TheMightyOzaru wrote:Piccolo's drive was Goku and since he knows he cannot surpass Goku his training might have gone down.
Even if the thinks he can't catch Goku he's not one to stop trying.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Piccolo didnt fight in the Buu saga what are you talking about?
I never said he fought, I said he helped. And he was willing to fight, he just never got the chance.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Quite frankly a lack of training would explain why he is seemingly weaker than the base Saiyans.
Except that he's not
'seemingly weaker than the base saiyans.' Nothing, anywhere, in the story suggests this happens, or is even remotely possible.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Dude you make Vegeta out to be incredibly stupid. His pride and arrogance doesnt affect him that much. He is confident that he does not need SSJ. Seriously?
Yes, seriously. Sounds like someone needs to watch Vegeta's exploits again. His pride and arrogance doesn't affect him that much? Uh, hello? The entire
Freeza battle? Letting Cell become Perfect? Arranging for Babidi to Majin-ize him just so he can fight Goku? And Vegeta was also confident, numerous times before in the series, that he could take someone and, oh, guess what, he couldn't.
Besides, 1) This a tournament. With rules. And ringouts. Being weaker than your opponent doesn't stop you from winning. And 2) The only one Vegeta cared about was Goku, no one else mattered. If he'd gotten his fight with Goku frist (which he almost did) he'd have likely blown off the rest of the tournament after that anyway. I doubt he was even thinking about the other competitors, only Goku.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:You have no proof or basis for believing Base Vegeta is weaker than Freeza.
I have every proof. There's not one iota of evidence to the contrary, and a mountain of it to support it.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Quite frankly its insulting to Vegeta's character that you believe that base Vegeta or hell even base Gohan at this point is that weak in base.
Insulting that to believe that they're the most powerful people in the entire universe, even without transforming? The hell? And what's this 'that weak' nonsense? We're talking Freeza
. Most powerful being (pre-Super Saiyan) in the universe. Freeza
the first measuring stick of the Buu Saga.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I know its non canon but base Gohan crushed Freeza without so much as trying in Fusion Reborn.
Ultimate Gohan, not base. Major difference.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I would be inclined to believe Vegeta would have some trouble if Vegeta had a bit of sweat running down his face for nervousness but he doesnt he is smug and confident that he does not need SSJ to win.
Again, Vegeta. Again, refer to previous comments.
And it's not like he'd actually, you know, care to stick to any such argreement anyway. He doesn't give a rats ass if people recognize them or not.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Ah but you see here is the thing. Kaioshin feared Yakon you could tell.
Kaioshin feared anything that had an M on it. He's absolutely worhtless for measuring the powers of.... well, anyone.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku however seemed like he was certainly capable of handling Yakon in base. That would mean Base Goku > Kaioshin and since Base Vegeta isnt that much weaker that would also mean Vegeta is close to, equal to, or also stronger than Kaioshin and definitely stronger than 18 and Freeza.
It doesn't even remotely mean that base Goku's stronger than Kaioshin. In fact, Kaioshin doesn't even imply being surpassed until after the SSJs start running around. And as said, Kaioshin is a very poor means of measuring power. Also, if Vegeta weren't that much weaker than Goku there wouldn't have been any need for him to go Majin. Vegeta's significantly weaker.
Sorry, but none of your proof is actually proof. It's all wishful thinking.
TheMightyOzaru wrote: Toriyama did say that power levels were pretty much incalculable past the Freeza saga so who knows how powerful the base Saiyans got.
Well, duh, of course he did. That was his cop out for not having to do them anymore. And, you know, SSJ is kind of a massive increase, so it does semi-apply. But there's no reason to assume (and no logic, even Z-logic, to aid in such assumption) that the Saiyans ever matched 100% Freeza. In fact, assuming that they ever did so invalidates the need to even have
SSJ or higher. If they can do that in base, what's the point of the rest?
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'm not saying Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui. kaioshin doesnt know who Pui Pui is but he knows who Yakon is he admits that. He is seemingly afraid and says they should be gang up on him implying that he is no match alone for Yakon yet Base Goku displays greater power and skill than Yakon whom is seemingly stronger than Kaioshin.
Yakon's not 'seemingly stronger than Kaioshin.' Kaioshin never says "Yakon's almost as powerful as I am" or "Yakon's as strong as me" or "Yakon's power far exceeds my own" or, well, anything about his power. He just says that he's dangerous and they should work together. He's afraid of what being a Majin has done to Yakon's power, afraid of Yakon's abilities, and afraid of giving power to Buu. It wouldn't matter if that had been Mr. Satan instead of Yakon, Kaioshin would still have wanted a group effort for the sake of saving energy.