Base Saiyans and Freeza

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Kamiccolo9
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Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 pm

So, I'd like to know everyones' opinion on the Base Saiyan<Freeza comment from Battle of Gods.
Here is the quote from the synopsis of the movie on this site:
Changing the subject a bit, Beerus says that he heard Goku was the one who defeated Freeza. However, he thinks Goku as he is now would not be capable of defeating Freeza, but apparently he can by powering up by transforming into a Super Saiyan...

(If anyone here has seen the movie and knows the exact quote, that would be awesome.)

I myself have no problem taking this as a fact in my own personal canon, but I know at least some of the people I have talked to here dismiss it. So, what I'd like to get is a general view of what everyone thinks, and whether or not this quote should be taken at face value and applied to the series as a whole.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Draken » Thu May 09, 2013 11:35 pm

I see nothing wrong with that, especially when it's been shown that Piccolo at something like 8% stronger than Raditz could 1 shot him, or Vegeta at 9% stronger than Dodoria could 1 shot him. Powers don't need to inflate and have as huge a gap as many people would like to believe.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Saiga » Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 pm

I already thought the base Saiyans were below Freeza, so that doesn't effect me at all. Although, if I did believe the base Saiyans were stronger, BoG wouldn't make me change my mind.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 pm

Freeza could very well be stronger than the Base Saiyans, but I'm sure one can say Goku was suppressed there as well. I still have yet to see the movie, so I can only give my opinion based on the synopsis.

I'm okay with Freeza being stronger than them....but I'm also okay with the Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza. I've went back and forth on the comparison between the Base Saiyans and Freeza for a while, so that's why I'm okay with either of them being more powerful.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Undertaker » Fri May 10, 2013 5:43 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Freeza could very well be stronger than the Base Saiyans, but I'm sure one can say Goku was suppressed there as well. I still have yet to see the movie, so I can only give my opinion based on the synopsis.

I'm okay with Freeza being stronger than them....but I'm also okay with the Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza. I've went back and forth on the comparison between the Base Saiyans and Freeza for a while, so that's why I'm okay with either of them being more powerful.
It's stated that Base Goku can't beat Frieza but he can when he goes SSJ so nothing was suppressed and that's a mere conjuncture. No way in hell Base Saiyans are weaker than Frieza. Base Saiyans should be far ahead of Frieza in the Cell Arc. 1st Post Vegeta is probably ahead of Frieza.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by BejitaSama » Fri May 10, 2013 6:00 am

I see nothing wrong with that, especially when it's been shown that Piccolo at something like 8% stronger than Raditz could 1 shot him, or Vegeta at 9% stronger than Dodoria could 1 shot him. Powers don't need to inflate and have as huge a gap as many people would like to believe.
I totally agree with that. You should also apply it for the Buu saga :lol:

I have base Gokû at 100,000,000 during the Buu saga. Maybe I saw him In SSJ a little bit too high.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by The Monkey King » Fri May 10, 2013 6:45 am

IMO: Base Buu saga Goku's PL = 50million

I use to think base saiyans were stronger. But now I've changed by mind.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Fri May 10, 2013 7:19 am

I really don't mind if Base Saiyans is still weaker than 50% & 100% Frieza in the Boo Saga. They'll rely on Super Saiyan transformations to defeat Frieza and even Mecha Frieza. I have Buu Saga Base Goku at 21,250,000.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri May 10, 2013 9:01 am

Seeing as how Goku still had trouble with Freeza at 150,000,000, I have no problem with putting Goku at 130,000,000 in base during BoG. Plus I don't think Goku was showing all of his power, more like 70-80% of it. Either way though base Goku is still around Freeza.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri May 10, 2013 9:39 am

I wouldn't have a problem with it either. There was nothing 100% concrete regarding the Base Saiyans power being above Super Saiyan. The only time we see that was with Ssj Trunks vs Base Gohan. And even then it would just be that Trunks is a weak Super Saiyan.

There is a ton of room between 3 million and say 100 million. And as mentioned before, gaps do not have to be that large. Zarbon was 96% of Vegeta and couldn't even land a hit on him.

Vegeta's initial power was enough to have a solid edge against Kaioken Goku. Vegeta's full power was 18,000 and Goku's Kaioken was over 16,000. So Vegeta's initial power handling Goku should scream that small gaps kill.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:34 am

Undertaker wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Freeza could very well be stronger than the Base Saiyans, but I'm sure one can say Goku was suppressed there as well. I still have yet to see the movie, so I can only give my opinion based on the synopsis.

