If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:51 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Sorry but you lose :mrgreen: .
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Are you high?
Let's not have this sort of thing, please. It's seriously childish.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Titan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:30 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Umm bro Vegeta's hatred toward Goku is stronger than his arrogance. His arrogance is not as present as you would want to believe. Vegeta's pride is present in the Freeza saga? Ha nice try. The dude was scared shitless multiple times and even attempted to run away from the battle. His Saiyan pride was gone until he went SSJ. Vegeta had absolutely no reason to claim he would win... to himself. If you notice he isnt directing his statement toward anyone he was kinda of murmuring to himself. Umm hello saying there is proof throughout the manga that base Vegeta is weaker than Freeza is A not proving anything and B not even present. I've read the manga and absolutely nothing suggest that Base Vegeta is weaker than Freeza. Kaioshin knows who Yakon is and pretty much knows what he is capable of. He is afraid to fight him alone because he doesnt know full well what he is capable of yes but he does know who he is regardless and is still afraid to fight him. Kaioshin has an idea of how strong he is. Plus Kaioshin is far stronger than Freeza and says he is pathetic compared to him. I would also like to point out that if Freeza doesnt impress Kaioshin in the slightest and knows the Saiyans are stronger than Freeza, because you know they kind beat him, why the hell is he impressed by their base power? Even if Kaioshin is just impressed by how strong they are not by the fact that they are stronger than him in base it would still point to even Gohan being superior to Freeza in base. I love how you claim to know what no else does. You have no idea if Piccolo would stop training. I personally think he trained to maintain his current battle power but he wasnt training excessively in the 7 year period IMO.
You have a point.

Fox666 wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Android 17 and 18 have the ki of normal humans.
It was mentioned a few times that Goku and the others can't sense any Ki coming from No.17 and 18. So it appears that they don't have any form of "Ki" like a normal person.

Of course No.17 is seen donating energy to the Genki-Dama, but he also said he remembered Goku's voice which he never heard in the entire manga! And on reality it was Lunch in that panel, but it was changed to No.17 later.
Just, because, the others can't sense any Ki coming from No.17 and 18, it doesn't mean that they don't have artificial ki
who can be lent to the Genki-Dama.

Maybe A-17 has listened Goku's voice when he was inside Cell.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:10 pm

Titan wrote:Just, because, the others can't sense any Ki coming from No.17 and 18, it doesn't mean that they don't have artificial ki
who can be lent to the Genki-Dama.

Maybe A-17 has listened Goku's voice when he was inside Cell.
The problem is, unless Dr. Gero was a super genius I doubt he could create artificial ki so close to the original biological version that it could be lent to the Genki Dama. But lets say he could. Why would they need all the earthlings to contribute their energy? They could just use 18's ki by itself, the androids ki supply is endless due to the generator in their bodies so they never run out of ki or get fatigued. They could just get 18 to keep pouring her ki into the Genki Dama and fill it up that way. I choose to believe that both 17 and 18 have kept their biological ki (which should be the only kind the Genki Dama takes) intact but its at the level of an ordinary human.

As for 17's "he probably heard Goku's voice when he was inside Cell." theory. I'm not too sure, we don't have much to go on. Perhaps it is possible but I would rather think that Dr. Gero played video's of Goku's fights and pointed out his weaknesses and strengths to 17 and 18 in some way. They seemed to know about the Senzu's after they beat up Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta and Tien.

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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Xyex » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:44 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Xyex wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I know its non canon but base Gohan crushed Freeza without so much as trying in Fusion Reborn.
Ultimate Gohan, not base. Major difference.
Gohan was normal, definitely not Ultimate. Both his bang & eyes where normal. Besides, when Movie 12 was released, Ultimate Gohan wasn't even seen in the anime. The anime was in the beginning of the Boo vs Gotenks fight.
Been a long time since I've seen movie 12, but I could have sworn I saw him do a quick 'power-up' type thing before taking out Freeza, a sort of psudeo-transformation. Maybe that was movie 13 I'm thinking of.... Either way, what's been seen in the manga matters more than what's been seen in the anime. Movie 4 introduced Super Saiyan (kinda, sorta, supposedly anyway XD) before it appeared in the anime.

