Did Gohan even lose power?

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Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:52 pm

The more I think about Kamiccolo9's suggestion, the more plausible it gets. According to the Daizenshuu 2 Gohan's power did not change since he's been a kid. This is, however, supposedly contradicted by Vegeta's statement. While it is apparent that Gohan's SSJ2 form is lacking because it lacks anger, Gohan himself is not mentioned to have gotten weaker until his fight with Dabura where Vegeta says he got weaker. Did he really? Or is Vegeta just so frustrated by Gohan's lack of skill he just says he got weaker? One would normally assume yes since Gohan trained for the Budokai, which should effectively make him stronger, but he spent most of his time training Goten and Videl. He didn't have a lot of dedicated training time.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Insertclevername » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:57 pm

My thoughts are that he's essentially the same strength as he was 7 years prior but he couldn't gain power from rage. Veggie's comments are from his anger/being a dick as usual.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Blade » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:16 am

The Manga takes precedent over the Daizenshuu in most cases, in my opinion, as the Daizenshuu contains a lot of supplementary information which are merely join-the-dots afterthoughts.

It's pretty clear in the Manga that Gohan is weaker due to lack of training, as both Vegeta and Goku seem to confirm it.

Volume 38, Chapter 7
Goku, Gohan and Vegeta talking before Dabura appears
Vegeta: We're probably stronger than him now. Too bad, he was lulled by the peace and hasn't been training much
Goku: It's your turn next, have you been training?
Gohan: Huh?

Volume 38, Chapter 10
Goku and Vegeta talking whilst Gohan fights Dabura
Goku: He's a lot stronger than I thought
Vegeta: But he isn't so strong that we can't beat him. Gohan was stronger as a brat
Goku: I guess he got lazy.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:58 am

Vegeta is really angry during this fight, his lack of patience likely led to his outburst. He could also be referring to Gohan's anger boosts. They were easily accessed back in the day after all. He could also be referring to his general skill. It's pretty clear that Gohan has been a slacker but that doesn't mean his BP has dropped.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Blade » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:08 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Vegeta is really angry during this fight, his lack of patience likely led to his outburst. He could also be referring to Gohan's anger boosts. They were easily accessed back in the day after all. He could also be referring to his general skill. It's pretty clear that Gohan has been a slacker but that doesn't mean his BP has dropped.
It's heavily implied that Goku agrees with Vegeta's assessment, and Goku isn't angry or rage driven. Furthermore, Vegeta's anger appears partly invoked by the fact that Gohan is weaker, thus rendering him unable to deal with Dabura as quickly as Vegeta would like matters to be settled.

The notion of a 'rage boost' in regard to Gohan's power is conjecture at best. Gohan's raw emotion has always been shown to be a gateway to an already existing, but latent, power. Gohan had plenty of reason to be angry and had plenty of emotional impetus when fighting Dabura. Krillin and Piccolo's fate depended on Dabura being defeated and he'd just witnessed his girlfriend get savaged by Spopovich, who was under Babidi's control, and saw Kibito ruthlessly murdered.

I can see the point you're trying make, TheMightOzaru, but frankly in the black-and-white of the narrative there's no evidence for it. It's pretty plain cut - Gohan neglected his training after defeating Cell, and was therefore less powerful.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:07 am

Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”
These are the only lines that indicate that Gohan got weaker, but it's not necessary that he got weaker by having lower battle power, since both Goku & Vegeta seem to have the impression that he was stronger as a child because "his body has gotten rusty" & he "slack off". And since the Daizenshuu state that he didn't get any stronger or weaker, then my conclusion is this:

Gohan's power hasn't changed after 7 years, but the fact that he lost his skill has made him weaker than before, and since he can't get stronger through his anger, he is even weaker than before.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Son_Gohan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:23 am

Unless you no longer consider Super Saiyan as a multiplier, I think it's made clear enough that he lost strength.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:26 am

Son_Gohan wrote:Unless you no longer consider Super Saiyan as a multiplier, I think it's made clear enough that he lost strength.
What does the multiplier has anything to do with this?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Blade » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:05 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”
These are the only lines that indicate that Gohan got weaker, but it's not necessary that he got weaker by having lower battle power, since both Goku & Vegeta seem to have the impression that he was stronger as a child because "his body has gotten rusty" & he "slack off". And since the Daizenshuu state that he didn't get any stronger or weaker, then my conclusion is this:

Gohan's power hasn't changed after 7 years, but the fact that he lost his skill has made him weaker than before, and since he can't get stronger through his anger, he is even weaker than before.
I think you're confusing battle power with potential. Battle power denotes the actual present ability within someone, not the propensity to reach a certain level. The narrative all the way through Gohan's life in the manga refers to hidden potential, from his feats against the Saiyans and training by Piccolo, to the unlocking of potential by Guru, to the unleashing against Cell and finally with the ritual carried out on the planet of the Kais. It's implied that Gohan's potential was always latent within him, he just needed to awaken it.

