Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Vertical » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:56 am

Regarding "Restoration Power":
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito also uses it, and he is never seen to be able to perform magic.
This may be a bit late in the conversation but... doesn't his ability to create/alter Gohan's clothing count as magic?

OT: My personal interpretations lead me to believe that Ultimate Gohan could not perform the Kaioken technique.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:17 am

Vertical wrote:Regarding "Restoration Power":
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito also uses it, and he is never seen to be able to perform magic.
This may be a bit late in the conversation but... doesn't his ability to create/alter Gohan's clothing count as magic?

OT: My personal interpretations lead me to believe that Ultimate Gohan could not perform the Kaioken technique.
Ah, good catch. I had forgotten about that.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:52 pm

hleV, your entire argument rests on the belief that something cannot be created from nothing. Which is fine, but you have no way of backing it up. Saying that "ki cannot be created from nothing because things cannot be created from nothing" is not an argument. You can't use the premise of your argument to support itself; you have to bring in outside evidence. So, you say magic can create things from nothing. Yet we see abilities that are never noted or suggested as being magic that create something from nothing, but your reply is that they "have to be magic since they create things from nothing." Again, using your premise as the only support for your argument.
Ki is composed of unquantifiable elements. How do you put a limit on bravery? What is the maximum amount of True Mind you can have?

Some more examples of creating something from nothing without magic.
Tien's technique where he grows extra arms. Stated to be possible due "to the abilities he was born with," never mentioning magic.
Tien's multiform technique.
Saiyan's becoming Oozarus. The power may come from their hidden potential, but where does the extra mass and weight come from?
Same with Piccolo's giant form. Said to be an ability of his race, and only Dragon Clan Namekians are stated to be able to use magic.
Same with Freeza. When he transforms, he gets much larger. Where does this mass come from?
Nail's body disappeared when he fused with Piccolo. What happened to it? Piccolo didn't look any different. (Not quite what your arguing, but in real life, matter and energy are said to not be able to be created or destroyed.) And warrior Namekians are capable of fusion, despite only Dragon Clan Namekians being able to use magic, so Namekian fusion is biological, not magical.
Ginyu trading bodies. Ginyu becomes a frog, and we know that Ginyu retains his intelligence upon changing bodies, yet a frog's brain is much smaller and less developed than a human's.
Senzu beans being able to restore people. (I could be wrong on this one, since these may be considered magic. Not sure if they are directly referred to as such though.)
Oolong and Puar can shapeshift, which is capable of increasing their size and mass. Never stated or implied to be magical.
Super Saiyan 3 makes the characters' hair extend. Where does the extra hair come from?
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:56 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:hleV, your entire argument rests on the belief that something cannot be created from nothing. Which is fine, but you have no way of backing it up.
I'm not stating anything as facts. I'm saying that unless it's magic (or 'abilities', as according to you they're different things), things don't come out of nowhere. Like I already told, that's the way I see logic. Feel free to explain how YOU see logic (I'm not saying that you have to use any logic for DB, though).
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Saying that "ki cannot be created from nothing because things cannot be created from nothing" is not an argument.
But that's the way I see logic. In real world, things cannot be created out of nothing. Why would one assume that in DB they can be? Again, when magic/abilities ain't involved.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:You can't use the premise of your argument to support itself; you have to bring in outside evidence. So, you say magic can create things from nothing. Yet we see abilities that are never noted or suggested as being magic that create something from nothing, but your reply is that they "have to be magic since they create things from nothing." Again, using your premise as the only support for your argument.
I say it's somewhat magical. In real world, there's no magic and there are no 'abilities' neither, so it all should look like sort of magic to us, but in-universally, they're not necessarily magic of the same type and name/description. Sure, ki isn't exactly a real world thing neither, but we have enough information about ki to not classify it as an in-universe magic (as it's a part of every living being in DB and nothing points to it being able to create things out of nowhere).
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Ki is composed of unquantifiable elements. How do you put a limit on bravery? What is the maximum amount of True Mind you can have?
If ki can be measured, what's wrong with it having a limit? How does bravery increase through training, but not through emotions? See? I can give irrelevant questions as well.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Some more examples of creating something from nothing without magic.
Tenshinhan's technique where he grows extra arms. Stated to be possible due "to the abilities he was born with," never mentioning magic.
An ability. I'm fine with that.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Tenshinhan's multiform technique.
It's not like the additional bodies come from nowhere. They come from ki. Unless it's under a category of 'ability'?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Saiyan's becoming Oozarus. The power may come from their hidden potential, but where does the extra mass and weight come from?
Transformation is an ability.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Same with Piccolo's giant form. Said to be an ability of his race, and only Dragon Clan Namekians are stated to be able to use magic.
Ability? Cool.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Same with Freeza. When he transforms, he gets much larger. Where does this mass come from?
Transformation is an ability.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Nail's body disappeared when he fused with Piccolo. What happened to it? Piccolo didn't look any different. (Not quite what your arguing, but in real life, matter and energy are said to not be able to be created or destroyed.)
Huge things can burn down to just ashes. I don't see a problem with Nail's body just fading away/disintegrating into something that naked eye cannot see.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:And warrior Namekians are capable of fusion, despite only Dragon Clan Namekians being able to use magic, so Namekian fusion is biological, not magical.
Ability.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Ginyu trading bodies. Ginyu becomes a frog, and we know that Ginyu retains his intelligence upon changing bodies, yet a frog's brain is much smaller and less developed than a human's.
No idea about Ginyu's brain in a frog's body. I don't think it can be explained. A plothole, perhaps. Don't think Toriyama thought this through.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Senzu beans being able to restore people. (I could be wrong on this one, since these may be considered magic. Not sure if they are directly referred to as such though.)
Oolong and Puar can shapeshift, which is capable of increasing their size and mass. Never stated or implied to be magical.
Super Saiyan 3 makes the characters' hair extend. Where does the extra hair come from?
Abilities/transformations. Nothing wrong with that.