Either way, it wouldn't really matter, I suppose. Non-cannon is non-cannon either way.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And if you have seen the JSAT Special, Goten & Trunks are shown to be stronger than Freeza in base.
Well yeah, the boys are stronger than 1st Form Freeza. 2nd Form, also, which is the absolute strongest version of Freeza that Table had any hope of refering to. I was actually kind of hoping somone would bring up the JSAT since it's the biggest evidence against base Saiyans being over Freeza's power. Table has no way of knowing, what-so-ever, about anything more than 2nd Form Freeza (the only form anyone other than Cold knew of prior to Namek). And, beyond that, no way of measuring Freeza's power post 1st form.

This means that the highest power Table knows of for Freeza, for absolute certain, is 530,000. Even taking into account the possibility that he heard about Freeza's other 2 forms, or about him suppressing his power (both beyond unlikely) he'd not have Freeza's maximum anywhere near it's actual. More than likely he'd be placing him somewhere in 3 to 5 million range, putting Avo and Kado in the 6 to 9 million range, which fits in pretty well with the boys in the JSAT special.

And then, even ignoring all of that, IIRC nothing is ever said by Table to indicate that he meant Avo and Kado as individuals, and not post-fusion.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:29 pm

Herms wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Are you high?
Knock it off, that's no way to talk to people. Let's try to keep this a reasonable discussion.

Also, paragraph breaks are everyone's friend.
Hitiro wrote:On to "otherworld" as you call it, it was only the individuals in the check-in station. Read the manga and gives you a clear distinction, the check-in station is referred to as Underworld. In the Saiyan saga Enma Daiō clearly states that the place where Goku would later train with Kaio after Kaio's planet is destroyed is called Upperworld. When the the Genki Dama has been launched at Kid Buu Enma Daiō clearly states "We in the Underworld have sent you our ki!"
This terminology is a bit of a Viz peculiarity. The "underworld" is what Viz calls the afterlife (the ano-yo, "other world"/"next world"/"world beyond"/etc), while "upper world" is what they call heaven (tengoku). Under Toriyama's diagram of the afterlife, heaven is a big planet floating in the upper part of the afterlife, above Enma's palace. So it's part of the afterlife, though still a different part of it than where Enma's holed up.
Very well. I just figured certain things were more or less obvious which is why I resort to such statements but you are right it was uncalled for and I apologize.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:30 pm

Fox666 wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Android 17 and 18 have the ki of normal humans.
It was mentioned a few times that Goku and the others can't sense any Ki coming from No.17 and 18. So it appears that they don't have any form of "Ki" like a normal person.

Of course No.17 is seen donating energy to the Genki-Dama, but he also said he remembered Goku's voice which he never heard in the entire manga! And on reality it was Lunch in that panel, but it was changed to No.17 later.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:If you're talking about Kibito Kaioshin then you have to factor both their strengths into account and its impossible that them combining together would put them at over 100x stronger than Kibito.
Hundreds of millions. Not that I believe it is actually true, anyway.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Oh BTW Xyex here:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Hmm Dabura disregards Kaioshin and states that 3 of them have marvelous energy. Those 3 being Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. He completely disregards Piccolo whom is far above Freeza. Also dont state Piccolo was one of the 3 here is why. Piccolo is turned to stone by Dabura preventing Piccolo's energy from being used which completely goes against what Babidid wants. Base Saiyans > Piccolo. This also means Base Saiyans >>> Freeza. Sorry but you lose :mrgreen: .
Of course Babidi also said they could revive Majin Boo with the energy of those 3. Since Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 filled less than half of Boo's energy, we can also assume that the base Saiyans are probably stronger than him too.
Dabura is the one claiming the 3 had a substantial amount of energy. Note that he disreguards Piccolo.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:39 pm

