If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Xyex » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:43 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:First of all You dont know Piccolo's personality he could have stopped caring after seeing the Saiyans powers at the Cell Games.
But I do know Piccolo's personality, just like I know Goku's appetite. He didn't stop caring, if he had he wouldn't have been helping out during the Buu saga.
TheMightyOzaru wrote: Ok seriously Vegeta is not that cocky and arrogant. He would have a problem if he knew he couldnt beat 18 in base.
Of course he'd have a problem. My point is that he would not admit that there was a problem. He'd just brush it off with a "so what? I can still win" attitude, which is exactly what he does.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Vegeta is fairly confident he can without going SSJ he has fought 18 before and has a fairly good idea on how powerful she is.
He isn't 'fairly confident' of anything. He just brushes it aside with an "I'll still win" remark which gives zero indication that he's actually stronger than 18 or Piccolo. It's basically a disinterested 'whatever' response.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Kaioshin is also a good deal stronger than Freeza and we all know that Vegeta can kick Kaioshins ass in base.
Base Vegeta isn't anywhere even remotely near Freeza's full power, let alone Kaioshin.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Honestly its not too outlandish to claim that Kaioshin is above 18.
Of course Kaioshin's over 18. And 18 is over Freeza and Freeza is over Vegeta, which is why the whole "Vegeta can kick Kaioshins ass in base" concept fails.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Lol Yes he can Vegeta treats him like a joke and Kaioshin is constantly impressed by Vegeta's lack of power output =/.
Vegeta treats everyone like a joke, and as for Kaioshin he had no clue how strong Goku and the others were. He was assuming 50s and got 700s, so of course he's shocked. Doesn't matter that he's 20,000, and much stronger than them (in their bases, of course). It's more than he expected.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Xyex wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:First of all You dont know Piccolo's personality he could have stopped caring after seeing the Saiyans powers at the Cell Games.
But I do know Piccolo's personality, just like I know Goku's appetite. He didn't stop caring, if he had he wouldn't have been helping out during the Buu saga.


Piccolo's drive was Goku and since he knows he cannot surpass Goku his training might have gone down. I'm not saying Piccolo doesnt train but it would seem that he just trains to maintain his power if he does train. Piccolo didnt fight in the Buu saga what are you talking about? Piccolo participated in the Budokai but he knows damn well he woudnt win he just wanted to have a bit of fun. Quite frankly a lack of training would explain why he is seemingly weaker than the base Saiyans. Dude you make Vegeta out to be incredibly stupid. His pride and arrogance doesnt affect him that much. He is confident that he does not need SSJ. Seriously? You have no proof or basis for believing Base Vegeta is weaker than Frieza. Quite frankly its insulting to Vegeta's character that you believe that base Vegeta or hell even base Gohan at this point is that weak in base. I know its non canon but base Gohan crushed Frieza without so much as trying in Fusion Reborn. Also:
http://www.mangaeden.com/en-manga/dragon-ball/431/6/
I would be inclined to believe Vegeta would have some trouble if Vegeta had a bit of sweat running down his face for nervousness but he doesnt he is smug and confident that he does not need SSJ to win.
Ah but you see here is the thing. Kaioshin feared Yakon you could tell. Goku however seemed like he was certainly capable of handling Yakon in base. That would mean Base Goku > Kaioshin and since Base Vegeta isnt that much weaker that would also mean Vegeta is close to, equal to, or also stronger than Kaioshin and definitely stronger than 18 and Frieza.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:13 pm

I think, if Vegeta's primary purpose for going to the tournament was originally to show up Gohan and then changed to wanting to fight Gokuu, he wasn't going to stick to his promise anyway. You know that, in a serious fight between Gohan or Gokuu, Vegeta, being both the arrogant, uncaring, battle-hungry warrior he is, wouldn't hold back just because some kid who hasn't even properly trained in 7 years told him so because he doesn't want the media flashing cameras at him.

