How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Zephyr]

Everything worth citing proves just that. But feel free to show me otherwise.

Goku saying they can't beat Super Buu without fusing, and then being able to handle Kid Buu in a fight by himself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Everything worth citing proves just that. But feel free to show me otherwise.

We already know that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Evil Boo, and that SS3 Gotenks was at least equal with Evil Boo. With that said, let's see why Goku is not stronger than Evil Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

So, Evil Boo > SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

This means that S. Kaioshin Boo > Evil Boo > SS3 Goku.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

These tell us that Boo's power was decreased when he reverted from S. Kaioshin Boo, to Pure Boo, that Dai Kaioshin was the only one that lowered Boo's power, while South Kaioshin increased Boo's power, and that if Goku could go at full power, he would be able to wipe out Pure Boo (but he couldn't go full power because of Super Saiyan 3's flaws).

So, with all these into consideration, we have Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks >/= Evil Boo > SS3 Goku > Pure Boo. Or, Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.

If you are going to use the Genki Dama not being strong enough with Ultimate Gohan's power, think again. According to Toriyama, ki is composed by genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). The Genki Dama doesn't take all of the ki, only the genki part. So, the Genki Dama doesn't contain Ultimate Gohan's maximum ki, only a small part of it. And since genki is one's energy, Gohan (and everyone else who gave their genki) should be exhausted, since he gave all of his energy/genki to the Genki Dama. If the Genki Dama could take ones full ki, then why didn't the boys merge into SS3 Gotenks and then donate their own genki? Because it can't take one's maximum ki.



Now, explain the indications in the manga that make Goku stronger than Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Everything worth citing proves just that. But feel free to show me otherwise.

We already know that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Evil Boo, and that SS3 Gotenks was at least equal with Evil Boo. With that said, let's see why Goku is not stronger than Evil Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

So, Evil Boo > SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

This means that S. Kaioshin Boo > Evil Boo > SS3 Goku.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

These tell us that Boo's power was decreased when he reverted from S. Kaioshin Boo, to Pure Boo, that Dai Kaioshin was the only one that lowered Boo's power, while South Kaioshin increased Boo's power, and that if Goku could go at full power, he would be able to wipe out Pure Boo (but he couldn't go full power because of Super Saiyan 3's flaws).

So, with all these into consideration, we have Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks >/= Evil Boo > SS3 Goku > Pure Boo. Or, Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > SS3 Goku.

If you are going to use the Genki Dama not being strong enough with Ultimate Gohan's power, think again. According to Toriyama, ki is composed by genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). The Genki Dama doesn't take all of the ki, only the genki part. So, the Genki Dama doesn't contain Ultimate Gohan's maximum ki, only a small part of it. And since genki is one's energy, Gohan (and everyone else who gave their genki) should be exhausted, since he gave all of his energy/genki to the Genki Dama.

Now, explain the indications in the manga that make Goku stronger than Gohan.

You forgot to add that if the Genki-Dama could take ones full ki, why didn't the boys fuse into SSJ3 Gotenks and then donate their Genki. Thats because it doesn't work like that. Also great case and is how I see it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You forgot to add that if the Genki-Dama could take ones full ki, why didn't the boys fuse into SSJ3 Gotenks and then donate their Genki. Thats because it doesn't work like that. Also great case and is how I see it.

Thanks, I edited my post.

[Amuro Ray]

Everything worth citing proves just that. But feel free to show me otherwise.

Goku saying they can't beat Super Buu without fusing, and then being able to handle Kid Buu in a fight by himself.

No. He didn't stay that -


Goku and Vegeta make the assumption at after everyone has been saved, they can beat Buu. At this point, they didn't know about fat buu's separate presence in the body - The only result of removing everyone would have been Superbuu.


Here we see Goku threatening BUU.


Here Buu is explaining that Goku's size makes him essentially impotent.

