Young Kami?

[Mr. Piccolo]

How strong would Kami have been had he been restored to his youthful prime, a la Piccolo Daimao? Old Kami was stronger than young Piccolo Daimao, so how strong would a Young Kami be? I would guess at least equal to Goku or Piccolo Jr. from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but I am wondering what others think.

[Saiga]

Equal to youthful Piccolo. I don't think old Kami was stronger than Piccolo, since he was given a lower battle power in Jump.

[Fox666]

Ignoring the Weekly Jump weird battle power of Kami, he would be like what, beetween 250 and 416? If he was to increase his power at the same rate as Piccolo, he would get at 600 at most, anyway.

[rereboy]

Equal to youthful Piccolo. I don't think old Kami was stronger than Piccolo, since he was given a lower battle power in Jump.

Mr. Popo toyed with Goku (who had just killed Piccolo Daimao) and then stated that Kami was stronger than him. After that Goku attacked Kami thinking he was Piccolo and Kami sent him flying back with a mere flick of his finger.

[Saiga]

Equal to youthful Piccolo. I don't think old Kami was stronger than Piccolo, since he was given a lower battle power in Jump.

Mr. Popo toyed with Goku (who had just killed Piccolo Daimao) and then stated that Kami was stronger than him. After that Goku attacked Kami thinking he was Piccolo and Kami sent him flying back with a mere flick of his finger.

Goku wasn't used to people who could erase their presence and he tired out quickly from the lookout's air.

[Mr. Piccolo]

Equal to youthful Piccolo. I don't think old Kami was stronger than Piccolo, since he was given a lower battle power in Jump.

Mr. Popo toyed with Goku (who had just killed Piccolo Daimao) and then stated that Kami was stronger than him. After that Goku attacked Kami thinking he was Piccolo and Kami sent him flying back with a mere flick of his finger.

Goku wasn't used to people who could erase their presence and he tired out quickly from the lookout's air.

You are right about the thin air of the sanctuary, but I still think that old Kami was stronger than young Piccolo Daimao. Mr. Popo says to Goku: "You defeat Piccolo and think you're the strongest in the world. You forget there is always someone stronger. You can't win against Mr. Popo by strength alone."
(Volume 14, Page 109, Viz edition).

Now, I suppose it could be construed that Goku may be as strong as Mr. Popo but just not as skilled, but given how Popo easily beats Goku, I think it is reasonable to say that Popo is indeed stronger than Goku and that Kami is stronger still, as Mr. Popo says, Kami is "more amazing" than Popo.

My relatively high estimation of Kami's power is based on the above and his ability to give Piccolo Jr. a hard time at the Budokai. Kami even seems to suggest that using a human body weakened him a bit when fighting Piccolo at the Budokai. Of course, even in his own body, Kami was no match for the new Piccolo, but I wonder, if Kami had been restored to his youthful prime, how strong would he have been? I think the power boost would have been large enough to at least equal Goku or Piccolo at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

[Mjb1985]

Yea Kami finger flicked Goku. Kami is tremendously superior to Goku , that's about as superior as you can get.

I would think Kami can probably get around Piccolo / Goku 23rd levels.

Piccolo's comment about how he neglected his training makes me feel he thought Kami could be relevant against him.

[Mjb1985]

Lets not forget that Kami doesn't think Goku has surpassed until way deep into the 23rd Budokai as well.

[mister yummy]

I think Kami got stronger as Piccolo got stronger. Not to the same extent though. I'd put Kami right before he fuses with Piccolo at about 5,000

[Saiga]

To me "You can't win against Mr. Popo by strength alone" makes it sound like Goku is the stronger of the two. Kami only flicked away Goku when he was already exhausted, so it's not conclusive enough on its own.

[Deep Thought]

I don't know, the fact that pre-separation Kami was able to restrain, hide and eventually expel his evil nature strongly implies to me that his good "half" dominated his evil "half" in terms of personality, even if pre-separation Kami was hardly a saint. Assuming he follows the logistics of good Buu and evil Buu, Kami should be stronger then Piccolo Daimao. This is admittedly speculative, Toriyama didn't write the Buu arc until much later, but the idea should still hold, and besides, there are also other factors to consider, such as Kami and Popo's domination of kid Goku. Over all, there seems to be a lot of factors pointing to Kami being significantly stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

Although I guess old Kami could be stronger than old Piccolo Daimao (I'm pretty sure everyone can at least concede on this) but equal to young Piccolo Daimao and still ultimately be the "stronger half" and stronger than Piccolo Daimao as a whole.

