestimating him.

[Kaboom]

Not likely, since he didn't have that part right either. He thought he was the Grand Kaio.

[Bussani]

Hm, I forgot about that... I guess quitting out of respect does make the most sense, except for the way it's worded in Japanese being a normal "he's way stronger than me" sort of line. Unless Piccolo assumed the Grand Kaio was also stronger than him (hell, Goku did in filler).

[Herms]

I always thought Piccolo quit out of respect. Nobody felt any Ki from either him, or Kibito. It's impossible for Piccolo to quit out of fear from Kaioshin's power, when nobody can read his Ki.

That's not quite right. Goku and co all instantly notice that Kaioshin and Kibito are strong enough to potentially give them trouble. Vegeta says they haven't been able to "estimate" Kaioshin's strength, but they clearly think it's unusually high, they just can't tell exactly how high. Not to mention that since Piccolo does have knowledge of the Dai-Kaio and Kaioshin, then he unlike the rest of the gang might have more concrete information to base his assessment of Kaioshin's strength on.

Even Kaioshin ponders the whole thing, and figures out why Piccolo quit. It was out of respect.

You're assuming that "Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo" and "Piccolo suspected who Kaioshin was" are mutually exclusive, when there's no reason for them to be. Indeed, to me the most obvious reading of the scene is that Piccolo suspects his opponent is an upper god and therefore far more powerful than him. It's like if Yamcha at the 23rd TB had suspected Shen's identity and quit right away. Kaioshin doesn't think to himself that Piccolo let him win, or in any way threw the fight, merely that Piccolo might have realized who he was. Considering how amazed and freaked out Kaioshin is later on when he sees that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta are more powerful than him, nothing in his demeanor during or after his match with Piccolo indicates that he thinks Piccolo might be stronger. Sure, he might have just unknowingly been spared an ass-whooping, but what evidence is there for this? Not to repeat myself, but Piccolo flat-out says Kaioshin is stronger, and there's nothing to indicate Kaioshin is actually weaker. The adult Saiyans are the ones who are hyped up for being stronger than Kaioshin; Piccolo doesn't get the same treatment.

Overall, I admit that there's no smoking gun evidence in the series proving Kaioshin's superiority (since Piccolo's line can still be explained away as a lie/mistake if one is so inclined), but the continuous resurrection of this topic obviously has more to do with people liking Piccolo far more than Kaioshin than anything else (much like the Goten/Trunks vs No.18 debate).

[In Brightest Day]

Piccolo meeting the actual Grand Kaio that we see in the Anime could have potentially been hilarious.

[Titan]

I always thought Piccolo quit out of respect. Nobody felt any Ki from either him, or Kibito. It's impossible for Piccolo to quit out of fear from Kaioshin's power, when nobody can read his Ki.

That's not quite right. Goku and co all instantly notice that Kaioshin and Kibito are strong enough to potentially give them trouble. Vegeta says they haven't been able to "estimate" Kaioshin's strength, but they clearly think it's unusually high, they just can't tell exactly how high. Not to mention that since Piccolo does have knowledge of the Dai-Kaio and Kaioshin, then he unlike the rest of the gang might have more concrete information to base his assessment of Kaioshin's strength on.

Even Kaioshin ponders the whole thing, and figures out why Piccolo quit. It was out of respect.

You're assuming that "Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo" and "Piccolo suspected who Kaioshin was" are mutually exclusive, when there's no reason for them to be. Indeed, to me the most obvious reading of the scene is that Piccolo suspects his opponent is an upper god and therefore far more powerful than him. It's like if Yamcha at the 23rd TB had suspected Shen's identity and quit right away. Kaioshin doesn't think to himself that Piccolo let him win, or in any way threw the fight, merely that Piccolo might have realized who he was. Considering how amazed and freaked out Kaioshin is later on when he sees that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta are more powerful than him, nothing in his demeanor during or after his match with Piccolo indicates that he thinks Piccolo might be stronger. Sure, he might have just unknowingly been spared an ass-whooping, but what evidence is there for this? Not to repeat myself, but Piccolo flat-out says Kaioshin is stronger, and there's nothing to indicate Kaioshin is actually weaker. The adult Saiyans are the ones who are hyped up for being stronger than Kaioshin; Piccolo doesn't get the same treatment.

