Movie 8 Broly's Strength

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:13 pm

Undertaker wrote:
SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:I always wanted to know if that close range Kamehame-Ha! Broly tanked has same power as the one Goku used Instantaneous Kamehame-Ha! at Perfect Cell. If true, M8 Broly being more powerful than Perfect Cell, who fights Super Saiyan Full Power Son Goku and Son Gohan, maybe possible enough to put him on Full-Power Perfect Cell, which was still inferior to SSjin 2 Gohan's power.
But wait, that was a weaker Goku who charged his Kamehameha for a much longer time vs Cell and was shown exhausted with Cell commenting Goku poured most of his ki into his attack but after attacking Broly, Goku was just stunned the attack did nothing but he was not drained of his ki. Perfect Cell would stomp M8 Broly because the chapter of FP PC was barely in the Manga. That's common sense. 8)
Toei would use Cell Games Arc/Post-ROSAT Goku, with all his abilities and techniques against Broly. All he's done except for punchthrough the stomach, wasn't enough to beat Broly.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:20 pm

Goku looked like a Super Saiyan Full Power in Movie 8, though I don't think he was as strong as he was against Cell.

As for Broli's strength, I currently have him at Full Power Perfect Cell's level, and at Super Perfect Cell's level in Movie 10.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:12 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Undertaker wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I treat him as being in the same tier as SSj2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell.
Perfect Cell would beat him easily. He should be in the same level of Cell Games FPSSjin Goku.
Undertaker wrote: Even though he is wrong?
Would you mind explaining how you reach this particular conclusion? I don't see why it's necessary for Broly to be significantly weaker than Cell.
I have already done. M8 Broly is weaker than Cell because he existed before.
SSJ4_Zankuto wrote:Toei would use Cell Games Arc/Post-ROSAT Goku, with all his abilities and techniques against Broly. All he's done except for punchthrough the stomach, wasn't enough to beat Broly.

How can they use something that they never even made? The Cell Games refers to M9. M8 refers to the earlier arc. I provided evidence in this link.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=22264
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku looked like a Super Saiyan Full Power in Movie 8, though I don't think he was as strong as he was against Cell.

As for Broli's strength, I currently have him at Full Power Perfect Cell's level, and at Super Perfect Cell's level in Movie 10.
Well, I Think it's pretty obvious M8 Goku ~ 10 days SSjin Goku because he had the same look. Broly faced weaker Z Fighters means he is weaker than Cell.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Mystic Gohan » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:59 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Mystic Gohan wrote:Undertaker goes around every forum treating his theories like fact, just saying.

On topic - I think Broly is a movie equivalent of Full Power Perfect Cell.
No, I don't treat them like facts. What forums? How do you know I am even active on the forums? My theories are based on evidence. M8 Broly is not related to Full Power Perfect Cell. This is Bojack.
Typing style is eerily similar, same evidence, same point of view. Your theories could be based on evidence, but you do treat them like facts, hence you cramming your opinion down everyone's throat in this thread.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:06 pm

Mystic Gohan wrote:
Undertaker wrote:
Mystic Gohan wrote:Undertaker goes around every forum treating his theories like fact, just saying.

On topic - I think Broly is a movie equivalent of Full Power Perfect Cell.
No, I don't treat them like facts. What forums? How do you know I am even active on the forums? My theories are based on evidence. M8 Broly is not related to Full Power Perfect Cell. This is Bojack.
Typing style is eerily similar, same evidence, same point of view. Your theories could be based on evidence, but you do treat them like facts, hence you cramming your opinion down everyone's throat in this thread.
No, I don't treat them as facts. So you know who I am? Tell me who you are. First guess, are you active on DBZF?

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Kaboom » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm

We don't need inter-community drama shenanigans, please. Keep it on-topic.
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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Nazi Cola » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:23 pm

Undertaker wrote:I have already done. M8 Broly is weaker than Cell because he existed before.
Using this logic, one could say Bio-Broly > Movie 10 LSSjin Broly, couldn't he?
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:27 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:
Undertaker wrote:I have already done. M8 Broly is weaker than Cell because he existed before.
Using this logic, one could say Bio-Broly > Movie 10 LSSjin Broly, couldn't he?
M11 Broly is weaker because he faced weaker Z Fighters. Perfect Cell's full power was barely in the Manga.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Zephyr » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:42 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Would you mind explaining how you reach this particular conclusion? I don't see why it's necessary for Broly to be significantly weaker than Cell.
I have already done. M8 Broly is weaker than Cell because he existed before.
There's no logical connection there, though.

Perfect Cell was stronger than everybody at the Cell Games (sans SSj2 Gohan). Broly was stronger than everybody who came to fight him.

X is greater than A. Y is also greater than A.

There's not a single shred of evidence that results in the absolutely necessary conclusion that Broly is weaker or stronger than Perfect Cell.

