Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Draken » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:45 am

Then damn Gohan must have reached his ki limit back on Namek and Goku back when he drank the Super God Water.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by IIMaxII » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:57 am

Now that you mention it, I kind of wish all the human Z fighters and Gohan knew Kaioken.....would be pretty cool to see them more useful in the series.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:34 am

Draken wrote:Then damn Gohan must have reached his ki limit back on Namek and Goku back when he drank the Super God Water.
Except that, like I said, limits can increase through training. Growing up, even.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:42 am

hleV wrote:
Draken wrote:Then damn Gohan must have reached his ki limit back on Namek and Goku back when he drank the Super God Water.
Except that, like I said, limits can increase through training. Growing up, even.
Then what is wrong with a technique that temporarily forces one past their limits?
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Bando » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:28 pm

hleV wrote:No. Kaio-ken is not a ritual which magically grants power, it's a ki technique which allows the user to use more of his hidden power. It draws the power from the same "place" Super Saiyan does, and "Ultimate" Gohan already has all that power unlocked.
I've been saying this for years. :o

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:21 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Then what is wrong with a technique that temporarily forces one past their limits?
You don't simply go and surpass your maximum possible power. Without the power of magic/ritual/fusion/whatever, that is. You need to train to increase that maximum possible power, and then you're able to tap into it (with whatever method you have).
Like I said, if KK and SS didn't grant power for the user the same way, that would mean that SS and KK don't overlap each other and are completely compatible. KK would've been used on top of SS.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:29 pm

hleV wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Then what is wrong with a technique that temporarily forces one past their limits?
You don't simply go and surpass your maximum possible power. Without the power of magic/ritual/fusion/whatever, that is. You need to train to increase that maximum possible power, and then you're able to tap into it (with whatever method you have).
Like I said, if KK and SS didn't grant power for the user the same way, that would mean that SS and KK don't overlap each other and are completely compatible. KK would've been used on top of SS.
Unless it is too dangerous. Which is what I said in my very first post. As I see it, Kaio-Ken amplifies someone beyond their limits, but it is a forced powerup, which is what causes the technique to harm it's user. That, on top of the strain caused by SSJ, would result in a dead Goku.
The anime has Goku doing Kaio-Ken with SSJ just fine, with a dead body. And that doesn't contradict anything in the manga.
And why can't the technique surpass one's limits? It was developed by Kaio, who was a god, just like it was a god who unlocked Gohan's potential.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:47 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote: Unless it is too dangerous. Which is what I said in my very first post. As I see it, Kaio-Ken amplifies someone beyond their limits, but it is a forced powerup, which is what causes the technique to harm it's user. That, on top of the strain caused by SSJ, would result in a dead Goku.
Goku went so far as to use 20xKK. SS doesn't even do damage. Are you seriously saying that KKx2 wouldn't be worth trying as a SS? Because unless you have something better, I can't agree with that.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:The anime has Goku doing Kaio-Ken with SSJ just fine, with a dead body. And that doesn't contradict anything in the manga.
Do you actually consider this an argument?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:And why can't the technique surpass one's limits? It was developed by Kaio, who was a god, just like it was a god who unlocked Gohan's potential.
KK belongs to a category of ki manipulation. You manipulate the ki you have. Not the ki you don't have. If you fail to see this, then I don't see the reason to continue this argument. Limits so far have only been surpassed through training/magic/fusion/rituals, not a ki technique.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:56 pm

hleV wrote: If you fail to see this, then I don't see the reason to continue this argument.
Argument has a negative connotation that I would not apply to this discussion, unless you feel that way. I will say, however, that you don't seem very interested in or open to views outside your own. As far as the anime situation goes, nothing in the manga, Daizenshuu, or any other official publication, or any statement by Toryama indicates that Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan are mutually exclusive, so the Super Kaio-Ken in the anime contradicts nothing, therefore, I see nothing wrong with including it.
If someone is able to increase their limits by training, then why couldn't they by using a ki technique? You haven't explained to me why it can't happen.
And I'll also restate what I said earlier: every other time in the series, when a character is drawing on their hidden potential, it is explicitly mentioned. Why would Kaio-Ken be an exception? Kaio-Ken is referred to as being an amplification of one's ki, not a technique that draws upon one's hidden potential.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Bando » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:36 pm

It sort of contradicts the plot and all suspense.