Vegeta could've literally said, "Whatever", and it'd have the same impact, because Vegeta just doesn't care what anyone says, as long as he gets his long-awaited, no-holds-barred rematch with Gokuu. If needs be, they'd take their fight away from the tournament grounds so they could go all-out without Gohan flapping his arms and jabbering on about the "Great Saiyaman".

And it's clear that Kaioushin's more scared of anyone associated with Bobbodi than the actual power of Bobbodi's potentially suppressed minions, because he knows how unpredictable Bobbodi and Boo are, the two of them having already killed his older, stronger and presumably wiser (although, given Kaioushin's decisions, that's probably not a hard feat) comrades. Kaioushin isn't suddenly weaker than fucking Pui-Pui, a grunt who still thinks x10 Earth's gravity is a big deal to our heroes, just because he thinks it's better to be safe than sorry if they gang up and fight him together. And just being shocked at the Saiyans' powers doesn't mean that Kaioushin's suddenly below them. He's shocked at the fact that they, being "mere mortals" in his eyes, broke his expectations and regard Dabra as "nothing special", with only Gokuu and Vegeta being unimpressed at Gohan as an even stronger Super Saiyan fighting evenly with a guy Kaioushin considers a "monster".

Nor has Piccolo, a warrior with just as much motivation as Gokuu and Vegeta, suddenly gotten drastically weaker over 7 years because he apparently "slacked off". No, only Gohan (and maybe Kuririn) was stated to have slacked off his training. It's not in Piccolo's character to just give up like that. He's not an Earthling. Ever since his merge with Kami, he's always been in the Super Saiyans' league, and even started out stronger than them. He caught up with them after training in the RoSaT, stayed on his feet along with SS Vegeta and Trunks against the Cell Juniors, and only fell behind once Gokuu and Vegeta surpassed the already "in-a-league-of-his-own" golden-boy Gohan and reached SS2 like him (and, in Gokuu's case, SS3 too).

It seems like the only reason that people are so vehemently arguing against Kaioushin's power superiority to Piccolo is because they don't like Kaioushin. Well, I'm not the biggest fan of Chaozu, but at least I accept that he eventually surpassed Yajirobe, who clearly just didn't give a shit about getting into scraps with the others once the Saiyans, and furthermore, Freeza rolled round, to the point that he declined the trip to Namek in fear of getting killed, and his role in the series subsequently became the Z-Senshi's Senzu delivery boy for the remainder of the series.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Not really. I would have been inclined to agree that Vegeta in base was weaker than 18 if he had like some sweat running down his face for nervous sake but he doesnt he is calm, smug, and confident he doesnt need SSJ to win. Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Frieza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:21 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Not really. I would have been inclined to agree that Vegeta in base was weaker than 18 if he had like some sweat running down his face for nervous sake but he doesnt he is calm, smug, and confident he doesnt need SSJ to win. Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Freeza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
No, it's because he doesn't care about Gohan's silly rule and is going to do whatever he wants regardless. Why would he be nervous when he knows that he's at least the second strongest person there (even if he does have to use Super Saiyan for it)?

I'm inclined to believe that you don't know Vegeta. He's rarely ever nervous. Certainly not when he's not even in a battle. Even when he's getting beaten and sweat is running down his face, it's arguably more because of anger than anxiety.