We can't conclude whether X > Y, X < Y, or X = Y. All we know is that X > A, and Y > A, and not a single thing else.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Nazi Cola » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:55 am

Basically that.^

There is no connection, so really, there is no right or wrong answer. If someone thinks Broly is weaker than Cell, whatever, as long as Broly's a lot stronger than the Z Fighters. Same for the flip side.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:31 am

Zephyr wrote:
Undertaker wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Would you mind explaining how you reach this particular conclusion? I don't see why it's necessary for Broly to be significantly weaker than Cell.
I have already done. M8 Broly is weaker than Cell because he existed before.
There's no logical connection there, though.

Perfect Cell was stronger than everybody at the Cell Games (sans SSj2 Gohan). Broly was stronger than everybody who came to fight him.

X is greater than A. Y is also greater than A.

There's not a single shred of evidence that results in the absolutely necessary conclusion that Broly is weaker or stronger than Perfect Cell.

We can't conclude whether X > Y, X < Y, or X = Y. All we know is that X > A, and Y > A, and not a single thing else.
Broly faced weaker Z Fighters so he is weaker, no? He is weaker than Hatchiyack who should be close to FP PC IMO.
Nazi Cola wrote:Basically that.^

There is no connection, so really, there is no right or wrong answer. If someone thinks Broly is weaker than Cell, whatever, as long as Broly's a lot stronger than the Z Fighters. Same for the flip side.
Weaker Z Fighters means a weaker villain.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Zephyr » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:02 am

Undertaker wrote:Weaker Z Fighters means a weaker villain.
That's not how logic works. Let's assume these variables:

X = Perfect Cell
Y = LSSj M8 Broly
A = Cell Games heroes
B = M8 heroes

Now we will use these variables to convert your argument into some premises, and the conclusion:

[P] X > A is true
[P] Y > B is true
[P] A > B is true
[C] Therefore, X > Y is true

This is what we call invalid. The premises do not necessarily lead to the conclusion.

In English: The heroes were outclassed drastically in both fights. Just because the heroes may be a tad stronger during one of the fights than in the other, does not mean that the villains' strength must also be different accordingly. There's not a strict, unwritten rule about exactly how much stronger the villain is than the heroes during a fight. The only plausible conclusion to be reached is that Perfect Cell and Movie 8 LSSj Broly are leagues above any of the pre-Buu arc heroes (sans the obvious SSj2 Gohan).

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:34 am

Zephyr wrote:
Undertaker wrote:Weaker Z Fighters means a weaker villain.
That's not how logic works. Let's assume these variables:

X = Perfect Cell
Y = LSSj M8 Broly
A = Cell Games heroes
B = M8 heroes

Now we will use these variables to convert your argument into some premises, and the conclusion:

[P] X > A is true
[P] Y > B is true
[P] A > B is true
[C] Therefore, X > Y is true

This is what we call invalid. The premises do not necessarily lead to the conclusion.

In English: The heroes were outclassed drastically in both fights. Just because the heroes may be a tad stronger during one of the fights than in the other, does not mean that the villains' strength must also be different accordingly. There's not a strict, unwritten rule about exactly how much stronger the villain is than the heroes during a fight. The only plausible conclusion to be reached is that Perfect Cell and Movie 8 LSSj Broly are leagues above any of the pre-Buu arc heroes (sans the obvious SSj2 Gohan).
But Cell Games Z Fighters are not a tad stronger, they are massively stronger. Toei makes the villains just stronger than the last levels in the Anime which is why Super 13 is not stronger than Android 16 because he appeared before. If the Z Fighters are weaker so the villain is stronger which is also why the new movie villains are stronger than the last ones. Bojack > M8 Broly and Bojack is in par with Full Power Perfect Cell IMO. M8 Broly is not leagues ahead of Cell Games characters. Those are Bojack and Cell. M8 was made before the Cell Games.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Zephyr » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:31 am

Undertaker wrote:But Cell Games Z Fighters are not a tad stronger, they are massively stronger.
What single thing indicates this?

Maybe a chart will help show that they're able to be on par with each other without a single depicted event being contradicted?
Image

Both villains are leagues above their respective adversaries. The Cell Games heroes are still way above their Movie 8 counterparts. And it's still entirely feasible for Broly and Cell to be on par, or for one of them to be superior/inferior to the other.

Do you at least understand why it's not a necessary conclusion for Cell to be stronger?

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:16 am

Zephyr wrote:
Undertaker wrote:But Cell Games Z Fighters are not a tad stronger, they are massively stronger.
What single thing indicates this?

Maybe a chart will help show that they're able to be on par with each other without a single depicted event being contradicted?
Image

Both villains are leagues above their respective adversaries. The Cell Games heroes are still way above their Movie 8 counterparts. And it's still entirely feasible for Broly and Cell to be on par, or for one of them to be superior/inferior to the other.

