The After-Afterlife

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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Jerseymilk
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:33 am

Ummmmmm, when it was suddenly revealed by Vegeta and Nappa that he was a Namek, therefore instead an alien race of people.
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Post by Chaos Saiyajin » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:48 am

I've always wondered why Daimao's children weren't Namekseijin. I know that Toriyama hadn't come up with them yet, but it brings up a huge problem: Piccolo Jr. Piccolo was the only Namekseijin brought to life by Daimao, the simple fact being because he was simply a reincarnation of his father.

I guess that Daimao was so evil that the infant Namekseijin with in were deformed and made of pure evil because of the 'demonic chi' within Daimao at the time. I also think that Piccolo himself could've produced such creatures, that is, until his first death. After that, Piccolo has become good, so if he was to produce a child, it'd probably be a normal Namekseijin.
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:33 pm

I think you're going to have ignore filler on this one, guys. Yes yes, get angry that I'm anti-filler yet again, but filler scenes are the only thing that make this difficult.

In the manga: If you die when already dead you'll cease to exist.

This makes sense since all you are is consciousness once you die (exceptions being when Baba, Kami or Kaio reconstituted people's bodies). If your consciousness is destroyed, what's left of you? This all goes back to Descartes' theory.

Anime: If you die when already dead you'll cease to exist. Unless you're already dead, in which case you'll just come back together and/oget sent to the afterlife. This just doesn't make sense and causes all the confusion.
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Post by The S » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:19 pm

As for Cell and Freeza being invincible when dead, it's best not to consider what happened in GT since the people who wrote that story evidently didn't care about how inconsistant it was. Back in DBZ everybody that had a body when dead, regardless of where they went, had a halo, yet in GT they don't...
Toriyama himself was rather inconsistant because he kept forgetting things, or threw out things that didn't necessarily like anymore. Also, I believe the "everyone having a body and halo" thing was anime-only, so it's in the same category as GT.
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Post by Eclipse » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:51 pm

If you arn't a 'great person' your soul goes to Anoyo and you appear as just a little cloud and you're sent to hell to wait to be re-incarnated. In this cloud form, you are not a person - you are a cloud. When Krillin dies and then is wished back, he remembers nothing of his cloud-ness.
That would not work, as when Vegeta comes back during the Buu saga, he mentions to Goku that he saw the transformation of SSJ3 by watching from the afterlife.....no wait, nvm, just remembered Freeza and the others watching the Kid Buu fight...>_<

Also, the Ginyu Force appearing in the After Life was somewhat filler.
Toriyama himself was rather inconsistant because he kept forgetting things, or threw out things that didn't necessarily like anymore. Also, I believe the "everyone having a body and halo" thing was anime-only, so it's in the same category as GT.
If you're referring to people having halo and a body, then no, as it's been seen in DB as well.

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Post by Duo » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:42 pm

What he said was "Everyone having a body and halo." as in, the idea that every single person got to keep their bodies and got halo's, when in the manga it was a rare honor reserved for great Martial Arts masters, heroes, and other people of great accomplishment in life.

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Post by The S » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:54 pm

What he said was "Everyone having a body and halo." as in, the idea that every single person got to keep their bodies and got halo's, when in the manga it was a rare honor reserved for great Martial Arts masters, heroes, and other people of great accomplishment in life.
That is indeed what I meant. I knew of individuals such as Son Gokuu, Son Gohan Ojii-san, Vegeta, etc. keeping their halos.
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Post by *PINHEAD* » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:57 pm

Once they die if they're already dead, they get born again! :shock:


Eh...the whole concept of death in Dragon Ball is screwy to begin with. I mean, Son Goku has his soul reunited with his body yet he was still considered dead...so I dunno...
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Post by desirecampbell » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:24 pm

*PINHEAD* wrote:Once they die if they're already dead, they get born again! :shock:


Eh...the whole concept of death in Dragon Ball is screwy to begin with. I mean, Son Goku has his soul reunited with his body yet he was still considered dead...so I dunno...
When was that?

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:56 am

After his first death. His body was brought with him to the afterlife, yet he still had the halo.

And with the notion of halos...in Dragon Ball, that old geezer (the Kaioshin sealed up in the sword) "trades" lives with Goku. This doesn't really make sense; it makes it seem as if life is just some state one is in. The concept of life and death in Dragon Ball is very different than in real life.
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Post by Xyex » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:49 am

Duo wrote:
Xyex wrote:
El_Diablo wrote:Kami-sama says that when someone is killed by a demon, their soul is forced to wander in limbo forever.
Except we now know that Piccolo and his henchmen are not and never were Demons. So the question still stands. That and, where was Krillin after Freeza killed him? There was no mention of him having gone to train with King Kai and the impression I got when he came back was that the last thing he remembered was Namek...
When was Piccolo and his offspring being demons ever contradicted? Being a Demon isn't a race of some kind. It is a state of ones being...ones mind. Perhaps the amount of evil in your body, as well as having a great deal of Chi. Evil Chi. "Demonic" Chi?
Uh, says who? Dabura was the king of Demons, he was a Demon. Piccolo was not a Demon. He was simply an evil Namek. If, as you say, being evil made you a Demon, 95% of the population of the universe would be in limbo. Tien and the others would have, after being killed by Napp, been in limbo. For that matter, Goku, after being killed by Piccolo, would have also been in limbo.
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Post by Domon » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:43 am

For that matter, Goku, after being killed by Piccolo, would have also been in limbo.
Kami explained this by saying that the evil in Piccolo has lessen. Thus, Radtiz and Goku never experiened limbo state.