Even if I didn't answer to anything, how does any of this help you prove your point about KK being anyhow magical? Or are we over with that?

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:10 pm

hleV wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:hleV, your entire argument rests on the belief that something cannot be created from nothing. Which is fine, but you have no way of backing it up.
I'm not stating anything as facts. I'm saying that unless it's magic (or 'abilities', as according to you they're different things), things don't come out of nowhere. Like I already told, that's the way I see logic. Feel free to explain how YOU see logic (I'm not saying that you have to use any logic for DB, though).
Not "according to me." The Daizenshuu has categories for abilities and magic. If they were the same, then why have separate categories?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Saying that "ki cannot be created from nothing because things cannot be created from nothing" is not an argument.
But that's the way I see logic. In real world, things cannot be created out of nothing. Why would one assume that in DB they can be? Again, when magic/abilities ain't involved.
I have given numerous examples as to why they can.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:You can't use the premise of your argument to support itself; you have to bring in outside evidence. So, you say magic can create things from nothing. Yet we see abilities that are never noted or suggested as being magic that create something from nothing, but your reply is that they "have to be magic since they create things from nothing." Again, using your premise as the only support for your argument.
I say it's somewhat magical. In real world, there's no magic and there are no 'abilities' neither, so it's all should look like sort of magic to us, but in-universally, they're not necessarily magic of the same type and name/description. Sure, ki isn't exactly a real world thing neither, but we have enough information about ki to not classify it as an in-universe magic (as it's a part of every living being in DB).
So, you're claiming that anything that goes against your premise is magic? Even when nothing supports it? That doesn't really sound like a valid debating tactic to me.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Ki is composed of unquantifiable elements. How do you put a limit on bravery? What is the maximum amount of True Mind you can have?
If ki can be measured, what's wrong with it having a limit? How does bravery increase through training, but not through emotions? See? I can give irrelevant questions as well.
Because ki is composed of bravery, true mind, etc. You can measure ki, which is the end product, but how do you measure its components? What's to stop Ultimate Gohan from getting braver or smarter or have greater clarity?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Some more examples of creating something from nothing without magic.
Tenshinhan's technique where he grows extra arms. Stated to be possible due "to the abilities he was born with," never mentioning magic.
An ability. I'm fine with that.
It's an example of having something from nothing without using magic. It violates your premise.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Tenshinhan's multiform technique.
It's not like the additional bodies come from nowhere. They come from ki.
Where does the mass come from? The intelligence? Tien didn't become 4x dumber when he split.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Saiyan's becoming Oozarus. The power may come from their hidden potential, but where does the extra mass and weight come from?
Transformation is an ability.
Yep. And it's an example of producing something from nothing. Unless you think that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta had a couple tons of weight hanging around somewhere.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Same with Piccolo's giant form. Said to be an ability of his race, and only Dragon Clan Namekians are stated to be able to use magic.
Ability? Cool.
Same as above.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Same with Freeza. When he transforms, he gets much larger. Where does this mass come from?
Transformation is an ability.
Same. Why is transformation allowed to produce something from nothing when if ki manipulation can't?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Nail's body disappeared when he fused with Piccolo. What happened to it? Piccolo didn't look any different. (Not quite what your arguing, but in real life, matter and energy are said to not be able to be created or destroyed.)
Huge things can burn down to just ashes. I don't see a problem with Nail's body just fading away/disintegrating into something that naked eye cannot see.
Fair enough.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:And warrior Namekians are capable of fusion, despite only Dragon Clan Namekians being able to use magic, so Namekian fusion is biological, not magical.
Ability.
One that isn't magic.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Ginyu trading bodies. Ginyu becomes a frog, and we know that Ginyu retains his intelligence upon changing bodies, yet a frog's brain is much smaller and less developed than a human's.
No idea about Ginyu's brain in a frog's body. I don't think it can be explained. A plothole, perhaps. Don't think Toriyama thought this through.
Do you think Toryama put much thought into any of this? That's not an answer.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Senzu beans being able to restore people. (I could be wrong on this one, since these may be considered magic. Not sure if they are directly referred to as such though.)
Oolong and Puar can shapeshift, which is capable of increasing their size and mass. Never stated or implied to be magical.
Super Saiyan 3 makes the characters' hair extend. Where does the extra hair come from?
Abilities/transformations. Nothing wrong with that.
It is non magical means producing something out of nothing. All of which violates the premise of your argument. Now you're just saying that your premise is only applied when you want it to be? Going by the argument you've been giving me, none of these should be possible.
Even if I didn't answer to anything, how does any of this help you prove your point about KK being anyhow magical?
[/quote]
Kaio-Ken being magical isn't the point. The point was that there was an equal amount of evidence stating that Dende's healing was magical, which you assume, yet you refuse to accept that Kaio-Ken might be.