With this in mind, if you're saying that his battle power is the same as it was against Cell then it would be almost like saying that Freeza saga Gohan had the same battle power that he will later have against Cell, he just hadn't had the right 'rage boost' to unlock it yet. Against Dabura Gohan definitely still had the potential within him to reach the level he was at as a child but due to his lack of training his actual battle power that he was capable of using there and then was lower. Whilst his power did increase rapidly due to rage against Cell his body was a well-honed machine at that point that had undergone several years of training in preparation for the Androids and then a further year of intense training with Goku in the RoSaT. Against Dabura he was fighting off the back of a couple of weeks light training at best.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:24 pm

Blade wrote:I think you're confusing battle power with potential.
I don't. Also, potential isn't the right word, dormant/hidden power is. :P
Blade wrote:With this in mind, if you're saying that his battle power is the same as it was against Cell then it would be almost like saying that Freeza saga Gohan had the same battle power that he will later have against Cell, he just hadn't had the right 'rage boost' to unlock it yet.
What are you talking about? Gohan has a steady battle power through his life, like everyone else, that he increases through training. However, he also has big amounts of dormant power in him, and he has the ability to increase his power by "borrowing" that power through his rage (and his Super Saiyan forms).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Blade » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:37 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Blade wrote:I think you're confusing battle power with potential.
I don't. Also, potential isn't the right word, dormant/hidden power is. :P
Blade wrote:With this in mind, if you're saying that his battle power is the same as it was against Cell then it would be almost like saying that Freeza saga Gohan had the same battle power that he will later have against Cell, he just hadn't had the right 'rage boost' to unlock it yet.
What are you talking about? Gohan has a steady battle power through his life, like everyone else, that he increases through training. However, he also has big amounts of dormant power in him, and he has the ability to increase his power by "borrowing" that power through his rage (and his Super Saiyan forms).
Which, like I said earlier, wasn't a problem against Dabura. There was plenty of emotional impetus for him to win the fight, just because he didn't throw an adolescent hissy fit about it doesn't mean he wasn't feeling emotion during the battle. He was clearly less powerful than he was against Cell, as is backed up by the estimations of Goku and Vegeta. When Gohan eventually does show his emotion, whilst trying to destroy Majin Buu's egg, he further demonstrates this loss of power - before Majin Buu knocks him out in a single attack. Vegeta, on the other hand, is at least able to put up some kind of a fight against Buu - further adding weight to his earlier claim that he believed himself and Goku to be more powerful than Gohan - 'Majin' boost or not.
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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:42 pm

But against Dabra, Gohan couldn't get a rage boost, and his skills had gotten rusty, all of those due to his lack of training for 7 years. He also didn't use Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra IMO, so my guess is that Goku & Vegeta were comparing Gohan with Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan. I don't believe that Gohan literally got weaker.