Overall, I admit that there's no smoking gun evidence in the series proving Kaioshin's superiority (since Piccolo's line can still be explained away as a lie/mistake if one is so inclined), but the continuous resurrection of this topic obviously has more to do with people liking Piccolo far more than Kaioshin than anything else (much like the Goten/Trunks vs No.18 debate).

Nice post!
Totally agree with you.
It seems Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo as stated by the Daizenshuu, however, the writing was so bad in the final arc that people got a little bit confused.

[Fizzer]

I suspect that Piccolo and Kaioshin both assumed that Kaioshin was the more powerful of the two. Even if Piccolo is physically stronger though, Kaioshin has godly powers that Piccolo doesn't, so it could easily have both those that made Piccolo think he couldn't win, or Kaioshin's could have used his powers to make Piccolo forfeit by making him feel an overwhelming fear and respect or something like that.

[Dabooyaka]

The thing is that nobody was able to sense how strong Kaioshin was. His power, as well as Kibito's was not known. Piccolo doesn't know how strong Kaioshin really is, so it's impossible that he quit because He is weaker. Him quitting out of respect makes the most sense..

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kaioshin actually told him to "relax and enjoy the fight" or something along those lines, but Piccolo still opted to quit. I always just assumed he was too scared to bother taking a chance. While the others were unable to tell how strong he was, it's very possible that Piccolo was not only able to sense his "godly aura", but his power as well. Piccolo actually says Kaioshin's stronger than him, so I just take it for what it is.

[Zillamon51]

Piccolo doesn't back down from stronger opponents. He wasn't reduced to a trembling amateur by Frieza, Cell, or the Androids. If Supreme Kai was just some random alien, Piccolo wouldn't have quit no matter how strong he was. He fully expected to be facing the likes of Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta in the tournament after all. The only reason Piccolo quit was out of respect because he sensed he was facing a higher diety.

As to which one of them is stronger, who knows? None of the Z-fighters can accurately sense Supreme Kai's power, AND Supreme Kai sucks at gauging their power as well. He is continually shocked at how strong the Saiyans are. He also seems intimidated by Dabura, who he has previous knowledge of. Is Dabura > Supreme Kai? And if Dabura = Perfect Cell, the question is how much stronger has Piccolo become since the Cell Games. I don't see Piccolo turning tail in a fight with Dabura, just as he wouldn't if Cell had been resurrected somehow. The only villain shown to have really rattled Piccolo is Super Buu at the lookout, and he's far stronger than Supreme Kai or just about anyone else.

[Saiga]

Piccolo doesn't back down from stronger opponents. He wasn't reduced to a trembling amateur by Freeza, Cell, or the Androids.

Yes he was. With both Cell and Freeza. The only reason he put up any sort of fight in those cases was desperation. Which he really doesn't have in a tournament match with no stakes.

[In Brightest Day]

Basically what Saiga said. This idea that someone is an "amateur" because they are terrified of someone who could kill them without batting an eye is pretty funny, though.

[Cold Skin]

I mean, just for convenience's sake they make his Kami side to emerge (it had been pretty much GONE since his "I am not Kami nor Piccolo" line).

That depends on your own interpretation.
In the French translation of the latest Anime Comics so far (after Cell is dead), Piccolo does speaks of himself as being both Piccolo and God when thinking about information that predates their fusion.
He specifically says about Goku: "He gave me a senzu after I had tried to kill him. He even rejected my offer to take my place as God".

So despite remaining mostly Piccolo, it seems possible that he does possess, fully accept and listen to the part of God in him.
If his memories of God trigger a "don't mess with the Almighty Gods of the Gods" reminiscence, you can bet he'll feel it and act accordingly.

[dprez]

I like to think that Piccolo is stronger, because I believe the base saiyans are probably stronger than Kaioshin, and I don't see any of the saiyans defeating Piccolo without using super saiyan.

The line could easily mean, "he's stronger I have no chance", but it could also just as easily mean, "he's a freakin God of Gods I am not going to fight him." Since everyone seamed confused as to why Piccolo forfeited, Kaioshin must've not been exuding any power. I'd say Piccolo quit because of Kaioshin's rank and status, not his power. Of course, this doesn't mean Piccolo didn't expect a lot of power from this guy. In the end I just don't believe Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Interesting. What is it that leads you to think the Base Saiyans are probably stronger than Kaioshin but not Piccolo? Just curious.