So, if all of these are possible, and not magic, then why can't Kaio-Ken create ki out of nothing? Or, as Bussani said, amplify their already present power?
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:45 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Not "according to me."
That's why I ask what's logic according to YOU.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:The Daizenshuu has categories for abilities and magic. If they were the same, then why have separate categories?
They don't have to be the same. Like I said, magic and ability seem to be treated as different things in DB. I have no problem with that.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
But that's the way I see logic. In real world, things cannot be created out of nothing. Why would one assume that in DB they can be? Again, when magic/abilities ain't involved.
I have given numerous examples as to why they can.
Are any of those examples (I have no idea what examples are you talking about, BTW) anyhow suggested, or are they just random theories? My logic is that if something in DB doesn't contradict real world logic, real world logic applies to that certain something.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:So, you're claiming that anything that goes against your premise is magic? Even when nothing supports it? That doesn't really sound like a valid debating tactic to me.
Magic or ability. I don't care. They both do uncommon things, even by DB standarts.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Because ki is composed of bravery, true mind, etc. You can measure ki, which is the end product, but how do you measure its components?
If ki, which can be measured, depends on those components, then components can be measured as well. Why the hell do you ask me how are they measured? How would I know that? What does that have to do with anything? We know that ki is a power measurement unit, and that simply being brave or whatever doesn't grant you more ki. Nothing suggests (that cannot easily be explained logically) that ki alone can be used to create stuff, if that's where you're getting. So I don't assume it can.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:What's to stop Ultimate Gohan from getting braver or smarter or have greater clarity?
Nothing, but KK won't do that for him. We won't argue that hidden power and its limit (not permanent, though) exist, right? Yet your questions can be applied to those as well.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It's an example of having something from nothing without using magic. It violates your premise.
Like I said, I'm fine with either magic or ability. (They both seem like magic of different sorts to me, but it's not important).
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
It's not like the additional bodies come from nowhere. They come from ki.
Where does the mass come from? The intelligence? Tenshinhan didn't become 4x dumber when he split.
I'm tired already. You're asking random questions just to prove that things can be created out of nothing without the use of magic/ability. There's no end to this. In fact, I don't have to explain anything to you, as logical explanation always exists. I'm really tired of thinking up examples of that. I've countered enough of your arguments. If you're not satisfied, so be it. Just don't claim that my logic is wrong. I'm not claiming it's 100% right, but the logic itself is fine to be considered.