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Post by Xyex » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:30 am

Domon wrote:
For that matter, Goku, after being killed by Piccolo, would have also been in limbo.
Kami explained this by saying that the evil in Piccolo has lessen. Thus, Radtiz and Goku never experiened limbo state.
Except there's absolutly no reason it should have lessened up to this point. He should be just as evil as ever, if not more so. And that still doesn't explain those who died at the hands of Nappa and such if you follow Duo's line of thought.
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Post by El_Diablo » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:15 pm

Popo: You seem troubled, my lord. What is the matter?

Kami-sama: Our Piccolo... it seems that he is indeed different from before... He is definetely evil, but it feels like the crude, cunning violence he once had is gone...

Popo: That was my thought as well... One thing is certain: No longer is he the "Dai-Maô" of old.

Kami-sama: I knew that there was something amiss when Raditz's soul, after he was killed by Piccolo, ended up in the underworld... Usually, the souls of those killed by demons cannot rest in peace, suffering... The fact that the Piccolo-killed Raditz was in the Underworld, nevertheless, means that Piccolo is clearly different from before... Perhaps he is even aware of it... Aware that I... and thus he, Piccolo have only one year to live...

<later>

He knows this... He might be wanting to leave something behind... Even Son Goku's son

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Post by MyVisionity » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:21 pm

Xyex wrote:
Duo wrote:
Xyex wrote: Except we now know that Piccolo and his henchmen are not and never were Demons. So the question still stands. That and, where was Krillin after Freeza killed him? There was no mention of him having gone to train with King Kai and the impression I got when he came back was that the last thing he remembered was Namek...
When was Piccolo and his offspring being demons ever contradicted? Being a Demon isn't a race of some kind. It is a state of ones being...ones mind. Perhaps the amount of evil in your body, as well as having a great deal of Chi. Evil Chi. "Demonic" Chi?
Uh, says who? Dabura was the king of Demons, he was a Demon. Piccolo was not a Demon. He was simply an evil Namek. If, as you say, being evil made you a Demon, 95% of the population of the universe would be in limbo. Tenshinhan and the others would have, after being killed by Napp, been in limbo. For that matter, Goku, after being killed by Piccolo, would have also been in limbo.
Piccolo and the gang were originally said to be demons, probably before the Namekian background was written. And even if not, like Duo said, being called a demon can simply mean that your are a creature of darkness, or an evil soul. So then one would only expect that being killed by Piccolo would put that soul in limbo. However, this proves to not be the case when moving into DBZ, as Piccolo's origins are fleshed out as a Namekian, although there are several instances where they talk of Piccolo in the past as having aligned himself with the Demon community, thus earning the title of "Great Demon King".

EDIT:I didn't catch Diablo's post beforehand, but that's a good point about Piccolo's evil having lessened, and erasing his demonic status.

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Post by Xyex » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:45 pm

There's still no cause of him to be less evil. In fact, it is due to his being less evil that he died. Had he stayed evil he wouldn't not have saved Gohan and thus, not died. He could have easily lasted until Goku returned then. So that point is void. Kami just thought that Piccolo was a Demon and thus thought Krillin and the others were in limbo and never bothered to check.
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Post by El_Diablo » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:10 pm

That is pretty bad reasoning.

Kami-sama knows what he is talking about.

He is God after all.
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Post by Xyex » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:12 pm

El_Diablo wrote:That is pretty bad reasoning.

Kami-sama knows what he is talking about.

He is God after all.
And yet he's clueless about being a Namek, go figure. The deities in the DB universe are uttlerly clueless about what's going on around them. They don't pay much attention to things I've found.
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Post by MyVisionity » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:35 pm

Xyex wrote:There's still no cause of him to be less evil. In fact, it is due to his being less evil that he died.
Piccolo's evil lessened before he trained Gohan and fought Raditz. He had been less evil ever since he was reborn. This is partly what Kami-sama meant when he said that Piccolo was unlike the Daimaou of old. Goku had already previously acknowledged that Piccolo was different from before.

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Post by desirecampbell » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:47 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Xyex wrote:There's still no cause of him to be less evil. In fact, it is due to his being less evil that he died.
Piccolo's evil lessened before he trained Gohan and fought Raditz. He had been less evil ever since he was reborn. This is partly what Kami-sama meant when he said that Piccolo was unlike the Daimaou of old. Goku had already previously acknowledged that Piccolo was different from before.
That's probably true, but it still doesn't mean he was in fact a demon to begin with. Is there any instace where Piccolo (Diamo or otherwise) ever killed anybody and put their soul in limbo?

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