So what if he says he can still win without Super Saiyan? Are we meant to take everything Vegeta says as truth? Even the fact that he initially questions why Gohan doesn't want him to use SS should suggest that he has plans of using it in the first place, because he wants to fight Gokuu. And nothing's going to stop him from achieving that goal. That's why he so casually dismisses Gohan's worries about the media ("And we'll punch their heads off") in favour of his typical arrogance. He just doesn't care.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:22 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote: And it's clear that Kaioushin's more scared of anyone associated with Bobbodi than the actual power of Bobbodi's potentially suppressed minions, because he knows how unpredictable Bobbodi and Boo are, the two of them having already killed his older, stronger and presumably wiser (although, given Kaioushin's decisions, that's probably not a hard feat) comrades. Kaioushin isn't suddenly weaker than fucking Pui-Pui, a grunt who still thinks x10 Earth's gravity is a big deal to our heroes, just because he thinks it's better to be safe than sorry if they gang up and fight him together. And just being shocked at the Saiyans' powers doesn't mean that Kaioushin's suddenly below them. He's shocked at the fact that they, being "mere mortals" in his eyes, broke his expectations and regard Dabra as "nothing special", with only Gokuu and Vegeta being unimpressed at Gohan as an even stronger Super Saiyan fighting evenly with a guy Kaioushin considers a "monster".
I'm not saying Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui. kaioshin doesnt know who Pui Pui is but he knows who Yakon is he admits that. He is seemingly afraid and says they should be gang up on him implying that he is no match alone for Yakon yet Base Goku displays greater power and skill than Yakon whom is seemingly stronger than Kaioshin. Base Vegeta definitely seems stronger than 18 and Piccolo since he isnt too far behind Goku.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Not really. I would have been inclined to agree that Vegeta in base was weaker than 18 if he had like some sweat running down his face for nervous sake but he doesnt he is calm, smug, and confident he doesnt need SSJ to win. Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Freeza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
No, it's because he doesn't care about Gohan's silly rule and is going to do whatever he wants regardless. Why would he be nervous when he knows that he's at least the second strongest person there (even if he does have to use Super Saiyan for it)?

I'm inclined to believe that you don't know Vegeta. He's rarely ever nervous. Certainly not when he's not even in a battle. Even when he's getting beaten and sweat is running down his face, it's arguably more because of anger than anxiety.
Where is your proof that Vegeta is gonna disregard the rule? Sir I do not appreciate you questioning my knowledge of Vegeta he is my favorite character. I know him well. He again is confident that he does not need SSJ. He agrees to the rule. Look at Vegeta when Goten and Trunks are fighting. He claims that Goten cheated by going SSJ. Thats even further proof that he would follow the rule. I'm sorry but I dont peg Vegeta as a hypocrite. Vegeta doesnt show nervousness? He does sometimes. He even shows a bit of annoyance that Kakarot had achieved SSJ2. If he was annoyed with the rule he would have thought to himself "Damn it that makes things a little difficult" Seriously why does he hope to gain by saying Ill still win more or less to himself? Really nothing.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:54 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Not really. I would have been inclined to agree that Vegeta in base was weaker than 18 if he had like some sweat running down his face for nervous sake but he doesnt he is calm, smug, and confident he doesnt need SSJ to win. Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Freeza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
No, it's because he doesn't care about Gohan's silly rule and is going to do whatever he wants regardless. Why would he be nervous when he knows that he's at least the second strongest person there (even if he does have to use Super Saiyan for it)?

I'm inclined to believe that you don't know Vegeta. He's rarely ever nervous. Certainly not when he's not even in a battle. Even when he's getting beaten and sweat is running down his face, it's arguably more because of anger than anxiety.
Where is your proof that Vegeta is gonna disregard the rule? Sir I do not appreciate you questioning my knowledge of Vegeta he is my favorite character. I know him well. He again is confident that he does not need SSJ. He agrees to the rule. Look at Vegeta when Goten and Trunks are fighting. He claims that Goten cheated by going SSJ. Thats even further proof that he would follow the rule. I'm sorry but I dont peg Vegeta as a hypocrite. Vegeta doesnt show nervousness? He does sometimes. He even shows a bit of annoyance that Kakarot had achieved SSJ2. If he was annoyed with the rule he would have thought to himself "Damn it that makes things a little difficult" Seriously why does he hope to gain by saying Ill still win more or less to himself? Really nothing.
My proof is Vegeta throwing a hissy fit over not getting to fight Gokuu, and we know that in a fight between him and Gokuu, neither of them would hold back just for the sake of spectators and the media bothering them. Why would guys that can destroy the planet with a flick of a wrist be afraid of something like that (especially with Gokuu returning to the afterlife the next day)? But for what it's worth, I apologize for you questioning your knowledge of Gokuu.