And since they were all suppressed, it's very likely he was going off of their potential. Unless Pui-Pui is stronger than Piccolo (which he would be, if we take this to mean the Base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo), that part makes no sense and probably shouldn't be taken literally.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Hitiro wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Dude they have artificial Ki they can still use that to fuel the Genki Dama. The Genki Dama doesnt take some kind of life energy =/. Dude the Potara is closer to multiplication Kibito Kaioshin is more than likely over 100x stronger than Kaioshin. Vegeta is equal to SSJ2 Goku and again is not scared shitless by Buu like Kaioshin is. Seriously it actually kind of baffles me that you think Kibito Kaioshin would actually stick around and try to fight Buu. Where is your logic here? No it is highly likely that Gohan still had a ton of energy higher than that of SSJ3 Goku's. Just because you dont believe in the idea that the characters in Z get exponentially stronger over the years doesnt mean they dont. Trust me I have spent years studying power levels and there possible growth rate. The statement Dabura made does not conflict with the continuity of the series and as such should not be considered a "mistake". I have made a power level list myself that does not contradict Dabura's statement or the continuity of the series so it in fact does work. The thing is I'm one of those people who think Kid Buu is superior to Super Buu based on large amount of evidence presented in the manga that Kaioshin influence is all around negative to Buu. Even if its not the case. It wouldnt take a ton of Gohans power to put the Genki Dama over SSJ3 Goku since Gohan is much stronger than Goku. Goku asked for as much as he could and even after being revived his Ki level should not be ridiculously low. Its a bit illogical to suggest such a thing. Honestly I think Kibito Kaioshin is over half as strong as SSJ2 Goku but not too close to SSJ2 Goku. BTW yes I just read where Kibito is stated to give Gohan a bit of a fight. I must have just missed it.
No matter how close to ki it may be artificial is still artificial so its more likely that, that section of their ki is incompatible with the Genki Dama.

Where is your evidence for the Potara fusion being a multiplication in regards to Kibito Kaioshin? As far as we know it only applies to Vegito because the fusion is most powerful when two rivals fuse. This was mentioned by Rou Kaioshin. For the fusion between Kibito and Kaioshin however, that may not be the case because they aren't rivals. And one of them is a god which is why his personality comes out most so the rules could be completely different. Also, Kibito Kaioshin was going to fight Super Buu but Rou Kaioshin stops him saying he has grown much stronger but he wasn't much to begin with and that he'd just be "fodder".

SSJ2 Vegeta is weaker than SSJ2 Goku. We know this because earlier that day he sensed the gap between their powerlevels when Goku was fighting Yakon. That is why he let Babidi put the Majin spell on him. To fill the gap between their difference in power.

If Gohan still has all this ki then only Gohan's ki would be needed seeing as SSJ3 Goku is practically on par with Kid Buu. I think your missing the fact that SSJ Gotenks is around SSJ3 Goku's powerlevel with SSJ3 Goku being > Fat Buu. So for SSJ3 Gotenks to be fighting Super Buu on par with SSJ3 Super Buu would mean he's at least four times as strong as Fat Buu. Meaning Kid Buu must be between Super Buu and Fat Buu for Goku to be able to fight on par with him.