Imagine if Goku really could have used the Kaio-ken in conjunction with Super Saiyan in the manga? It'd take away all the tension and atmosphere because he'd be too damn stupid for not using it.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:47 pm

Bando wrote:It sort of contradicts the plot and all suspense.

Imagine if Goku really could have used the Kaio-ken in conjunction with Super Saiyan in the manga? It'd take away all the tension and atmosphere because he'd be too damn stupid for not using it.
Plot induced stupidity isn't a contradiction. Kaio could have taught Kaio-Ken to Piccolo and the Earthlings, but he didn't. If Goku had gone straight to Freeza after arriving on Namek, and Kaio-Ken x10'd him, he could have ended the Namek Arc in a couple of minutes. Characters stand around while their enemies transform and get stronger, and do nothing. Kaioshin came up with this big convoluted plan to stop Babidi, that could have been circumvented by simply doing what Vegeta said, and blowing Babidi's ship up. Goku could have prevented the entire Buu Arc, if he had just knocked out Vegeta, and he could have done it again when he fought Fat Buu.
Just because a character doesn't do something in the manga, doesn't mean they can't.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Bando » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:52 pm

What makes you think the Earthlings could have learned it or even wanted to? Why would they risk destroying their bodies when Goku is obviously far stronger than all of them put together?

Your examples all have explanations:

-Goku didn't obliterate Freeza because he underestimated him and had Saiyan instinct leading him on. Who honestly could have expected Freeza to be hiding such a large amount of his power?
-Kaioshin was scared of waking up Boo.
-Goku was afraid he'd waste the Super Saiyan 3 transformation on Vegeta and he didn't want to insult his pride.

What can explain Goku only using 5% of his power through the series? Nothing.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by hleV » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:54 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:you don't seem very interested in or open to views outside your own.
I'm interested in views that are based on logic. Yours isn't.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:As far as the anime situation goes, nothing in the manga, Daizenshuu, or any other official publication, or any statement by Toryama indicates that Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan are mutually exclusive, so the Super Kaio-Ken in the anime contradicts nothing, therefore, I see nothing wrong with including it.
So unless anime outright contradicts the manga, it's accepted? Are you really so desperate that you bring anime to this discussion? That's even more of a reason to just stop right here.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If someone is able to increase their limits by training, then why couldn't they by using a ki technique? You haven't explained to me why it can't happen.
By training, you not only increase your strength, but your hidden power as well (again, SS3 draws the hidden powers to their limits and that's 400x base), which you can tap into. KK amplifies power, not the hidden powers. I go with logic, and logic doesn't allow me to think that KK disregards one's hidden powers and does its own thing -- grants power out of nowhere.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:And I'll also restate what I said earlier: every other time in the series, when a character is drawing on their hidden potential, it is explicitly mentioned. Why would Kaio-Ken be an exception? Kaio-Ken is referred to as being an amplification of one's ki, not a technique that draws upon one's hidden potential.
It's not stated in the series that SS3 draws hidden powers to their limit. It's stated in a guidebook. Are we to assume that SS/SS2 doesn't draw some of the hidden powers only because it isn't stated so?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Plot induced stupidity isn't a contradiction.
We're in a in-universe discussion, so it is a contradiction.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kaio could have taught Kaio-Ken to Piccolo and the Earthlings, but he didn't.
Firstly, there was no reason for Kaio to teach anyone KK. Secondly, I highly doubt that KK can be taught in a span of few days.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If Goku had gone straight to Freeza after arriving on Namek, and Kaio-Ken x10'd him, he could have ended the Namek Arc in a couple of minutes. Characters stand around while their enemies transform and get stronger, and do nothing.
Goku was busy rescuing his friends and then Ginyu switching bodies with him.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kaioshin came up with this big convoluted plan to stop Babidi, that could have been circumvented by simply doing what Vegeta said, and blowing Babidi's ship up.
Kaioshin didn't know the true extents of the Saiyans' power and was afraid that if they wake Boo up, they'll lose.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Goku could have prevented the entire Buu Arc, if he had just knocked out Vegeta, and he could have done it again when he fought Fat Buu.
Goku explained why he did that. That's not plot-induced stupidity. It's his character.

