The Genki Dama

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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Chaos Saiyajin
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Post by Chaos Saiyajin » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:33 pm

Dayspring wrote:
3) The whole "Super Saiyan puts evil/malice in your heart" rule should be ignored because of two reasons: it comes from a non-canon source; and the only time it is said it being broken, therefore proving the rule has no claim.
I've never heard of the SSJ form putting evil within one's heart to begin with. Besides, since Goku was the only SSJ to ever learn the Genki-Dama, it's sorta a stupid thing to argue over.
slickmasterfunk wrote:
I always figured that Goku was able to make a "good" Spirit Bomb from the goodness of people whereas Cell could make an "evil" Spirit Bomb from the hate in people's hearts. Although they aren't canon, look at Cell's Spirit Bomb in the Budokai games, it's a lot darker and has black energy in it compared to Goku's. I always thought it would be cool if during the Cell Games both of them made Spirit Bombs and threw them at each other at the same time and had a beam struggle type thing happen. It would be the ultimate test to prove what's more powerful, good or evil.
I think your idea about Goku's 'good' genki-dama from pure-hearted people and Cell' 'evil' genki-dama from evil-hearted people is great! That would've been so awesome to see two Genki-damas going at it instead of Kamehameha Waves.
h3ndrix2005 wrote:
You probably mean the Taiyo-ken, not Kaio-ken. They sound similar, so it's understandable.
Taiyo-ken being mistaken for Kaioken? I think not. Taiyo-ken or Solar Flare as known in the dub was taught to Tenshinhan by Tsuru Sennin. Kaioken produces an aura when used, the Taiyo-ken doesn't. It is however, likely that Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu all know the Kaioken. Why? Goku learned it from Kaio-sama, why wouldn't he teach it to those three? Piccolo was now no longer evil, so Kaio would still have taguht Kaioken to him, if he had trained with Kaio.

Piccolo of course, wanted nothing to do with training with Kaio.

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Rocketman
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Post by Rocketman » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:54 pm

Didn't King Kai say even he had not mastered the Kaioken? Maybe it was Goku's Saiyan abilities that allowed him to control it.

As for the Spirit Bomb, I think Goku never used it (in canon) after Freeza until the final fight was he thought it was a fairly useless technique.

I mean, Vegeta and Freeza took the Spirit Bombs head-on and both got up and kept fighting. That, plus the time it takes to charge, and Goku probably figured he'd be better off with the Kamehameha and Super Saiyan.

And now I have a craving for those little Spirit Bomb candies...

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Post by Last Son of Krypton » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:21 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Movie 7 isn't canon anyway, though it was an awesome movie. Little off topic, I find it cool how the genki-dama was used exactly 10 times through out the course of the Dragonball trilogy, counting the anime and movies:

1st: Against Kaio's training block.
2nd: Against Vegeta.
3rd: Against Dr. Willow.
4th: Against Tullece.
5th: Against Tullece.
6th: Against Slugg.
7th: Against Freeza.
8th: Against Super Android 13.
9th: Against Chibi Buu.
10th Against Xing Shinron.

10 times, damn.
None of the movies are canon. Using the Genki Dama 10 times is impressive, but consider how many times it failed. Not counting movies it only worked twice. I'm not counting the training block because that wasn't against an actual opponent. So 2 successesful attempts out of 10? Not too good. It's more of a last resort. When all else fails try to hit them with a Genki Dama.

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Post by gotenx » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 pm

Rocketman wrote:Didn't King Kai say even he had not mastered the Kaioken? Maybe it was Goku's Saiyan abilities that allowed him to control it.

As for the Spirit Bomb, I think Goku never used it (in canon) after Freeza until the final fight was he thought it was a fairly useless technique.

I mean, Vegeta and Freeza took the Spirit Bombs head-on and both got up and kept fighting. That, plus the time it takes to charge, and Goku probably figured he'd be better off with the Kamehameha and Super Saiyan.