[rereboy]

Equal to youthful Piccolo. I don't think old Kami was stronger than Piccolo, since he was given a lower battle power in Jump.

Mr. Popo toyed with Goku (who had just killed Piccolo Daimao) and then stated that Kami was stronger than him. After that Goku attacked Kami thinking he was Piccolo and Kami sent him flying back with a mere flick of his finger.

Goku wasn't used to people who could erase their presence and he tired out quickly from the lookout's air.

That alone doesn't justify in the least the overwhelming superiority of both Mr. Popo and Kami present in their actions and in their statements.

[Mr. Piccolo]

To me "You can't win against Mr. Popo by strength alone" makes it sound like Goku is the stronger of the two. Kami only flicked away Goku when he was already exhausted, so it's not conclusive enough on its own.

Yeah, I think that is a possible interpretation. I still tend to lean toward Mr. Popo and Kami being stronger than Goku and stronger than Piccolo Daimao, though. Kami's showing at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in the body of a weak human was pretty impressive. I assume he was the strongest person on Earth until Piccolo Jr. and Goku surpassed him.

[Mjb1985]

Goku had the same speed against Piccolo Daimao as he did against Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai. Goku has done his ki training and Tenshinhan does not have that experience yet Tenshinhan is able to outclass Goku.

If Goku's ki training is not enough to close the gap between he and Tenshinhan , I don't think ki training is going to effect powers that are too vastly apart.

Also, let's not forget that Tenshinhan ( who is suggested to have surpassed Piccolo Daimao ) cannot hope to compare to Shen , who is not even able to access all of Kami's power.

I believe the 23rd Budokai firmly suggests that Kami is greatly superior to how strong Piccolo Daimao was.

[Saiga]

That alone doesn't justify in the least the overwhelming superiority of both Mr. Popo and Kami present in their actions and in their statements.

Sure it does. Popo's statements imply Goku is stronger, as well.

[rereboy]

That alone doesn't justify in the least the overwhelming superiority of both Mr. Popo and Kami present in their actions and in their statements.

Sure it does. Popo's statements imply Goku is stronger, as well.

He calls him weak several times and even asks if he really did defeat Piccolo in a surprised tone. He concedes that Goku has impressive power (even though he has no remarkable spirit or technique) but he never implies that his raw power is greater than his own. Your interpretation is not the most natural interpretation of what he says.

[Mjb1985]

Well it seems that Saiga is intent on making the power levels work. I would think the majority of us are going to try to make the manga statements work and not really concern ourselves with the power levels. It is pretty interesting to see someone take this stance though, I think I brought up some good points regarding the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and I'm interested in Saiga's response to that.

To me, the situation is about as clear cut as you can get.

Kami > Popo > Goku seems to be as clear as day to me, I don't think Toriyama would try to confuse us in such a manner.

Goku / Piccolo > Kami > Shen > Goku ( Unweighted vs Tien ) > Tien / Goku ( Weighted , Power ) > Goku ( Weighted , Speed ) = Goku ( Vs Piccolo Daimao )


After reading the situations numerous times, I feel pretty comfortable with those two chains. But everyone has their own opinion on things, so to each his own. I still would like to see how Saiga combats the issues I brought up regarding the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai like I mentioned before.

[Saiga]

I don't think Goku is actually the same speed he was against Daimao, because Tenshinhan is able to outclass him. We see in the Saiyan Arc that Tenshinhan is still 10 points lower than Kid Goku and Daimao's battle power. So I think the weights Goku was wearing were much more restrictive.

[Mjb1985]

Interesting, so you boldly claim that many manga characters are said to have lied or been mistaken in order to make those power levels work. That is some commitment there man. Cheers.

[Saiga]

Interesting, so you boldly claim that many manga characters are said to have lied or been mistaken in order to make those power levels work. That is some commitment there man. Cheers.

Knock it off with the condescending attitude. Tenshinhan makes one line about Goku's speed and it doesn't fit with the manga battle powers.