Goku has stated clearly that neither him nor Vegeta are a match for Super Buu unless they fuse. Even after they had pulled the boys and Piccolo out. And as I said, Gohan was one of the first people to supply the Genki Dama with ki. Which Goku clearly said is not nearly enough to defeat Kid Buu. Gohan gave all his ki to the Genki Dama and if you think his ki wasn't that low then the Genki Dama should be much closer to being complete than Goku indicated.
Really? What basis do you have for direguarding 17 and 18 because they have different ki? Its just artificial Ki. If they had different Ki that still wouldnt put them at human level and heck if you taking into account the fact that they are androids they should have no Ki according to your theory. In one of the guide books it states Fusion with the potara is closer to multiplication. Heck I dont even believe Gogeta is standard addition here is why. If Gogeta was just Goku + Vegeta(note that the people must have equal power) that would mean Vegeta x 2 x 50 would be Super Gogeta's power level. Umm Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Goku by a great deal and according to the idea of simple addition Super Gogeta is equal to SSJ2 Vegeta =/. That doesnt work at all. Moving on. Kibito just had a traditional wow I'm much stronger mentality and just got excited. Furthermore Rou Kaioshin tells him that he is still pathetic compared to Buu. Plus you are also forgeting that A Kid Buu is still stronge than Kibito Kaioshin by a good deal. B Kid Buu was the original Buu that scared him. C Kibito referes to him as evil incarnate and says he is more dangerous. Kibito Kaioshin is NOT sticking around for that =/. Vegeta might have kept that Majin power up we dont know. Even still that doesnt really pertain to this conversation at all. Ah that is where you are wrong sir. We do not know Kid Buu's power. He was stated to have been toying with Goku the whole time we dont know the extent of his power. Furthermore I again believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu based on the evidence that all Kaioshin influence weakens Buu in the manga. No he does not have to be between Fat Buu and Super Buu at all. Its like the very concept of holding back has completely flown over everyones head. There is countless amounts of evidence where the bad guy could have killed his opponent with great ease yet chose to play around. Raditz vs Piccolo and Goku is a great example. Sorry but the notion that the Genki Dama made of Gohan's ki alone should have killed him doesnt hold water. Its hinted at that when revived you dont come back at FULL power. That being said he could be anywhere between the amount required to push it over the edge to beat Kid Buu to almost his full Super Buu curb stomping power. Just because Gohan wasnt revived at at full power, which isnt even offically stated, does not mean he doesnt have the power to make the Genki Dama stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Gohan gave as much as he could which again means it is more than likely the amount necessary was given reguardless of whether you believe Kid Buu or Super Buu is superior. We do not know where Gohan was at when fueling the bomb what we can say his Ki is what helped make it stronger than SSJ3 Goku because it is very possible.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:And since they were all suppressed, it's very likely he was going off of their potential. Unless Pui-Pui is stronger than Piccolo (which he would be, if we take this to mean the Base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo), that part makes no sense and probably shouldn't be taken literally.
Puipui is not stronger than Piccolo. Kaioshin just didnt know who he was so he couldnt get an accurate reading of how powerful he was.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:55 pm

You do not need to make multiple posts to respond to multiple people -- just lump them all together in the same post to be more comprehensive.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:56 pm

For the whole wish argument I would like to say that it may or may not be a mistake. We can only guess that. Personally I find it odd that they would forget about Gohan since he can be wished back. You would think Goku would have Gohan in his mind since he is his son after all and realize the wish Bulma made should have brought him back and pick up on his energy signature. Though on the other hand didn't they not know where Yamcha was when he as wished back or was that filler.

For the whole Genki-Dama argument you are forgetting that Toriyama said there are different types of ki. There was Ki, Genki, shouki(I think), and something else. Genki is different then Ki. I personally think Genki is the energy from someones personal life force. Since everyone should have the same life span(excluding others), they should have relatively the same Genki. I may need someone to elaborate on my explanation here.

I douhgt Kid Boo was toying with Goku at all. Why bother when he wasn't toying with anyone else except Mr. Satan. He didn't toy with Vegeta much, He beat him to a pulp. The only toying he did for Vegeta was make him suffer.Same with Fat Boo. Kid Boo even used his candy beam against Goku and that attack is not used when Boo is toying with someone. He couldn't make Goku suffer because they were equal.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:05 pm

Dabra and Bobbidi thought the Saiyans would be easy pickings for Pui-Pui, which is why they thought Boo would reach full-power in Stage 1 alone. If we're going to take Dabra's word on the Saiyans in comparison to Piccolo, then his confidence in Pui-Pui has to come from somewhere, right? This leaves room for Dabra likely not having a real understanding of the Saiyans powers and basically sensing something that is more than just "power" alone. If not, then Pui-Pui being stronger than Piccolo is very possible if you subscribe to the other notion....and actually take what Dabra says literally.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:12 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:For the whole wish argument I would like to say that it may or may not be a mistake. We can only guess that. Personally I find it odd that they would forget about Gohan since he can be wished back. You would think Goku would have Gohan in his mind since he is his son after all and realize the wish Bulma made should have brought him back and pick up on his energy signature. Though on the other hand didn't they not know where Yamcha was when he as wished back or was that filler.