I'm okay with Freeza being stronger than them....but I'm also okay with the Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza. I've went back and forth on the comparison between the Base Saiyans and Freeza for a while, so that's why I'm okay with either of them being more powerful.
It's stated that Base Goku can't beat Freeza but he can when he goes SSJ so nothing was suppressed and that's a mere conjuncture. No way in hell Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Base Saiyans should be far ahead of Freeza in the Cell Arc. 1st Post Vegeta is probably ahead of Freeza.
If you don't mind me asking, what have the base Saiyans done, that puts them far above Freeza?
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri May 10, 2013 11:53 am

Not much.

1) Base Gohan manhandling Ssj Trunks.
2) Base Trunks kiai against Imperfect Cell
3) Base Vegeta / Goku fighting Pui Pui / Yakon

That's really all that ever happened.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:36 pm

And of course, Kid Trunks fighting with #18--with the Daiz saying the kids demonstrated power on-par with #18 before seeing who they really were.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:38 pm

Ah can't believe I forgot that one! That's the most important one of all. That's generally where I like to place them. Around 18's level. The adults I have more on 16's level.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:And of course, Kid Trunks fighting with #18--with the Daiz saying the kids demonstrated power on-par with #18 before seeing who they really were.
Well, they did turn Super Saiyan right before she figured out who they were :D
But it's highly likely that 18 was suppressed in this fight. She thought she was fighting Earthlings, after all. She wouldn't want to slaughter one by accident and lose the prize money.
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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:45 pm

18 immediately recognized she was not fighting an ordinary human right off the bat before they even started fighting. 18 was pretty awed by their power.

Now I don't think she was going all out, I think she was using some effort definitely. It's not like 18 thought she was fighting someone like Mr. Satan or Videl.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 10, 2013 12:59 pm

I've always assumed they stayed below 50% of Freeza's power. I keep mentioning this but unless all the Earthlings somehow increased their battle powers so they were several times stronger then there is no way Base Goku can be above 60 million otherwise the Genki Dama would be ineffective against Pure Boo.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Mjb1985 » Fri May 10, 2013 1:04 pm

I don't think power level had anything to do with the Spirit Bomb. I think Goku was just too exhausted to give it a final push.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 10, 2013 2:53 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:I don't think power level had anything to do with the Spirit Bomb. I think Goku was just too exhausted to give it a final push.
Power level does have something to do with the Genki Dama. Each person contributes the genki portion of their ki. Ki has relevance to power level. So does the Genki portion of ki. Whatever percentage of Genki makes up the persons entire ki would have some sort of power level associated with it. For instance; if the person has a power level of 5 then however much ki translates into a power level of 5 would have a certain percentage of Genki. Breaking that down further we get a power level value of that specific ki. So:

Power Level: 5

Genki : 300(33% of overall ki)
Yuuki: 300(33% of overall ki)
Shouki: 300(33% of overall ki)

Power Level of Genki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65
Power Level of Yuuki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65
Power Level of Shouki ki: 5 x 0.33 = 1.65

^ Using the example above if each sub-component contributes an even amount to a persons overall ki then the Genki Dama would have 1.65 power level from each individuals Genki. If the Earths population was 8 billion and every person had a powerlevel of 5 then you'd have a Genki Dama with the power level of 13,200,000,000. Tag on the 100, or so, Namekians which have varying power levels from 1,000 up to 10,000+ and its not going to be much bigger. Then add on Enma Daiou and his henchmen, still not much of an increase. The largest contribution besides the Earthling's will be Ultimate Gohan and even he is only going to donate 33% of his Genki, if we go by my above example of each sub-component of ki being an equal balance.

The point is, if Goku exceeds Freeza then 13.2 Billion is going to be chump change for Pure Boo to stop as if we put Base Goku at 120 million then Goku at SSJ2 would be at 12 billion. At SSJ3 Goku would be at 48 Billion. Ultimate Gohan would have to provide nearly 35 Billion just for the Genki Dama to match Goku's SSJ3 form.

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Re: Base Saiyans and Freeza

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 10, 2013 3:02 pm

Undertaker wrote:No way in hell Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Base Saiyans should be far ahead of Freeza in the Cell Arc. 1st Post Vegeta is probably ahead of Freeza.
Now, where would we see any evidence to back this idea up? What makes this anything but conjecture?

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