All in all, I go with logic, you don't. I can't say one option is right or wrong, it's just a matter of preference and the way one interprets the series. It's DB, not everything (hardly anything) makes sense, but I'm not gonna disregard pure logic because of that.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:57 pm

Bando wrote:It sort of contradicts the plot and all suspense.

Imagine if Goku really could have used the Kaio-ken in conjunction with Super Saiyan in the manga? It'd take away all the tension and atmosphere because he'd be too damn stupid for not using it.
I'd say it's safe to assume the Super Kaioken would destroy his body thus he can only use it in the afterlife. It's a simple solution really.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:08 pm

hleV wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:you don't seem very interested in or open to views outside your own.
I'm interested in views that are based on logic. Yours isn't.
Your trying to apply logic to a fictional universe. Logically, infinite energy wouldn't exist, but it does in the manga. Logically, a pink bubblegum monster capable of transforming people into candy couldn't exist either. Toryama does what he wants, and fictional universes aren't strictly bound to real life universal laws.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:As far as the anime situation goes, nothing in the manga, Daizenshuu, or any other official publication, or any statement by Toryama indicates that Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan are mutually exclusive, so the Super Kaio-Ken in the anime contradicts nothing, therefore, I see nothing wrong with including it.
So unless anime outright contradicts the manga, it's accepted? Are you really so desperate that you bring anime to this discussion? That's even more of a reason to just stop right here.
What's wrong with accepting the anime when it doesn't contradict the manga? Dragonball is a fictional universe, and the anime is an extension of that universe. So saying "no, because it's from the anime" is not a valid argument.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If someone is able to increase their limits by training, then why couldn't they by using a ki technique? You haven't explained to me why it can't happen.
By training, you not only increase your strength, but your hidden power as well (again, SS3 draws the hidden powers to their limits and that's 400x base), which you can tap into. KK amplifies power, not the hidden powers. I go with logic, and logic doesn't allow me to think that KK disregards one's hidden powers and does its own thing -- grants power out of nowhere.[/quote]
And I think that Kaio-Ken shows us what happens when you increase your strength beyond your limits without the benefit of training toughening your body up.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:And I'll also restate what I said earlier: every other time in the series, when a character is drawing on their hidden potential, it is explicitly mentioned. Why would Kaio-Ken be an exception? Kaio-Ken is referred to as being an amplification of one's ki, not a technique that draws upon one's hidden potential.
It's not stated in the series that SS3 draws hidden powers to their limit. It's stated in a guidebook. Are we to assume that SS/SS2 doesn't draw some of the hidden powers only because it isn't stated so?[/quote]
That's true enough.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Plot induced stupidity isn't a contradiction.
We're in a in-universe discussion, so it is a contradiction.[/quote]
What does that even mean?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kaio could have taught Kaio-Ken to Piccolo and the Earthlings, but he didn't.
Firstly, there was no reason for Kaio to teach anyone KK. Secondly, I highly doubt that KK can be taught in a span of few days.[/quote]
For Piccolo and Yamcha. Tien and Chiaotzu were there for a year.[/quote]
Kamiccolo9 wrote:If Goku had gone straight to Freeza after arriving on Namek, and Kaio-Ken x10'd him, he could have ended the Namek Arc in a couple of minutes. Characters stand around while their enemies transform and get stronger, and do nothing.
Goku was busy rescuing his friends and then Ginyu switching bodies with him.[/quote]
Goku could have wasted Ginyu in seconds if he had tried. Instead he decided to play around.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kaioshin came up with this big convoluted plan to stop Babidi, that could have been circumvented by simply doing what Vegeta said, and blowing Babidi's ship up.
Kaioshin didn't know the true extents of the Saiyans' power and was afraid that if they wake Boo up, they'll lose.[/quote]
Spopovitch and Yamu would have returned to Babidi eventually anyway. Why allow them to take Gohan's ki in the first place?[/quote]
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Goku could have prevented the entire Buu Arc, if he had just knocked out Vegeta, and he could have done it again when he fought Fat Buu.
Goku explained why he did that. That's not plot-induced stupidity. It's his character.[/quote]
Doesn't make him any less stupid.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Bando » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:17 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'd say it's safe to assume the Super Kaioken would destroy his body thus he can only use it in the afterlife. It's a simple solution really.
I disagree because Goku learned to lower the stress of Super Saiyan. So he should have at least managed some degrees of Kaio-ken during the Cell Arc.