Do you at least understand why it's not a necessary conclusion for Cell to be stronger?
But it's not how it works. This is like saying Super Android 13 can be equal to FP PC because
he also beat the Z Fighters. You are trying to say the difference between the Z Fighters to Broly was greater than the difference between Cell to the Z Fighters and that's not implied and Toei always makes the stronger villain facing the stronger Z Fighters

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Zephyr » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:42 am

Undertaker wrote:This is like saying Super Android 13 can be equal to FP PC because
he also beat the Z Fighters.
No, because the Movie 7 heroes have their pre-RoSaT designs, while the Movie 8 heroes have their post-RoSaT designs.

The heroes of Movies 8, 9, and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans all have their post-RoSaT Cell Games era designs. This implies that they all have a roughly equal level of power. The common assumption made in order to rationalize Movie 8 taking place is that there wasn't as much RoSaT training, which is fine, but that little bit of training they had for the Cell Games wouldn't skyrocket them to a significantly higher tier of power.

But I don't seem to be getting through to you in the slightest. You're too hell-bent on using your own subjective rationalizations of things as an objective source in this discussion, and there's no value in that. I've said all that can be said.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:11 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Undertaker wrote:This is like saying Super Android 13 can be equal to FP PC because
he also beat the Z Fighters.
No, because the Movie 7 heroes have their pre-RoSaT designs, while the Movie 8 heroes have their post-RoSaT designs.

The heroes of Movies 8, 9, and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans all have their post-RoSaT Cell Games era designs. This implies that they all have a roughly equal level of power. The common assumption made in order to rationalize Movie 8 taking place is that there wasn't as much RoSaT training, which is fine, but that little bit of training they had for the Cell Games wouldn't skyrocket them to a significantly higher tier of power.

But I don't seem to be getting through to you in the slightest. You're too hell-bent on using your own subjective rationalizations of things as an objective source in this discussion, and there's no value in that. I've said all that can be said.
M8 Z Fighters are not Cell Games levels which is why you think there is no proof. M8 Vegeta and Trunks are 1st Post seen as Vegeta was kicking and blasting Broly like he did vs Cell and he was USSjin and the movie was produced at that time. M8 Goku and Gohan don't have their Cell Games treats or designs. They actually have their round eyes when they were in their resting selves which imply this was their level since they were at that level when the movie was produced. M5 and M4 Gohan have the same look and design. That doesn't make them equals. Trunks has short hair in the OVA which supports M8 10 days state and Gohan never even had his Cell Games outfit. I understand what you say but since Broly faced much weaker Z Fighters so he is weaker than Cell. Can you show me some character who was stronger than someone who was barely in the Manga?

The way I see M8 Z Fighters is M8 Goku ~ 10 days SSjin Goku and 25% of his Cell Games self, M8 Gohan is the same like Goku but considered as the weakest because he was not known as the strongest, M8 Vegeta and Trunks are 1st Post and the ones who beat Semi Perfect Cell, M8 Piccolo is weaker than 1st Post Trunks and Vegeta while in the Cell Games (at least in the Anime) he is stronger

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Kaboom » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:50 pm

You don't seem to understand what some are trying to tell you, Undertaker. The heroes being weaker in Movie 8 than they were in the Cell Games is a good theory. But there is no actual proof of it. "X came before Y" is not proof. It's not good enough to convince other people that it's the solid fact you're treating it as.
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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Zephyr » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:59 pm

Undertaker wrote:M8 Goku and Gohan don't have their Cell Games treats or designs. They actually have their round eyes when they were in their resting selves which imply this was their level since they were at that level when the movie was produced.
Wait, so now you're trying to argue that there's even the slightest difference in power between Goku and Gohan during their post-RoSaT rest period and the Cell Games? Really? They literally lazed about that entire 10 days.

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Re: Movie 8 Broly's Strength

Post by Undertaker » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:39 pm

Kaboom wrote:You don't seem to understand what some are trying to tell you, Undertaker. The heroes being weaker in Movie 8 than they were in the Cell Games is a good theory. But there is no actual proof of it. "X came before Y" is not proof. It's not good enough to convince other people that it's the solid fact you're treating it as.

Even though I have provided a lot of evidence before? It never existed makes it fact. Only M9 refers to the Cell Games. Toei's design show Trunks and Vegeta in their 1st Post state, M8 Goku and Gohan in their 10 days state.
Zephyr wrote:Wait, so now you're trying to argue that there's even the slightest difference in power between Goku and Gohan during their post-RoSaT rest period and the Cell Games? Really? They literally lazed about that entire 10 days.
You see, that's the problem of people who can't understand the difference between 10 days Goku and Gohan to Cell Games Goku and Gohan. 10 days Goku and Gohan displayed way less power

Cell Games FPSSjin Goku > 50% MSSjin Goku > 10 days SSjin Goku ~ M8 Goku

M8 was produced by the time after Cell went perfect until just before the Cell Games which means Cell Games Goku and Gohan never existed but only 10 days SSjin Goku and Gohan which is why Gohan is so weak, Goku's 10 days state is his level in the M8 universe IMO based on his look and the fact that it was the only thing which was produced at that time. I have already explained it in this link

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=22264

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