Also, Goku & Vegeta surpassing Gohan doesn't have anything to do with Gohan loosing power or not.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Son_Gohan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:59 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote:Unless you no longer consider Super Saiyan as a multiplier, I think it's made clear enough that he lost strength.
What does the multiplier has anything to do with this?
Because if Super Saiyan forms are supposed to act as multipliers of their normal strength, then they are naturally all connected. When the Saiyan gets injured and loses strength while transformed, reverting back to normal shouldn't make them totally fine again, they would still be in a weakened state. Hence the power they would have as Super Saiyans should reflect the condition of their base form.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:03 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote:Unless you no longer consider Super Saiyan as a multiplier, I think it's made clear enough that he lost strength.
What does the multiplier has anything to do with this?
Because if Super Saiyan forms are supposed to act as multipliers of their normal strength, then they are naturally all connected. When the Saiyan gets injured and loses strength while transformed, reverting back to normal shouldn't make them totally fine again, they would still be in a weakened state. Hence the power they would have as Super Saiyans should reflect the condition of their base form.
I agree with this, but how is that related with this thread?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by Son_Gohan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:44 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote: Because if Super Saiyan forms are supposed to act as multipliers of their normal strength, then they are naturally all connected. When the Saiyan gets injured and loses strength while transformed, reverting back to normal shouldn't make them totally fine again, they would still be in a weakened state. Hence the power they would have as Super Saiyans should reflect the condition of their base form.
I agree with this, but how is that related with this thread?
Super Saiyan forms are supposed to act as multipliers of Gohan's normal strength, so they are all naturally connected. When Gohan gets injured and loses strength while transformed, for example, reverting back to normal shouldn't make him totally fine again, he would still be in a weakened state. Conversely, when he gains power from anger while transformed, his other forms would also increase accordingly. Hence the power he would have as a Super Saiyan reflects the condition of his base form, and if he's stated to be weaker in one form, then he undoubtedly lost power.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:51 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:Super Saiyan forms are supposed to act as multipliers of Gohan's normal strength, so they are all naturally connected. When Gohan gets injured and loses strength while transformed, for example, reverting back to normal shouldn't make him totally fine again, he would still be in a weakened state. Conversely, when he gains power from anger while transformed, his other forms would also increase accordingly. Hence the power he would have as a Super Saiyan reflects the condition of his base form, and if he's stated to be weaker in one form, then he undoubtedly lost power.
Except that Vegeta never said directly that Gohan lost power. He said that Gohan was stronger as a kid, sure, but as a kid, he had trained his ass a lot, and he also got a rage boost. During Boo arc however, Gohan had gotten rusty & couldn't take power from his rage, which is what makes him weaker than before, IMO.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:56 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But against Dabra, Gohan couldn't get a rage boost, and his skills had gotten rusty, all of those due to his lack of training for 7 years. He also didn't use Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra IMO, so my guess is that Goku & Vegeta were comparing Gohan with Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan. I don't believe that Gohan literally got weaker.
:think: Don´t make any sense that Boo´s arc SSJ2 Vegeta compare his powers and SSJ2 Goku powers with FPSSJ1 Gohan. Obviously SSJ2 is way stronger than FPSSJ1.

I personally think that Gohan used his Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura but somehow the sparks are not shown ( perhaps due to their lack of training he became a weaker SSJ2 ). When Gohan transformed in to SSJ2 the first time against Perfect Cell, he made it through a rage boost and sparks are shown. SSJ2 Gohan with a rage boost is all the power of a SSJ2. SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Kakarotto have all the power of a SSJ2.

That´s my though. Gohan lost his ability to rage boost and that´s why he is a weaker SSJ2.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:00 pm

MDSTSSJ wrote:I personally think that Gohan used his Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura but somehow the sparks are not shown ( perhaps due to their lack of training he became a weaker SSJ2 ).
Gohan not having sparks because he was weaker doesn't make sense, because he did have sparks when he transformed for Kibito.

And couldn't Vegeta be comparing his SS self with SS Goku & SS Gohan? Since SS2 is a set multiplier, if Vegeta had seen SS Gohan's full power, he should be able to estimate his power as a Super Saiyan 2.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by MDSTSSJ » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MDSTSSJ wrote:I personally think that Gohan used his Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura but somehow the sparks are not shown ( perhaps due to their lack of training he became a weaker SSJ2 ).
Gohan not having sparks because he was weaker doesn't make sense, because he did have sparks when he transformed for Kibito.

And couldn't Vegeta be comparing his SS self with SS Goku & SS Gohan? Since SS2 is a set multiplier, if Vegeta had seen SS Gohan's full power, he should be able to estimate his power as a Super Saiyan 2.
:o Yes you are right, I re check that but after Gohan transforms in to a SSJ2 against Kibito, Vegeta says ¨ He´s not even close to the level he was at when he fought Cell¨ ¨ He got caught up in peace and stopped training¨. Manga stated.

That´s why I think, Vegeta seeing SSJ2 Gohan, he always compare his and Kakarotto SSJ2 powers with SSJ2 Gohan powers.

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Re: Did Gohan even lose power?

Post by DoomieDoomie911 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:35 pm

It's plausible that he didn't lose power, it was probably just Vegeta being Vegeta. But there is a possibility that he did lose power, since he didn't (as far as we know) really train over the 7 year time skip.
Last edited by DoomieDoomie911 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
She/her (I have a Twitter account now.)

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