And now I have a craving for those little Spirit Bomb candies...
Spirit bomb candies?... What the hell?!?!

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Post by B-kun » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:49 pm

Last Son of Krypton wrote:None of the movies are canon.
Nine and thirteen fit into the anime timeline, no matter how much people try to bitch and tear down every single point. ("This didn't happen in the manga" is something of a moot point when dealing with the MOVIES)

That last part in parentheses wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, but I've seen that arguement before and it's quite frankly silly. I might as well disregard the Sailor Moon movies because they couldn't occur in the manga (even the manga "Lover of Princess Kaguya" is iffy, and the S movie was based on it..)

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Post by MyVisionity » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:20 am

B-kun wrote:
Last Son of Krypton wrote:None of the movies are canon.
Nine and thirteen fit into the anime timeline, no matter how much people try to bitch and tear down every single point. ("This didn't happen in the manga" is something of a moot point when dealing with the MOVIES)
I think what Kal-El meant was that using any of the movies to judge the effectiveness of the Genki-Dama is useless since they don't really follow the series's laws so strictly.

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Post by Duo » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:50 am

If Movie 9 did happen and Mr. Satan saved the world from 2 huge evils twice...wouldn't they, you know...mention the second time sometime again? Ever?

And 13 contradicts the Anime and Manga because it puts out the wrong order of who's the strongest. Is that hard to understand?

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Post by Dayspring » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:47 am

Rocketman wrote:Didn't King Kai say even he had not mastered the Kaioken? Maybe it was Goku's Saiyan abilities that allowed him to control it.
I think Kaio did use it at one time in his life, but I think Kaioken x1 did to him what Kaioken x3 and x4 did to Goku (when Goku fought Vegeta). If not, then how could Kaio have taught it?
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Post by MyVisionity » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:48 pm

Duo wrote:If Movie 9 did happen and Mr. Satan saved the world from 2 huge evils twice...wouldn't they, you know...mention the second time sometime again? Ever?
What's being said is that Movie 9 can fit into the anime timeline, but the movies themselves are separate from the anime's plot.

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Post by Duo » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:48 pm

I'll surrender to the fact that they don't directly contradict what was happening in the story, but I still think the movies 9 and 13 had things wrong, just not as blatant as...say...Tree of might or Broly.

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Post by LaRésistance » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:13 pm

You shouldn't forget about the Chô Genkidama which Goku performs as a Super Saiyajin. You can find more about it in the video games section of the board.
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Post by *PINHEAD* » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:08 pm

Since it's just movie filler...

Nevermind. I'll answer the question. Logically, you can say that he couldn't gather the Genki Dama in a heart of rage, and in the fight with Buu, he didn't gather it as a Super Saiyan--he just pushed it. Another way you can see it is that Super Saiyan doesn't necessarily mean he's full of malice. Perhaps only in that certain part of the movie he is, whereas by the Buu saga, Son Goku managed to control the state as if it were his norm. I don't watch the movies so I wouldn't know if he had mastered the form by the time the movie's supposed to take place.
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Rocketman
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Post by Rocketman » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:53 pm

Remember, during his training in the Time Chamber, Goku got rid of the restless feeling/rage/etc in his Super Saiyan state.

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Post by Tenka-Ichi » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:20 am

Hmmm... From what I know, the only mention of not being able to create a Genki Dama as a super siyan is in movie 7, where Goku transforms into a super saiyan while creating a genki dama and Kuririn sais "I thought you couldn't make a genki dama as a super saiyan" (or something like that). So, if the only mention of something is when it's being proven wrong, wouldn't that make it wrong?