Besides higher power level does not necessarily mean Kaio-ken will get more unwieldy. Goku had a PL of 8000 and could raise KK to x4. But then he zipped up to a PL of 90,000 and 3,000,000 and still managed to pull off a x10 comfortably.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:21 pm

Bando wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'd say it's safe to assume the Super Kaioken would destroy his body thus he can only use it in the afterlife. It's a simple solution really.
I disagree because Goku learned to lower the stress of Super Saiyan. So he should have at least managed some degrees of Kaio-ken during the Cell Arc.
It didn't negate all the stress though. If so, he could stay in it forever. The Old Kaioshin mentions this when telling Goku about the Potara fusion in the Buu Arc. And any stress in SSJ would be accentuated by the Kaio-Ken, which could lead to catastrophic consequences for the user. For all we know, Goku may have attempted Super Kaio-Ken during the 3 years spent training for the Androids, and he may have attempted it after mastering the SSJ state in the ROSAT, and learned that it was too dangerous to use in a combat situation.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Bando » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:17 pm

I never said it eliminated the stress completely, but the fact remains they greatly reduced it to the point they barely noticed it anymore. I don't see why Kaio-ken couldn't have been used there, unless both are really incompatible.

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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:28 pm

Bando wrote:I never said it eliminated the stress completely, but the fact remains they greatly reduced it to the point they barely noticed it anymore. I don't see why Kaio-ken couldn't have been used there, unless both are really incompatible.
For the same reason that Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura, Toryama didn't want him to.
In-universe, maybe Goku didn't want to risk it? I mentioned in my last post that he could have attempted it in his training, but he could have possibly not attempted it due to his previous experiences with Kaio-Ken.
Also, with Kaio-Ken, you have to control all of the ki in your body.
3. Kaio-Ken [#SA2#KEN]
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”
Using it while Super Saiyan would require you to have to control way more ki in order to keep the attack from harming you. That kind of concentration would be hard have in the middle of a fight.
In fact, looking at Goku's quote supports my idea even more. You control all of your ki, and make it more potent. Neither Goku nor the Daizenshuu mention anything about drawing on hidden potential.
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Re: Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:39 pm

Bando wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'd say it's safe to assume the Super Kaioken would destroy his body thus he can only use it in the afterlife. It's a simple solution really.
I disagree because Goku learned to lower the stress of Super Saiyan. So he should have at least managed some degrees of Kaio-ken during the Cell Arc.

Besides higher power level does not necessarily mean Kaio-ken will get more unwieldy. Goku had a PL of 8000 and could raise KK to x4. But then he zipped up to a PL of 90,000 and 3,000,000 and still managed to pull off a x10 comfortably.
It's still too much power for his body to handle =/. He is basically using SSJ2's power in his SSJ Body. It's going to heavily stress him out. Plus FPSSJ still puts stress on his body. FPSSJ allowed him to have a rested state so he could power up without the bulging muscles.
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