So what if you don't except that explanation? Fair, but continue reading and remember the key word is context


Here we see that Buu is actually becoming stronger as he transforms. Also note Vegeta is referencing Buu's size, not his power



And finally, the Kibito explains the origins of "Fat Buu"


Here is where there is confusion - People state that "Buff Boo" was originally stronger than "PureBuu", but here we learn that's not the case. By absorbing Dia Kiaoushin, he actually became weaker than he is now.

These are facts and not open to interpretation by you or me.
"Fat Buu" is the result of the asborbtion of a Kia
"Fat Buu" is stated to be weaker than both "Superbuu" and "Kidbuu"
On his transformation to "kiddbuu" his power is suggested to be increasing.

So what does this have to do with Goku?


States that he wants to fight Buu under his own power, and not with Fusion.


What is really important here is Goku's confession - he could have beaten Buu himself and that in order for him to face Buu, he would have to use his unproven/untested SSJ3 form. Don't believe me - read further


Finally, Vegeta provides us insight to what we already know - Goku is the strongest



I think this is the single most important panel that I posted. Here we can clearly see Goku had his doubts about the SSJ3 form to which he doesn't have much experience in, which is why he is reluctant to use it and would have preferred the easier route of Fusion. It's heavily implied here that SSJ3 is a last resort because it's unproven and untested.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

First of all, these scanlations have terrible translations. They are not accurate at all.
Secondly, how can you counter what I proved?

[TheMightyOzaru]

How convenient, you completely avoided the page where Goku said Super Buu is too much for them.

[Amuro Ray]

First of all, these scanlations have terrible translations. They are not accurate at all.
Secondly, how can you counter what I proved?

Feel free to post more accurate translations, which would say the same exact thing that I posted. The story fits logically and flows better when explained in this manner, as opposed to Gohan was stronger but no one, not even the Kais, thought of bringing him back (as they had done with Goku) to fight Buu - and the stakes are much higher this time around.

By hanging onto one statement, and taking it completely out of context, you're not only doing yourself a disservice, but the whole story as well.

[Amuro Ray]

How convenient, you completely avoided the page where Goku said Super Buu is too much for them.

It was already posted, no need to rehash what was already stated.

[Godo]

To add my two cents, Gohan is verily much an Earhling, born and raised.
Living on Earth where he has spent most of his days.
Born, grown up, fighting and all cool, studying at home instead of at a school.
Just because a couple of guys, who were up to no good, sent his alien father into his Earthly neighborhood.
Then some of you people don't think things trough because you are scared (I say) "Gohan is as much as an Earthling as he is a Saiya-Jin".

What Vegeta was meaning was that the population of the Earth had to take their ticket and go on with their way.
To pack their energy and give out lots so that Buu's ass, they could as well kick it,
First class, Genki is so rad, Gohan would drink Buu's pink ass out of a champagne glass.
The Earthlings would say "is this defending ourselves would feel like? hmm, we might be alright".

I could go on but it's late.

Stop with the Kid Buu vs. Super Buu discussion. Please. Can one thread be spared?
I believe that there are a handful of threads from the last month or so you can discuss that in.
Please.
For the love of God. Stop.

[Amuro Ray]

To add my two cents, Gohan is verily much an Earhling, born and raised.
Living on Earth where he has spent most of his days.
Born, grown up, fighting and all cool, studying at home instead of at a school.
Just because a couple of guys, who were up to no good, sent his alien father into his Earthly neighborhood.
Then some of you people don't think things trough because you are scared (I say) "Gohan is as much as an Earthling as he is a Saiya-Jin".

What Vegeta was meaning was that the population of the Earth had to take their ticket and go on with their way.
To pack their energy and give out lots so that Buu's ass, they could as well kick it,
First class, Genki is so rad, Gohan would drink Buu's pink ass out of a champagne glass.
The Earthlings would say "is this defending ourselves would feel like? hmm, we might be alright".

I could go on but it's late.

Stop with the Kid Buu vs. Super Buu discussion. Please. Can one thread be spared?
I believe that there are a handful of threads from the last month or so you can discuss that in.
Please.
For the love of God. Stop.