Nothing suggests KK is anyhow magical. It's under a category of ki manipulation. Not sorcery/ability. Nothing suggests that ki can create things out of nowhere (unlike sorcery/ability). I'm done here.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Draken » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:57 pm

So now you're saying that real world logic works again. Contradictory much? "something cannot be created from nothing, as this is impossible in the real world." Yet I showed you many times that DB defies real world logic, such as accelerating to faster than light, magic, teleportation, etc etc. Back then you said DB logic doesn't apply to real world logic.

Well then think of it this way. In DB logic, something CAN be created out of nothing.

Stop going back and forth between arguments. First you say there is no real world logic in DB. Then when Kamicollo brought up some points you go back to real world logic.

Nothing suggests Dende's healing, or Piccolo's clothes beam, or Kibito's healing, are magical, yet you are quick to assume they are and say those are moot points. Stubborn much? Piccolo is a warrior clan Namekian, he isn't known to use magic, unlike the dragon clan. You seem to only accept things when they fit your own viewpoint. When we brought in an opposing viewpoint, you're like "meh ability itsok".

And now you're given evidence you can't seem to solidly explain away and leave... lol.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:09 pm

hleV wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Not "according to me."
That's why I ask what's logic according to YOU.
In a world where people can fly around shooting lasers out of their mouths, turn into giant monkeys, bug-robots suck up towns, infinite energy exists, and get turned into a talking, fighting jawbreaker, logic can be whatever the creator or reader wants it to be.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:The Daizenshuu has categories for abilities and magic. If they were the same, then why have separate categories?
They don't have to be the same. Like I said, magic and ability seem to be treated as different things in DB. I have no problem with that.
So, you are fine with non-magical processes creating stuff from nothing, yet Kaio-Ken absolutely cannot do this?
Are any of those examples (I have no idea what examples are you talking about, BTW) anyhow suggested, or are they just random theories? My logic is that if something in DB doesn't contradict real world logic, real world logic applies to that certain something.
I don't see how you wouldn't know what examples I'm referring to since you responded to them in your post. A bunch of non-magical examples of characters creating something from nothing.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:So, you're claiming that anything that goes against your premise is magic? Even when nothing supports it? That doesn't really sound like a valid debating tactic to me.
Magic or ability. I don't care. They both do uncommon things, even by DB standarts.
And? Just because it's uncommon means that Kaio-Ken can't do it?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Because ki is composed of bravery, true mind, etc. You can measure ki, which is the end product, but how do you measure its components?
If ki, which can be measured, depends on those components, then components can be measured as well. Why the hell do you ask me how are they measured? How would I know that? What does that have to do with anything? We know that ki is a power measurement unit, and that simply being brave or whatever doesn't grant you more ki. Nothing suggests (that cannot easily be explained logically) that ki alone can be used to create stuff, if that's where you're getting. So I don't assume it can.
I'm wondering how one measures state of mind. Logically, can you quantify how much more bravery or state of mind you have than someone else?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:What's to stop Ultimate Gohan from getting braver or smarter or have greater clarity?
Nothing, but KK won't do that for him. We won't argue that hidden power and its limit (not permanent, though) exist, right? Yet your questions can be applied to those as well.
Why won't Kaio-Ken do that for him. You've already accepted that non-magical abilities are capable of creating something out of nothing, why can't Kaio-Ken?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It's an example of having something from nothing without using magic. It violates your premise.
Like I said, I'm fine with either magic or ability. (They both seem like magic of different sorts to me, but it's not important).
Don't forget "special." You said that fusion was a sort of magic. So, that's three categories you've accepted. So, why can't Kaio-Ken?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
It's not like the additional bodies come from nowhere. They come from ki.
Where does the mass come from? The intelligence? Tenshinhan didn't become 4x dumber when he split.
I'm tired already. You're asking random questions just to prove that things can be created out of nothing without the use of magic/ability. There's no end to this. In fact, I don't have to explain anything to you, as logical explanation always exists. I'm really tired of thinking up examples of that. I've countered enough of your arguments. If you're not satisfied, so be it. Just don't claim that my logic is wrong. I'm not claiming it's 100% right, but the logic itself is fine to be considered.