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Post by Tsukento » Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:24 am

B-kun wrote:Nine and thirteen fit into the anime timeline, no matter how much people try to bitch and tear down every single point. ("This didn't happen in the manga" is something of a moot point when dealing with the MOVIES)
Uh, there's no way 13 could've happened. For one, it would've had to have taken place after Kid Buu was killed. If that was so, absolutely no one begged for Mr. Satan to show up. Piccolo, Mr. Satan and Majin Buu were no where to be found. Not to mention, if the sword Kid Trunks did inherit from Tapion was the very same sword that Future Trunks uses, it'd completely contradict the timelines. Future Trunks' past does not have a Goten, all of the Z-Senshi were killed, there was no form beyond Super Saiyan, Goku died from a heart disease before everyone else was killed, Earth's population was reduced to being halfway gone. The movie doesn't fit at all with the anime's story.

Yanno, I wondered why it was that Kid Buu was capable of pushing back the Genki Dama when evil couldn't touch it. I assume it was probably because it was thrown by a weakened Goku and because Buu was simply too strong at the moment.

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Post by B-kun » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:02 am

Tsukento wrote:
B-kun wrote:Nine and thirteen fit into the anime timeline, no matter how much people try to bitch and tear down every single point. ("This didn't happen in the manga" is something of a moot point when dealing with the MOVIES)
Uh, there's no way 13 could've happened. For one, it would've had to have taken place after Kid Buu was killed. If that was so, absolutely no one begged for Mr. Satan to show up. Piccolo, Mr. Satan and Majin Buu were no where to be found. Not to mention, if the sword Kid Trunks did inherit from Tapion was the very same sword that Future Trunks uses, it'd completely contradict the timelines. Future Trunks' past does not have a Goten, all of the Z-Senshi were killed, there was no form beyond Super Saiyan, Goku died from a heart disease before everyone else was killed, Earth's population was reduced to being halfway gone. The movie doesn't fit at all with the anime's story.

Yanno, I wondered why it was that Kid Buu was capable of pushing back the Genki Dama when evil couldn't touch it. I assume it was probably because it was thrown by a weakened Goku and because Buu was simply too strong at the moment.
... .You didn't read Xyex's reply, did you? It does take place after Kid Buu. There's nothing to say it's before. And Trunks' sword is in GT, so he does keep it. It is not the same sword at Mirai Trunks, it's *a* sword, possibly to show him growing into his alternate self.

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Post by Xyex » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:07 am

Uh, there's no way 13 could've happened. For one, it would've had to have taken place after Kid Buu was killed. If that was so, absolutely no one begged for Mr. Satan to show up. Piccolo, Mr. Satan and Majin Buu were no where to be found. Not to mention, if the sword Kid Trunks did inherit from Tapion was the very same sword that Future Trunks uses, it'd completely contradict the timelines. Future Trunks' past does not have a Goten, all of the Z-Senshi were killed, there was no form beyond Super Saiyan, Goku died from a heart disease before everyone else was killed, Earth's population was reduced to being halfway gone. The movie doesn't fit at all with the anime's story.
1) It's post Kid Buu
2) It's soon enough after Buu that Majin Buu is still in hiding.
3) Hercule's with Majin Buu
4) Hildegarn wasn't around long enough for people to start calling for Hercule.
5) Piccolo's been absent for a while.
6) It's not Future Trunks' sword. It's just a sword.
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Post by Duo » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:18 am

What is this absence of Piccolo you speak of? He spends his days at Kami-sama's sanctuary and played a large role in the Boo story arc.

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Post by Xyex » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:53 am

Duo wrote:What is this absence of Piccolo you speak of? He spends his days at Kami-sama's sanctuary and played a large role in the Boo story arc.
I'm talking about the movies. He's been absent in them since movie 10 IIRC.
Yanno, I wondered why it was that Kid Buu was capable of pushing back the Genki Dama when evil couldn't touch it. I assume it was probably because it was thrown by a weakened Goku and because Buu was simply too strong at the moment.
The attack hurts evil people, yes, but it still follows the rules of all moves. Power. Kid Buu had enough power to push the attack back. That's really all there is to it.
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