For the whole Genki-Dama argument you are forgetting that Toriyama said there are different types of ki. There was Ki, Genki, shouki(I think), and something else. Genki is different then Ki. I personally think Genki is the energy from someones personal life force. Since everyone should have the same life span(excluding others), they should have relatively the same Genki. I may need someone to elaborate on my explanation here.

I douhgt Kid Boo was toying with Goku at all. Why bother when he wasn't toying with anyone else except Mr. Satan. He didn't toy with Vegeta much, He beat him to a pulp. The only toying he did for Vegeta was make him suffer.Same with Fat Boo. Kid Boo even used his candy beam against Goku and that attack is not used when Boo is toying with someone. He couldn't make Goku suffer because they were equal.
Need I remind you that the Genki Dama formed from Earths energy used to defeat Vegeta was the size of a basket ball yet the Genki Dama formed only from the Z-Fighters Ki was massive from the get go. I dont think the idea that everyone has the same amount of Genki holds a lot of water. Especially when you consider the idea the Genki is probably just the majority of useable Ki for techniques. This would explain why Kibito Kaioshin is seen unable to preform IT a Ki based attack. I dont think the idea of Genki being some kind of "life force" holds a lot of water either. If it were some kind of life force Android 17 and 18 shouldnt be able to fuel the bomb. Also what reason was there for Cell to hold back when fighting Goku, what reason was there for Raditz to hold back, or Frieza? No real reason other to have some fun. Which need I remind you Kid Buu is a destructive child-like being. Its in his nature to toy with his opponents. Vegeta was effortlessly beaten this doesnt really help your point. The whole chocolate beam argument can be explained with impulse. Goku irritated him a little and he responded without thinking which makes sense for a child-like character such as Buu.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:15 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Dabra and Bobbidi thought the Saiyans would be easy pickings for Pui-Pui, which is why they thought Boo would reach full-power in Stage 1 alone. If we're going to take Dabra's word on the Saiyans in comparison to Piccolo, then his confidence in Pui-Pui has to come from somewhere, right? This leaves room for Dabra likely not having a real understanding of the Saiyans powers and basically sensing something that is more than just "power" alone. If not, then Pui-Pui being stronger than Piccolo is very possible if you subscribe to the other notion....and actually take what Dabra says literally.
I guess but that still doesnt explain the Gravity thing. Even base Trunks can barely handle 100Gs and he isnt even close to Piccolo. Maybe they are just overestimating Puipui for some reason. Either that or Gravity has to be something you are used to i guess which would cause a speed decrease.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:22 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:For the whole wish argument I would like to say that it may or may not be a mistake. We can only guess that. Personally I find it odd that they would forget about Gohan since he can be wished back. You would think Goku would have Gohan in his mind since he is his son after all and realize the wish Bulma made should have brought him back and pick up on his energy signature. Though on the other hand didn't they not know where Yamcha was when he as wished back or was that filler.

For the whole Genki-Dama argument you are forgetting that Toriyama said there are different types of ki. There was Ki, Genki, shouki(I think), and something else. Genki is different then Ki. I personally think Genki is the energy from someones personal life force. Since everyone should have the same life span(excluding others), they should have relatively the same Genki. I may need someone to elaborate on my explanation here.

I douhgt Kid Boo was toying with Goku at all. Why bother when he wasn't toying with anyone else except Mr. Satan. He didn't toy with Vegeta much, He beat him to a pulp. The only toying he did for Vegeta was make him suffer.Same with Fat Boo. Kid Boo even used his candy beam against Goku and that attack is not used when Boo is toying with someone. He couldn't make Goku suffer because they were equal.
Need I remind you that the Genki Dama formed from Earths energy used to defeat Vegeta was the size of a basket ball yet the Genki Dama formed only from the Z-Fighters Ki was massive from the get go. I dont think the idea that everyone has the same amount of Genki holds a lot of water. Especially when you consider the idea the Genki is probably just the majority of useable Ki for techniques. This would explain why Kibito Kaioshin is seen unable to preform IT a Ki based attack. I dont think the idea of Genki being some kind of "life force" holds a lot of water either. If it were some kind of life force Android 17 and 18 shouldnt be able to fuel the bomb. Also what reason was there for Cell to hold back when fighting Goku, what reason was there for Raditz to hold back, or Freeza? No real reason other to have some fun. Which need I remind you Kid Buu is a destructive child-like being. Its in his nature to toy with his opponents. Vegeta was effortlessly beaten this doesnt really help your point. The whole chocolate beam argument can be explained with impulse. Goku irritated him a little and he responded without thinking which makes sense for a child-like character such as Buu.
That was the minimum energy, and was taken from plants, some animals, and the sun. never did I see one person help out. Vegeta even mentions taking the maximum for earth. Genki is a different source then Ki. If it worked your way then everyone would have powered up to maximum and then send their ki, or they would have just gone to get senzu beans for Gohan and the boys and send their full power. Genki obviously works a lot differently then ki. Like someone else mentioned the andriods have unlimited ki, so they could just send there unlimited power. Like Toriyama said Genki and Ki are different.