Vegeta's annoyed that Goten "cheated" by going SS, because he doesn't want his son to lose against Gokuu's son. Also, he's not actually the one fighting. It's not as if Vegeta can't be a hypocrite because he initially "agreed" to not using SS at the tournament, when we know that Vegeta's a spoilt brat who tries to get what he wants at all costs, and does so later in the same arc, when he willingly submits to Bobbodi's possession just so he can match Gokuu and eventually fight him, and doesn't even care about appearing as a Super Saiyan back at the tournament (of course, he then proceeds to kill the spectators, but it still shows that he's prepared to do something as bad as murder, an obvious flouting of the rules which would surely draw the media, to get what he wants). As he said himself, the only thing he cares about fighting Gokuu, and the others are of no concern to him.

And remember that Vegeta is a prideful person. Why would he start an argument with Gohan by refusing to stick to the "no SS" rule and potentially admit that he could actually lose against #18 and/or Piccolo in base, when he can just play along so long as he gets to fight Gokuu no matter what? Vegeta's arrogant, but he's not stupid. Nothing, either before or after, suggests that Vegeta has miraculously surpassed #18 and/or Piccolo in just his base form. The Boo arc (and maybe its power-scaling) is ridiculous and so inconsistent that it's practically a self-parody by this point, but it's not that ridiculous and inconsistent when there's nothing to support your sentiment.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Hitiro » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:11 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'm not saying Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui. kaioshin doesnt know who Pui Pui is but he knows who Yakon is he admits that. He is seemingly afraid and says they should be gang up on him implying that he is no match alone for Yakon yet Base Goku displays greater power and skill than Yakon whom is seemingly stronger than Kaioshin. Base Vegeta definitely seems stronger than 18 and Piccolo since he isnt too far behind Goku.
So what if Kaioshin says they should gang up on Yakon? As you said Kaioshin explains that he's heard of Yakon through reputation. But he is clearly going on what his reputation is rather than Yakon's actual fighting strength. Its the same as Mr. Satan's reputation of being the champion, his daughter thinks that he's the strongest person on the planet but as we all know that isn't true. Even Trunks during the Junior division of the tournament overestimated Mr. Satan's strength purely down to his reputation.

Plus, we all know how bad Kaioshin is at actually gauging an individuals strength. He even thought that Vegeta fighting Pui Pui by himself wasn't a wise idea. If he couldn't tell that difference in power between them then none of his words hold much merit. And to say that Base Vegeta is stronger than 18 is a big overestimation of his strength. I have brought this up before but if Goku or Vegeta's base powerlevels were much higher than half of Frieza's 100%(So 60 million.) Then a Genki Dama made with everyones ki on planet Earth wouldn't be able to defeat Kid Buu. The collective ki of an an average human equates to a powerlevel of 5. If the population for the Dragonball Universes Earth is, at least, 6 billion, we're talking about a Genki Dama with an average powerlevel of 30 billion(Give or take considering the kids, and piccolo's ki being put into the Genki Dama. The characters would have been brought back with the same ki they had before they died so Gohan would have been severly weakened due to the Buutenks fight so his ki wouldn't have been enough alone). If Goku's base powerlevel was at 60 million then in SSJ3(Which is a multiplier of 400x) it would put his powerlevel at 24 billion. Apart from Piccolo, 18 and the Kaioshin I don't think anybody in base is above Frieza's powerlevel, until Ultimate Gohan comes along that is.
Last edited by Hitiro on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Fox666 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:47 pm

Hitiro wrote:The collective ki of an an average human equates to a powerlevel of 5. If the population for the Dragonball Universes Earth is, at least, 6 billion, we're talking about a Genki Dama with an average powerlevel of 30 billion(Give or take considering the kids, and piccolo's ki being put into the Genki Dama.
While an grown up man has a battle power of 5, but a small kid is just 1, so following that logic the Genki-dama would probably be around half of that.

