SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Hitiro » Sun May 26, 2013 3:43 pm

Draken wrote:
Hitiro wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I always thought Cell was just referring to his current power there. When Goku releases all of his power, Krillin says Goku's Chi is "immeasurable" and beyond all of them. Krillin was also convinced Trunks would beat Cell and was surprised that he didn't. If Trunks is stronger than full-power Cell, then Goku's power wouldn't be impressive or worth noting at that point. Heck, even Trunks was astonished at Goku's display of power. I think Cell's full-power is in another league compared to any of the Super Saiyans.
I think Tunks was impressed by Goku's power because he demonstrated ki comparable to Super Vegeta and Super Trunks as just a regular SSJ. It wasn't to do with the power alone but rather the transformation he was using to demonstrate the power. If Goku came along and is nearly as strong as SSJ2 Gohan as just a SSJ I'm pretty sure people would be impressed even though he isn't as strong as SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ. It would still be an impressive feat.
How would they know he's only a SSJ though? They weren't physically there watching, they only sensed his power.
I would assume they would sense if he was undergoing a transformation. Everything the other characters say about Goku seems to be pointing out they still think he's just in his SSJ form. Vegeta even says "Kakarot has judged the original SSJ form as the best fighting form." I assume SSJG2 and SSJG3 have a different ki configuration compared to the regular SSJ form. Much like how Gohan thinks he senses his father because he senses a SSJ ki from Trunks when Trunks takes out Freeza.

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Mjb1985 » Sun May 26, 2013 4:43 pm

I used to feel Grade 3 Trunks was superior to 50% Goku's power, who fell in line with Base Cell's power.

After years though I have finally changed my mind. 50% Goku is without a doubt the strongest power to have been showcased in the manga up until this point imo.

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bussani » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:37 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Undertaker wrote:He was keeping up with him in his resting state which is lower than his 50%
But that's also an assumption, not a fact.
Cell Games FPSSJ Goku > 50% MSSJ Goku > USSJ2 Trunks > Initial Perfect Cell ~ 10 Days Goku
Why can't it be Cell Games FPSSJ Goku > USSJ2 Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku > Initial Perfect Cell ~ 10 Days Goku?
Because USSJ2 Trunks surpasses Initial Perfect Cell and 10 days Goku.
He does in my suggestion above as well.
50% MSSJ Goku is considerably stronger.
You keep saying that, but you haven't given me any evidence that makes it a fact. And remember, that's what I'm really getting at. If you think Goku at half power was stronger than Grade III Trunks, then that's cool--that's a fine opinion. But you said it was a fact, and I'm trying to understand why.
Everyone thought it was Goku's full power and thought he might be able to win against Cell.
Which proves that 50% of Goku's power was around Initial Cell's power--maybe a bit stronger even. Again, my suggestion above seems to account for that. I don't see why that means Grade III Trunks has to be weaker.

In case it's not clear, I'm talking about raw power, not fighting ability. Obviously 50% Goku could outright Grade III Trunks, just as Cell did.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Undertaker » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:33 pm

Bussani wrote:Which proves that 50% of Goku's power was around Initial Cell's power--maybe a bit stronger even. Again, my suggestion above seems to account for that. I don't see why that means Grade III Trunks has to be weaker.
In case it's not clear, I'm talking about raw power, not fighting ability. Obviously 50% Goku could outright Grade III Trunks, just as Cell did.
Resting Goku is much weaker than 50% Goku seen as he made a big power up and everyone was shocked. Resting Goku was in par with the Cell who beat Trunks so we know USSJ2 Trunks > Initial Perfect Cell ~ Resting Goku. However, 50% MSSJ Goku should be considerably stronger and everyne thought it was Goku's max. Trunks was shocked at his power despite having the power of a USSJ2. 50% MSSJ Goku > USSJ2 Trunks > Initial Perfect Cell ~ Resting MSSJ Goku

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bussani » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:55 pm

Undertaker wrote:However, 50% MSSJ Goku should be considerably stronger and everyne thought it was Goku's max. Trunks was shocked at his power despite having the power of a USSJ2. 50% MSSJ Goku > USSJ2 Trunks > Initial Perfect Cell ~ Resting MSSJ Goku
You're giving decent reasons for your opinion, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I still see nothing that makes it a fact, and I don't think I'm going to at this rate.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:59 pm

Undertaker, I don't think you've noticed yet, but there's a limit to how many quotes you can have all nested together. From now on when you quote someone, please edit out all but their last line rather than making the quote chain bigger and bigger.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Undertaker » Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:18 am

Bussani wrote:
Undertaker wrote:However, 50% MSSJ Goku should be considerably stronger and everyne thought it was Goku's max. Trunks was shocked at his power despite having the power of a USSJ2. 50% MSSJ Goku > USSJ2 Trunks > Initial Perfect Cell ~ Resting MSSJ Goku
You're giving decent reasons for your opinion, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I still see nothing that makes it a fact, and I don't think I'm going to at this rate.
By that logic Cell Games Vegeta is around USSJ2 Trunks. Vegeta considered 50% MSSJ Goku as the tough guy. Everyone thought he might beat Cell. If resting Goku is in par with the Cell who fought USSJ2 Trunks so 50% MSSJ Goku is stronger IMO

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bussani » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:22 am