[CaBrPi]

Interesting. What is it that leads you to think the Base Saiyans are probably stronger than Kaioshin but not Piccolo? Just curious.

It probably has to do with the fact that Piccolo could go toe-to-toe with #17 without using a multiplicative transformation, after reuniting with Kami.

[FNF]

Just my 2 cents from a post on another forum;

Another couple of things are this title page, which clearly shows Kaioshin being in awe of the base Saiyans after Vegeta decimated PuiPui;



...and this statement which seems to suggest that Piccolo>Kaioshin;

Context: Piccolo wants to go rescue Kaioshin from Boo
Kuririn: “…Control yourself…I know how you feel, but you’ve got to control yourself…! Frankly, even you aren’t any match for him…absolutely not…”

Krillin seems to be referring to Piccolo as the stronger of the two going by AT's writing style;

Kaioshin (talking to Gohan): “We definitely can’t win against Majin Boo…! Not even you guys can…! It doesn’t matter who; there doesn’t exist anyone capable of defeating him! If we stay here, there’s no doubt that we’ll be killed!”

Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”

No.16: “Please forgive me for sacrificing you all along with me. I’m going to self-destruct with Cell! [ ] This is my final power hidden inside my body, which I was to never use! Even you people will be blown to pieces just by being close by!”

It's quite a distinct pattern in his writing.


I go along with Piccolo>base Saiyans>Kaioshin because I think it's made pretty obvious imo.

[Fox666]

...and this statement which seems to suggest that Piccolo>Kaioshin;

Context: Piccolo wants to go rescue Kaioshin from Boo
Kuririn: “…Control yourself…I know how you feel, but you’ve got to control yourself…! Frankly, even you aren’t any match for him…absolutely not…”

Krillin seems to be referring to Piccolo as the stronger of the two going by AT's writing style;

I don't really see it. It seems to be about the difference beetween Kuririn and Piccolo, and has nothing to do with Kaioshin. Besides, wasn't Gohan also defeated by Majin Boo at this point? Going by that logic, Piccolo should also be superior to Gohan...

Kaioshin (talking to Gohan): “We definitely can’t win against Majin Boo…! Not even you guys can…! It doesn’t matter who; there doesn’t exist anyone capable of defeating him! If we stay here, there’s no doubt that we’ll be killed!”

Doesn't make much sense, since Kaioshin was astonished for knowing later that Goku and the others are stronger than him.


While that comment from Babidi and Darbra about the three Saiyans having great energy is confusing, if we ignore that (with good reasons) we never had a direct comparison beetween Kaioshin and the Saiyans in their regular forms. He was surprised by Pui-pui defeat, but that only means he underestimated them.

It's interesting to note that Kaioshin only realized they were stronger than him when they transformed in Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

And while Kaioshin says "Super Saiyan", he was specifically speaking of Super Saiyan 2.

[FNF]

I don't really see it. It seems to be about the difference beetween Kuririn and Piccolo, and has nothing to do with Kaioshin. Besides, wasn't Gohan also defeated by Majin Boo at this point? Going by that logic, Piccolo should also be superior to Gohan...

Dude, Kaioshin is getting laid out in the same panel. Why would it not include him?
Lol nope. Krillin and Piccolo were completely unaware that Gohan was beaten by Boo. Piccolo only finds out when Vegeta says so later on.

Doesn't make much sense, since Kaioshin was astonished for knowing later that Goku and the others are stronger than him.

Wrong, we was astonished just how much stronger the SSjins were. It is clear in the narrative that base Saiyans>Kaioshin while the SSjins/SSjin2s are >>> Kaioshin

Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Kaioshin already expected the Saiyans to surpass his own power;

Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

Thrown into panic =/= only just surpassed

While that comment from Babidi and Darbra about the three Saiyans having great energy is confusing, if we ignore that (with good reasons) we never had a direct comparison beetween Kaioshin and the Saiyans in their regular forms. He was surprised by Pui-pui defeat, but that only means he underestimated them.

No, as I already proved he already expected the Saiyans to be stronger than himself. Combine that with Kaioshin being in awe of the base Saiyans and voila!

It's interesting to note that Kaioshin only realized they were stronger than him when they transformed in Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

And while Kaioshin says "Super Saiyan", he was specifically speaking of Super Saiyan 2.

Once again, no. Just, no.