And althought an interesting idea, it would be far-fetched to use that as proof of anything.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Xyex » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:12 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Piccolo's drive was Goku and since he knows he cannot surpass Goku his training might have gone down.
Even if the thinks he can't catch Goku he's not one to stop trying.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Piccolo didnt fight in the Buu saga what are you talking about?
I never said he fought, I said he helped. And he was willing to fight, he just never got the chance.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Quite frankly a lack of training would explain why he is seemingly weaker than the base Saiyans.
Except that he's not 'seemingly weaker than the base saiyans.' Nothing, anywhere, in the story suggests this happens, or is even remotely possible.

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Dude you make Vegeta out to be incredibly stupid. His pride and arrogance doesnt affect him that much. He is confident that he does not need SSJ. Seriously?
Yes, seriously. Sounds like someone needs to watch Vegeta's exploits again. His pride and arrogance doesn't affect him that much? Uh, hello? The entire Freeza battle? Letting Cell become Perfect? Arranging for Babidi to Majin-ize him just so he can fight Goku? And Vegeta was also confident, numerous times before in the series, that he could take someone and, oh, guess what, he couldn't.

Besides, 1) This a tournament. With rules. And ringouts. Being weaker than your opponent doesn't stop you from winning. And 2) The only one Vegeta cared about was Goku, no one else mattered. If he'd gotten his fight with Goku frist (which he almost did) he'd have likely blown off the rest of the tournament after that anyway. I doubt he was even thinking about the other competitors, only Goku.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:You have no proof or basis for believing Base Vegeta is weaker than Freeza.
I have every proof. There's not one iota of evidence to the contrary, and a mountain of it to support it.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Quite frankly its insulting to Vegeta's character that you believe that base Vegeta or hell even base Gohan at this point is that weak in base.
Insulting that to believe that they're the most powerful people in the entire universe, even without transforming? The hell? And what's this 'that weak' nonsense? We're talking Freeza. Most powerful being (pre-Super Saiyan) in the universe. Freeza the first measuring stick of the Buu Saga.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I know its non canon but base Gohan crushed Freeza without so much as trying in Fusion Reborn.
Ultimate Gohan, not base. Major difference.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I would be inclined to believe Vegeta would have some trouble if Vegeta had a bit of sweat running down his face for nervousness but he doesnt he is smug and confident that he does not need SSJ to win.
Again, Vegeta. Again, refer to previous comments.

And it's not like he'd actually, you know, care to stick to any such argreement anyway. He doesn't give a rats ass if people recognize them or not.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Ah but you see here is the thing. Kaioshin feared Yakon you could tell.
Kaioshin feared anything that had an M on it. He's absolutely worhtless for measuring the powers of.... well, anyone.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku however seemed like he was certainly capable of handling Yakon in base. That would mean Base Goku > Kaioshin and since Base Vegeta isnt that much weaker that would also mean Vegeta is close to, equal to, or also stronger than Kaioshin and definitely stronger than 18 and Freeza.
It doesn't even remotely mean that base Goku's stronger than Kaioshin. In fact, Kaioshin doesn't even imply being surpassed until after the SSJs start running around. And as said, Kaioshin is a very poor means of measuring power. Also, if Vegeta weren't that much weaker than Goku there wouldn't have been any need for him to go Majin. Vegeta's significantly weaker.

Sorry, but none of your proof is actually proof. It's all wishful thinking.
TheMightyOzaru wrote: Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Freeza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
Well, duh, of course he did. That was his cop out for not having to do them anymore. And, you know, SSJ is kind of a massive increase, so it does semi-apply. But there's no reason to assume (and no logic, even Z-logic, to aid in such assumption) that the Saiyans ever matched 100% Freeza. In fact, assuming that they ever did so invalidates the need to even have SSJ or higher. If they can do that in base, what's the point of the rest?
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'm not saying Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui. kaioshin doesnt know who Pui Pui is but he knows who Yakon is he admits that. He is seemingly afraid and says they should be gang up on him implying that he is no match alone for Yakon yet Base Goku displays greater power and skill than Yakon whom is seemingly stronger than Kaioshin.
Yakon's not 'seemingly stronger than Kaioshin.' Kaioshin never says "Yakon's almost as powerful as I am" or "Yakon's as strong as me" or "Yakon's power far exceeds my own" or, well, anything about his power. He just says that he's dangerous and they should work together. He's afraid of what being a Majin has done to Yakon's power, afraid of Yakon's abilities, and afraid of giving power to Buu. It wouldn't matter if that had been Mr. Satan instead of Yakon, Kaioshin would still have wanted a group effort for the sake of saving energy.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Hitiro » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:16 pm