Nothing suggests KK is anyhow magical. It's under a category of ki manipulation. Not sorcery/ability. Nothing suggests that ki can create things out of nowhere (unlike sorcery/ability). I'm done here.
If something can create nothing without using magic, then it violates your argument, and I've given multiple examples of this. You haven't countered anything; anytime I introduce another example, you expand your premise to include it. So, why can't Kaio-Ken create something out of nothing?
Your premise was an absolute, "something cannot be created out of nothing without magic." There are only two options, you are either right or wrong. I have introduced more than enough evidence to show that you are wrong.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:35 pm

Kaio-Ken I don't think is magic. But the technique amplifies power seems magical. I just take it as a weird Ki technique like Super Ghost Kamikaze, Fusion, 4 arms, multi-form, etc. Though I don't believe Kaio-Ken has anything to do with hidden power.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:43 pm

Yeah I'm pretty sure Ultimate Gohan Kaio-can use the Kaioken.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:51 am

@Draken, either you can't read or... well, I won't go there. I said that by my logic, real world logic applies when DB doesn't contradict it.

@Kamicollo9, sorcery and ability, etc. have been shown to make things out of nothing. That's why I have no problem with them. Ki hasn't, that's why I have a problem with your explanation that ki makes ki out of nothing, when nothing even remotely suggests that.
I'm genuinely surprised that you still cling to the idea that according to me, it has to be MAGIC to create things out of nowhere, when I told long ago that I'm only against those things creating anything out of nowhere which are never implied to be able to do so (so sorcery/ability/fusion, etc. are fine. Ki? Not so much). Sorcery/ability/fusion, etc. look like magic TO ME, but they're separate things in DB.
KK can't produce more ki than one has because it's a ki technique and a ki technique only. Ki techniques don't ever create things out of nowhere, so there's no reason whatsoever to think KK can.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Draken » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:53 am

@hleV either you can't read your own posts or... You know what I won't go there. You said, and I quote,
What makes you think I'm applying real world logic to DB? I'm applying logic in
general. And the logic is that unless it's magic, nothing comes out of nowhere.
Unless I missed something else in the fuckfest of new posts since school, you never said unless it's been contradicted.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:12 am

It should've been obvious that since I have no problem with magic/abilities/etc. in DB, I don't apply real world logic to the whole Dragon World. It that would be outright ridiculous if I did. That's why I just assume that you either don't read or can't read, or only focus on just one point rather than the whole context.

It's not like Toriyama created a fictional world and just made it look somewhat similar to our world. He took our world and altered it.
Last edited by hleV on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:14 am

Holy Hell, knock it off. I shouldn't have to keep coming in and reminding the same people over and over to post politely in the "In-Universe" section!

Not afraid to wield the ban-hammer if necessary. Lead by example. If you're posting things like, "Well, I guess you just can't read!" you're completely off-base here.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Draken » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:38 am

So if you don't apply real world logic to the whole DB world, then I'm genuinely amazed you still find it so hard to believe kaioken can bring a user past his/her limits. I mean Gohan is already past his maximum potential...

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:50 am

I don't find it so hard to believe KK can. It's DB, anything can go. What I'm saying is that there's no reason whatsoever to think it does, as ki techniques simply don't do that.

The problem with this long discussion is that I was asked to explain my logic, while I should've been the one asking why would anyone assume that KK, which isn't stated to be anything more than a ki manipulation technique, can go above the 400x limit, when there's nothing suggesting that it's possible with ki to begin with. Power is ki. Hidden power is ki normally inaccessible. Where would additional power come from? It's not magic or a special ability, it's ki, which everybody in DB possesses. KK not being used in SS form suggests that it's either impossible or not worth it for whatever reason. That should apply to "Ultimate" Gohan as well, unless one for whatever reason would think that it has to do with the form itself and not the power which the form already has access to.
So again, I'm not saying it's impossible and I'm not trying to prove my logic is 100% valid. I'm just saying that according to my logic, if nothing suggests something, there's no reason to believe in that something, but not necessarily that that something can't be true.

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Saiga
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Saiga » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:12 am

If Gohan could learn it, than I don't see any reason why he couldn't use it.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Draken » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:42 am

Cause Goku said fuck it I'm not teaching anyone.

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