You don't have to join the discussion, just saying.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Feel free to post more accurate translations, which would say the same exact thing that I posted. The story fits logically and flows better when explained in this manner, as opposed to Gohan was stronger but no one, not even the Kais, thought of bringing him back (as they had done with Goku) to fight Buu - and the stakes are much higher this time around.

By hanging onto one statement, and taking it completely out of context, you're not only doing yourself a disservice, but the whole story as well.

I already did that, check my post above. The quotes are direct translations from the Japanese manga by Herms, who knows Japanese, and even used to live in Japan.

[dbzfan7]

Feel free to post more accurate translations, which would say the same exact thing that I posted. The story fits logically and flows better when explained in this manner, as opposed to Gohan was stronger but no one, not even the Kais, thought of bringing him back (as they had done with Goku) to fight Buu - and the stakes are much higher this time around.

By hanging onto one statement, and taking it completely out of context, you're not only doing yourself a disservice, but the whole story as well.

I already did that, check my post above. The quotes are direct translations from the Japanese manga by Herms, who knows Japanese, and even used to live in Japan.

He conveniently skipped the page in the poorly translated version which is right here.

How convenient, you completely avoided the page where Goku said Super Buu is too much for them.

Exactly. If he wants to go by the poorly translated version, he sure missed this page.

[Amuro Ray]

Feel free to post more accurate translations, which would say the same exact thing that I posted. The story fits logically and flows better when explained in this manner, as opposed to Gohan was stronger but no one, not even the Kais, thought of bringing him back (as they had done with Goku) to fight Buu - and the stakes are much higher this time around.

By hanging onto one statement, and taking it completely out of context, you're not only doing yourself a disservice, but the whole story as well.

I already did that, check my post above. The quotes are direct translations from the Japanese manga by Herms, who knows Japanese, and even used to live in Japan.

You can link it to me? And again, you are using one statement > all which doesn't work in the context of the story. You're creating plot holes and ignoring massive amounts of implied evidence to support your failed position. It just doesn't fit within the context of the story, and even Toei thought so too, which is why the Anime carries the path that it does.

[Amuro Ray]

Feel free to post more accurate translations, which would say the same exact thing that I posted. The story fits logically and flows better when explained in this manner, as opposed to Gohan was stronger but no one, not even the Kais, thought of bringing him back (as they had done with Goku) to fight Buu - and the stakes are much higher this time around.

By hanging onto one statement, and taking it completely out of context, you're not only doing yourself a disservice, but the whole story as well.

I already did that, check my post above. The quotes are direct translations from the Japanese manga by Herms, who knows Japanese, and even used to live in Japan.

He conveniently skipped the page in the poorly translated version which is right here.

It wasn't skipped to omit information - we already know what the the statement in question is. Why don't you stop fixating on this one panel and address what I said.

[dbzfan7]

It wasn't skipped to omit information - we already know what the the statement in question is. Why don't you stop fixating on this one panel and address what I say.

Riiiiiiight. You ignore the proper translations by herms and skipped this page for a poor reason. Guys this might be troll #2 after zSuper Vegetaz.

You want to support yourself better, use these accurate quotes by herms. These are properly translated unlike the poor quality translations your using.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488

[Fox666]

deleted

[The Monkey King]

Sorry, but I personally find it really stupid that Goku and Vegeta have a 6th sense to accurately measure how powerful an enemy is (ki sense), use it to measure that Buff Buu is stronger then suddenly start measuring enemy threat by size instead of ki when Buff Buu shrinks down to Kid Buu for no apparent reason. It makes no sense.

Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu

Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

[dbzfan7]

Only the second troll?

Second troll in rapid concession. No point in me staying here now.

[Amuro Ray]

It wasn't skipped to omit information - we already know what the the statement in question is. Why don't you stop fixating on this one panel and address what I say.

Riiiiiiight. You ignore the proper translations by herms and skipped this page for a poor reason. Guys this might be troll #2 after zSuper Vegetaz.

How, I don't even know where you found it - which is why I asked you to link it to me?
Otherwise, what was post doesn't refute what I posted at all, it actually compliments it quite well, especially this tidbit.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

^ There is NOTHING that states that he got weaker. Nothing.