Fox666 wrote:While an grown up man has a battle power of 5, but a small kid is just 1, so following that logic the Genki-dama would probably be around half of that.

And althought an interesting idea, it would be far-fetched to use that as proof of anything.
I'm saying an average of 30 billion because 5 is what the average is across the planet and we don't really know how many individuals exceed the average of 5 by quite a margin. Let us not forget that there are individuals like Master Roshi across the planet who are in the 100's and are all skilled martial artists. Also we can't forget the human Z fighters have massive powerlevels compared to anyone on earth. And also including Piccolo who has a billion or two by himself. Gohan was also weakened before he died and was then revived with probably around the same powerlevel. I think his powerlevel was knocked down by quite a bit but its probably still a couple of billion. We also have the kids who are in the millions. So I think 30 billion is a good estimation.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Fox666 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:23 pm

For the matter, Kaioshin wasn't mistaken in being worried with Yakon. Wasn't for Super Saiyan 2, the Saiyans would have a hard time against Yakon, since they would be blind and forced to fight without seeing anything and unable to transform.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Hitiro » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:32 pm

Fox666 wrote:For the matter, Kaioshin wasn't mistaken in being worried with Yakon. Wasn't for Super Saiyan 2, the Saiyans would have a hard time against Yakon, since they would be blind and forced to fight without seeing anything and unable to transform.
I agree, but the worry was misplaced in the first place as Kaioshin seemed to be worried about Yakon's battle strength as opposed to his ability to absorb the ki energy emitting from a SSJ's body. As I brought up in my earlier post he is just worried due to Yakon's reputation. Much like Trunks overestimates Mr. Satan's battle strength because he's supposed to be "the strongest human on Earth."

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:29 pm

Umm bro Vegeta's hatred toward Goku is stronger than his arrogance. His arrogance is not as present as you would want to believe. Vegeta's pride is present in the Frieza saga? Ha nice try. The dude was scared shitless multiple times and even attempted to run away from the battle. His Saiyan pride was gone until he went SSJ. Vegeta had absolutely no reason to claim he would win... to himself. If you notice he isnt directing his statement toward anyone he was kinda of murmuring to himself. Umm hello saying there is proof throughout the manga that base Vegeta is weaker than Frieza is A not proving anything and B not even present. I've read the manga and absolutely nothing suggest that Base Vegeta is weaker than Frieza. Kaioshin knows who Yakon is and pretty much knows what he is capable of. He is afraid to fight him alone because he doesnt know full well what he is capable of yes but he does know who he is reguardless and is still afraid to fight him. Kaioshin has an idea of how strong he is. Plus Kaioshin is far stronger than Frieza and says he is pathetic compared to him. I would also like to point out that if Frieza doesnt impress Kaioshin in the slightest and knows the Saiyans are stronger than Frieza, because you know they kind beat him, why the hell is he impressed by their base power? Even if Kaioshin is just impressed by how strong they are not by the fact that they are stronger than him in base it would still point to even Gohan being superior to Frieza in base. I love how you claim to know what no else does. You have no idea if Piccolo would stop training. I personally think he trained to maintain his current battle power but he wasnt training excessively in the 7 year period IMO.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:32 pm

:lol: Gohan was not mystic in Fusion Reborn. Look at his face and hair there is absolutely nothing that suggest he was mystic at all.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:50 pm

Xyex wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I know its non canon but base Gohan crushed Freeza without so much as trying in Fusion Reborn.
Ultimate Gohan, not base. Major difference.
Gohan was normal, definitely not Ultimate. Both his bang & eyes where normal. Besides, when Movie 12 was released, Ultimate Gohan wasn't even seen in the anime. The anime was in the beginning of the Boo vs Gotenks fight.

