The Genki Dama

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h3ndrix2005
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The Genki Dama

Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:41 am

I'll probably get bashed for this pointless post, but here it goes. In the Super Android 13 movie, Kuririn states that you can't use the Genki Dama with a heart full of malice.

In the Majin Buu saga, Goku turned Super Saiyajin before he threw the Genki Dama at Buu. How was this possible?

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Post by Ash » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:52 am

He had already thrown the Genki Dama before he transformed; he only pushed the Genki Dama as a SSJ.
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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:58 am

Throwing and pushing are the same thing; how can a heart full of malice push something that can only be thrown by a calm and still heart?

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Post by Magnaboss » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:22 am

I imagine during the several thousand after-life years Goku spent training, he got the Super Saiyan-with-a-pure-heart-of-gold thing down pat, hence why he could do it against Buu.

But then again, considering the plotholes Toei decide to shove into the DB universe, it'd be best to ignore any movie-created technicalities and rules when applying them on the TV series.

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Post by Xyex » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:02 am

h3ndrix2005 wrote:Throwing and pushing are the same thing; how can a heart full of malice push something that can only be thrown by a calm and still heart?
Because they're not the same thing. If you throw a baseball that's entirely different than pushing it with your mind. When he transformed he wasn't controlling the Spirit Bomb any more, he was simpling pushin energy down into it to drive it down into Buu. Two entirely different things. Besides, I think the limit is that you can only form a Spirit Bomb if you have a pure heart and can't be hurt by it if you do either.
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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:12 am

But then again, considering the plotholes Toei decide to shove into the DB universe, it'd be best to ignore any movie-created technicalities and rules when applying them on the TV series.
Yeah, you're right about that; it's just that Kuririn's statement made a lot of sense to me.
Because they're not the same thing. If you throw a baseball that's entirely different than pushing it with your mind.
LoL, the mental image I got from that was hilarious! But anyways, yeah, I guess you're right, too. I didn't think to look at it that way.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:43 am

Movie 7 isn't canon anyway, though it was an awesome movie. Little off topic, I find it cool how the genki-dama was used exactly 10 times through out the course of the Dragonball trilogy, counting the anime and movies:

1st: Against Kaio's training block.
2nd: Against Vegeta.
3rd: Against Dr. Willow.
4th: Against Turles.
5th: Against Turles.
6th: Against Slugg.
7th: Against Freeza.
8th: Against Super Android 13.
9th: Against Chibi Buu.
10th Against Xing Shinron.

10 times, damn.
14 years later

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:49 am

To be honest, I got tired of seeing the Genki Dama so many times. I mean, I understand that it's the trump card of all techniques, but it got kind of old after a while.

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Post by Duo » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:53 am

From the Manga standpoint - it is never mentioned that you require any sort of state of mind or being to create it, you just have to know how. That is why it was mentioned and is possible for Cell to do so.

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:59 am

But still, it WAS taught by a god; I don't think Kaio-Sama would've taught it to a person without good intentions. LoL, can you picture him teaching the Genki Dama to the Ginyu Force? Exactly. (Yes, I know it was filler.)

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Post by Duo » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:07 am

He didn't teach it to Piccolo. When he saw Goku preparing it, he was very confused and Kuririn had to explain it to him.

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:22 am

And your point is? For whatever reason, Kaio-Sama didn't think Piccolo/Yamucha/Tenshinhan/Chaozu were worthy enough to teach the Kaio-Ken to. Why would he teach them the Genki Dama? Besides, Piccolo still had bits of evil in him at that time.

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Post by Daimao » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:03 am

The workaround here is that Kuririn only says that you can't make a Genki Dama with a malicious heart. Once it has been made, anything goes (or so the argument occurs to me).

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Post by gotenx » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:10 am

h3ndrix2005 wrote:And your point is? For whatever reason, Kaio-Sama didn't think Piccolo/Yamucha/Tenshinhan/Chaozu were worthy enough to teach the Kaio-Ken to. Why would he teach them the Genki Dama? Besides, Piccolo still had bits of evil in him at that time.
I thought Kaio-sama taught Tienshinhan how to use Kaio-ken. I remember seeing him use it (but it was probably a filler anyways).

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:14 am

You probably mean the Taiyo-ken, not Kaio-ken. They sound similar, so it's understandable.

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Post by Duo » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:26 am

I was actually trying to prove your point.

And who's to say Chaozu, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan weren't taught the Kaio-ken? Heck, Tenshinhan talks of "crossing" the fundementals of Kaio-sama's teachings with a few twists of his own, which most likely led to the "Neo Kikoho", which yielded so much power because of that.

The 3 dead fighters never had a chance to use the Kaio-ken, at least from the Manga standpoint, as I don't know all of the fillers (countless...they are.)

Piccolo wouldn't have had much time to learn anything...but apparently he gained a vast amount of power, according to Nail.

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Post by Slickmasterfunk » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:47 am

Duo wrote:From the Manga standpoint - it is never mentioned that you require any sort of state of mind or being to create it, you just have to know how. That is why it was mentioned and is possible for Cell to do so.
I always figured that Goku was able to make a "good" Spirit Bomb from the goodness of people whereas Cell could make an "evil" Spirit Bomb from the hate in people's hearts. Although they aren't canon, look at Cell's Spirit Bomb in the Budokai games, it's a lot darker and has black energy in it compared to Goku's. I always thought it would be cool if during the Cell Games both of them made Spirit Bombs and threw them at each other at the same time and had a beam struggle type thing happen. It would be the ultimate test to prove what's more powerful, good or evil.

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:58 am

Duo wrote:I was actually trying to prove your point.
LoL, sorry about that; your post just didn't make any sense to me. It sounded so random, so I figured we were debating as opposed to agreeing.
Slickmasterfunk wrote:I always figured that Goku was able to make a "good" Spirit Bomb from the goodness of people whereas Cell could make an "evil" Spirit Bomb from the hate in people's hearts.
That's a really good point. I DEFINITELY never thought of it like that. This reminds me of of Omega Shen Long's 'negative power ball' and Gogeta's 'positive knee'. (LoL, I don't remember what they were called.)

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Post by Dayspring » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:13 am

A few notes:

1) Tenshinhan created the Taiyoken prior to his appearance in early DB, it wasn't taught to him by Kaio.

2) Those with evil in them can't TOUCH the Genkidama. This is said in the battle against Vegeta; it's why the energy was passed to Krillin and why Gohan was able to push it back. Freeza and Buu were exceptions because they were so damned powerful that it became irrelevent.

3) The whole "Super Saiyan puts evil/malice in your heart" rule should be ignored because of two reasons: it comes from a non-canon source; and the only time it is said it being broken, therefore proving the rule has no claim.
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Post by Eclipse » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:09 pm

3) The whole "Super Saiyan puts evil/malice in your heart" rule should be ignored because of two reasons: it comes from a non-canon source; and the only time it is said it being broken, therefore proving the rule has no claim.
Weird. Until now, I had thought Goku couldn't form the Genki Dama as a SSJ simply because the form would absorb any energy he was forming in the Genki Dama.
The 3 dead fighters never had a chance to use the Kaio-ken, at least from the Manga standpoint, as I don't know all of the fillers (countless...they are.)
Tien did use the Kaioken, but it was a filler episode. After that, he didn't use it again.

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