They held back for the fun of it. Same with Boo. If Kid Boo was stronger then Goku the fight would have been one sided. It wasn't. Goku had one weakness with his stamina and energy. If Kid Boo was holding back against Goku then Goku wouldn't have done nearly as well as he did. He was blow for blow. Kid Boo toying with Goku would look similar to what happened to Vegeta if he was holding back. Kid Boo toying with Fat Boo and Vegeta was way different then the fight he had with Goku. Kid Boo only cares about pain and destruction, he would not just fight equal with Goku for no reason, it's not his nature. Someone like Cell or Freeza like to see the hopelessness of their opponents, while Kid Boo only cares about harming people.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:28 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:For the whole wish argument I would like to say that it may or may not be a mistake. We can only guess that. Personally I find it odd that they would forget about Gohan since he can be wished back. You would think Goku would have Gohan in his mind since he is his son after all and realize the wish Bulma made should have brought him back and pick up on his energy signature. Though on the other hand didn't they not know where Yamcha was when he as wished back or was that filler.

For the whole Genki-Dama argument you are forgetting that Toriyama said there are different types of ki. There was Ki, Genki, shouki(I think), and something else. Genki is different then Ki. I personally think Genki is the energy from someones personal life force. Since everyone should have the same life span(excluding others), they should have relatively the same Genki. I may need someone to elaborate on my explanation here.

I douhgt Kid Boo was toying with Goku at all. Why bother when he wasn't toying with anyone else except Mr. Satan. He didn't toy with Vegeta much, He beat him to a pulp. The only toying he did for Vegeta was make him suffer.Same with Fat Boo. Kid Boo even used his candy beam against Goku and that attack is not used when Boo is toying with someone. He couldn't make Goku suffer because they were equal.
Need I remind you that the Genki Dama formed from Earths energy used to defeat Vegeta was the size of a basket ball yet the Genki Dama formed only from the Z-Fighters Ki was massive from the get go. I dont think the idea that everyone has the same amount of Genki holds a lot of water. Especially when you consider the idea the Genki is probably just the majority of useable Ki for techniques. This would explain why Kibito Kaioshin is seen unable to preform IT a Ki based attack. I dont think the idea of Genki being some kind of "life force" holds a lot of water either. If it were some kind of life force Android 17 and 18 shouldnt be able to fuel the bomb. Also what reason was there for Cell to hold back when fighting Goku, what reason was there for Raditz to hold back, or Freeza? No real reason other to have some fun. Which need I remind you Kid Buu is a destructive child-like being. Its in his nature to toy with his opponents. Vegeta was effortlessly beaten this doesnt really help your point. The whole chocolate beam argument can be explained with impulse. Goku irritated him a little and he responded without thinking which makes sense for a child-like character such as Buu.
That was the minimum energy, and was taken from plants, never do I see one person help out. Genki is a different source then Ki. If it worked your way then everyone would have powered up to maximum, or they would have just gone to get senzu beans for Gohan and the boys and send their full power. Genki obviously works a lot differently then ki.