And if you have seen the JSAT Special, Goten & Trunks are shown to be stronger than Freeza in base.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:51 pm

Oh BTW Xyex here:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Hmm Dabura disregards Kaioshin and states that 3 of them have marvelous energy. Those 3 being Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. He completely disregards Piccolo whom is far above Frieza. Also dont state Piccolo was one of the 3 here is why. Piccolo is turned to stone by Dabura preventing Piccolo's energy from being used which completely goes against what Babidid wants. Base Saiyans > Piccolo. This also means Base Saiyans >>> Frieza. Sorry but you lose :mrgreen: .
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Hitiro » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:48 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Oh BTW Xyex here:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Hmm Dabura disregards Kaioshin and states that 3 of them have marvelous energy. Those 3 being Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. He completely disregards Piccolo whom is far above Freeza. Also dont state Piccolo was one of the 3 here is why. Piccolo is turned to stone by Dabura preventing Piccolo's energy from being used which completely goes against what Babidid wants. Base Saiyans > Piccolo. This also means Base Saiyans >>> Freeza. Sorry but you lose :mrgreen: .
This just means that Akira made a mistake when he made this part. Its the same as the whole "Gohan is dead, even though we wished everyone good back since the morning of the martial arts tournament." scenario. Everyone believes he is dead but that would be impossible seeing as the wish had just taken place after Goku was told by Piccolo that Gohan was dead. So why would they think he was dead?

As I have said if any of the Saiyan's even equal to that of Frieza's 100% powerlevel then a Genki Dama with all the ki on earth wouldn't be enough to defeat Kid Buu because:

If Goku = 120,000,000 then

SSJ3 Goku = (120,000,000*400) = 48,000,000,000

Genki Dama = ((Average of 5) * 6,000,000,000) = 30,000,000,000

Meaning that the Genki Dama is weaker than Goku by 18 billion.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:54 pm

Hitiro wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Oh BTW Xyex here:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Hmm Dabura disregards Kaioshin and states that 3 of them have marvelous energy. Those 3 being Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. He completely disregards Piccolo whom is far above Freeza. Also dont state Piccolo was one of the 3 here is why. Piccolo is turned to stone by Dabura preventing Piccolo's energy from being used which completely goes against what Babidid wants. Base Saiyans > Piccolo. This also means Base Saiyans >>> Freeza. Sorry but you lose :mrgreen: .
This just means that Akira made a mistake when he made this part. Its the same as the whole "Gohan is dead, even though we wished everyone good back since the morning of the martial arts tournament." scenario. Everyone believes he is dead but that would be impossible seeing as the wish had just taken place after Goku was told by Piccolo that Gohan was dead. So why would they think he was dead?

As I have said if any of the Saiyan's even equal to that of Freeza's 100% powerlevel then a Genki Dama with all the ki on earth wouldn't be enough to defeat Kid Buu because:

If Goku = 120,000,000 then

SSJ3 Goku = (120,000,000*400) = 48,000,000,000

Genki Dama = ((Average of 5) * 6,000,000,000) = 30,000,000,000

Meaning that the Genki Dama is weaker than Goku by 18 billion.
Umm bro the Z fighters fueled the thing as well same goes for Kibito Kaioshin, Other world people, and Namekians. The thing is by far above SSJ3 Goku. BTW Goku and Vegeta are above Piccolo according to what I had showed above. I have made my own power levels list even and my comment above matches what I have. Plus Power levels according to Toriyama are nigh impossible to track not to mention you are trying to argue Logic with the Genki Dama in the already inconsistent Buu saga.
I myself have SSJ3 Goku at 2,000,000,000,000 but thats just my opinion.
Last edited by TheMightyOzaru on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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