Undertaker wrote:By that logic Cell Games Vegeta is around USSJ2 Trunks.
Why's that? Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing--I just don't see how we got to that conclusion.
Vegeta considered 50% MSSJ Goku as the tough guy. Everyone thought he might beat Cell. If resting Goku is in par with the Cell who fought USSJ2 Trunks so 50% MSSJ Goku is stronger IMO
In your opinion, sure. I have no problem with that opinion. All I'm saying is that there's no technical limit on how strong Grade III Trunks could be, since his strength was entirely useless. He could have been as strong as Vegetto for all we know--doesn't mean anything if you can't touch your opponent.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Undertaker » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:34 am

Bussani wrote:
Undertaker wrote:By that logic Cell Games Vegeta is around USSJ2 Trunks.
Why's that? Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing--I just don't see how we got to that conclusion.
Vegeta considered 50% MSSJ Goku as the tough guy. Everyone thought he might beat Cell. If resting Goku is in par with the Cell who fought USSJ2 Trunks so 50% MSSJ Goku is stronger IMO
In your opinion, sure. I have no problem with that opinion. All I'm saying is that there's no technical limit on how strong Grade III Trunks could be, since his strength was entirely useless. He could have been as strong as Vegetto for all we know--doesn't mean anything if you can't touch your opponent.
They were amazed at Goku's ki when he powered up despite Piccolo feeling USSJ2 Trunks and if USSJ2 Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku and so is Vegeta so they should be around the same level and Vegeta is surely ahead of USSJ2 Trunks in the Cell Games

USSJ2 Trunks is stated to be stronger than Initial Perfect Cell who equals resting Goku. Goku then makes a massive power up to 50%. The difference between USSJ2 Trunks to Cell could not be that massive

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Vertical » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:18 am

Undertaker wrote:USSJ2 Trunks is stated to be stronger than Initial Perfect Cell who equals resting Goku.
Why is it that Goku gets a "Resting" state but Cell doesn't? Any justification you use for Goku having one supports Cell having one also.

[Resting/Warmup] Goku ~ [Resting/Warmup] Cell

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Undertaker » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:06 pm

Vertical wrote:
Undertaker wrote:USSJ2 Trunks is stated to be stronger than Initial Perfect Cell who equals resting Goku.
Why is it that Goku gets a "Resting" state but Cell doesn't? Any justification you use for Goku having one supports Cell having one also.

[Resting/Warmup] Goku ~ [Resting/Warmup] Cell
It's resting Goku because he rests at that form

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bando » Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:04 pm

Draken wrote:How would they know he's only a SSJ though? They weren't physically there watching, they only sensed his power.
Vegeta guessed correctly and explained it to everyone.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
[ ]
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

And then I think Trunks said something like "then they'll perform an even greater transformation right?" and Vegeta called him an idiot. :(

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bussani » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:03 pm

Undertaker wrote:They were amazed at Goku's ki when he powered up despite Piccolo feeling USSJ2 Trunks and if USSJ2 Trunks > 50% MSSJ Goku and so is Vegeta so they should be around the same level and Vegeta is surely ahead of USSJ2 Trunks in the Cell Games

USSJ2 Trunks is stated to be stronger than Initial Perfect Cell who equals resting Goku. Goku then makes a massive power up to 50%. The difference between USSJ2 Trunks to Cell could not be that massive
You don't need to keep trying to explain your opinion to me. I get it. I can see why you've come to your conclusion. But what I was looking for were facts that prevent Trunks from having more raw power--facts, not opinions like "it can't be that massive" or "Vegeta is surely ahead of X". I don't believe there are any, and as it seems like you're not going to provide any, I'm going to have to stop replying (as politely as possible) before we fill up the thread with a never ending back and forth.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:06 pm

This became a telling people off thread a while ago.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Bussani » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:08 pm

I'm not trying to tell anyone off, personally. I just don't want to waste anyone's time saying the same things back and forth when we don't have to.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:33 pm

Bussani wrote:I'm not trying to tell anyone off, personally. I just don't want to waste anyone's time saying the same things back and forth when we don't have to.
He's been using the same explanation for over a dozen separate threads for the last year or so. I agree with you; while there's nothing wrong with his theory, that's all it is: a theory. If Undertaker would just accept that, I feel like he'd have a lot more success here.
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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Vertical » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:03 am

Undertaker wrote:
Vertical wrote:
Undertaker wrote:USSJ2 Trunks is stated to be stronger than Initial Perfect Cell who equals resting Goku.
Why is it that Goku gets a "Resting" state but Cell doesn't? Any justification you use for Goku having one supports Cell having one also.

[Resting/Warmup] Goku ~ [Resting/Warmup] Cell
It's resting Goku because he rests at that form
I do not believe you interpreted my query as I would have liked. I'll try another way...

Is there any reason why I could not use the following chain?

[Initial] Perfect Cell ~ [50%] Goku > [Resting/Warmup] Cell ~ [Resting/Warmup] Goku

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by hleV » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:43 am

If Goku's resting state was strong enough to match initial Perfect Cell, it would've been noted right when he went our of ROSAT. Yet Vegeta didn't even think that Goku was stronger than him.

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Re: SSJG3 Trunks and FPSSJ Goku(Half)

Post by Mjb1985 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:49 am

I think it's safe to say that Goku's warm up power is the maximum power he can access without having to power up.

So I would go with something like this


50% Goku > Buff Cell > Buff Trunks > Initial Cell ~ Initial Ssj Goku

50% Goku is strong enough to fool the cast that they think it could possibly be Goku's full power.

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