They held back for the fun of it. Same with Boo. If Kid Boo was stronger then Goku the fight would have been one sided. It wasn't. Goku had one weakness with his stamina and energy. If Kid Boo was holding back against Goku then Goku wouldn't have done nearly as well as he did. He was blow for blow. Kid Boo toying with Goku would look similar to what happened to Vegeta if he was holding back.
Do you really think they would even think to try that when giving Genki though? Based on the countless descisions made by these guys that show lack any real thought I doubt it. Umm Cell was stronger than Goku and guess what? it wasnt one sided at all. They fought evenly. Also if Genki "obviously" works different than Ki then why does everyone state they gave Ki or in Goku's case why does he ask for as much Ki as possible. Again I would like to point out that Kibito Kaioshin is unable to preform IT which is a Ki based technique after sending over his Genki. Genki just being the Majority of the usable Ki for techniques is certainly possible and makes a lot sense based on whats given in the manga.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:36 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Do you really think they would even think to try that when giving Genki though? Based on the countless descisions made by these guys that show lack any real thought I doubt it. Umm Cell was stronger than Goku and guess what? it wasnt one sided at all. They fought evenly. Also if Genki "obviously" works different than Ki then why does everyone state they gave Ki or in Goku's case why does he ask for as much Ki as possible. Again I would like to point out that Kibito Kaioshin is unable to preform IT which is a Ki based technique after sending over his Genki. Genki just being the Majority of the usable Ki for techniques is certainly possible and makes a lot sense based on whats given in the manga.
Why do you always use the excuse they would not think that. Piccolo and Gohan are considered incredibly intelligent and know how the Genki-dama works. I would think something obvious like that they would do. Toriyama states Genki and Ki are different, I don't even understand how it fully works. It makes way more sense then the majority of Ki bullshit. It is the same story where they could have got either Gotenks or Gohan to crush Boo. They could have wished Gohans power back, brought him to the Kai planet, and kill Boo. Cell thinks differently then Kid Boo. He likes a good fight and acts like Goku and Vegeta, Kid Boo doesn't care. He wants to kill, murder, destroy. Kid Boo had no reason to hold back against Goku but not against everyone else. Kid Boo doesn't care about a good fight he is mindless. They were clearly equal when they fought blow for blow

Lastly this should really be in another thread. I made 2 new ones to move this to. This thread should stay focused on the topic. So take the argument over to those two new threads.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:48 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Do you really think they would even think to try that when giving Genki though? Based on the countless descisions made by these guys that show lack any real thought I doubt it. Umm Cell was stronger than Goku and guess what? it wasnt one sided at all. They fought evenly. Also if Genki "obviously" works different than Ki then why does everyone state they gave Ki or in Goku's case why does he ask for as much Ki as possible. Again I would like to point out that Kibito Kaioshin is unable to preform IT which is a Ki based technique after sending over his Genki. Genki just being the Majority of the usable Ki for techniques is certainly possible and makes a lot sense based on whats given in the manga.
Why do you always use the excuse they would not think that. Piccolo and Gohan are considered incredibly intelligent and know how the Genki-dama works. I would think something obvious like that they would do. Toriyama states Genki and Ki are different, I don't even understand how it fully works. It makes way more sense then the majority of Ki bullshit. It is the same story where they could have got either Gotenks or Gohan to crush Boo. They could have wished Gohans power back, brought him to the Kai planet, and kill Boo. Cell thinks differently then Kid Boo. He likes a good fight and acts like Goku and Vegeta, Kid Boo doesn't care. He wants to kill, murder, destroy. Kid Boo had no reason to hold back against Goku but not against everyone else. Kid Boo doesn't care about a good fight he is mindless. They were clearly equal when they fought blow for blow

Lastly this should really be in another thread. I made 2 new ones to move this to. This thread should stay focused on the topic. So take the argument over to those two new threads.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:49 pm

I can't be sure if Kaioshin was actually stronger then base vegeta, but he could easily restrain him if he could hold back SSJ2 Gohan. That should count for something.
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Re: If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:58 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:I can't be sure if Kaioshin was actually stronger then base vegeta, but he could easily restrain him if he could hold back SSJ2 Gohan. That should count for something.
Kaioshin stated that it might be hard to restrain Gohan and Vegeta is much stronger at this point in time so he might be unable to do so.
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