Saiyan Persistence

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askani son
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Saiyan Persistence

Post by askani son » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:02 pm

My opinion has always been that the highlight of Saiyan nature is to always strive to be stronger, to push the limits of their strength and have the ability to do so with their rapidly increasing battle strength (just get beat to within an inch of your life and you're sorted...:P).

My question here is, How come Goku, Vegeta and the rest of the Saiyan Z-Fighters increase their power-levels so drastically compared to other Saiyans?
There must have been Saiyans trying to take over other planets and come across natives just as, if not more, powerful than them and left the fight with their life barely intact. What I am saying is why hadn't any Saiyans become stronger than they had? I mean several generations of taking over planets must make you stronger...
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Post by desirecampbell » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:17 pm

Well, you've got to remember that the saiyans wern't push overs. Compared to most species they were incredibly powerful. A PowerLevel of a couple thousand isn't a small power level - it's freakin' huge. Bardock and King Vegeta had PLs around TEN thousand.
Secondly, Saiyans wern't exactly hard in training to be the best, they were basically they were sent off to clear out the 'easy' planets, planets whose inhabitants were quite weak. These people wouldn't put up much of a fight against the sayians. Would you expect Goku to get much stronger if he wiped out evryone on earth (except the handful of excellent fighters he knew)?

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:20 pm

Secondly, Saiyans wern't exactly hard in training to be the best, they were basically they were sent off to clear out the 'easy' planets, planets whose inhabitants were quite weak.
The only ones sent to 'easy' planets were the ones with low power levels.

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Post by Chaos Saiyajin » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:16 pm

The reason for Goku and Vegeta's PLs increasing so much is because they have become SSJs. Normal Saiyajin power can only extend so far, but if the barriers of the SSJ transformation are transcended, the power level can drastically increase, no matter what form the Saiyajin is in.
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Post by Last Son of Krypton » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:21 pm

Well, considering that all of the Saiyans played an important role in the series at one point or another they all had to grow exponentionally in power. If they didn't grow they wouldn't have been able to fight the new uber powerful villain. So they had to gain more power as the story progressed.

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Post by Dayspring » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:03 pm

Saiyans wanted to FIGHT stronger opponents, not train in order to be a match for them. Many probably got killed for such arrogance as a result. Also, as stated earlier, they were incredibly powerful in comparison to other races. Now factor in that they mostly fought in Oozaru form, a state so powerful that the average Saiyan was as powerful as the Ginyu force.
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Post by Xyex » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:31 pm

Average Saiya-jin in Oozaru as powerful as the Ginyu Force? Not quite Dayspring. With Nappa as an Elite I'd say that First class was probably around 1 or 2 thousand. So that's still weaker than the Ginyu, but yes, exceptionally more powerful than any other normal race out there. The likes of Zarbon and them are all the elites of their races most likely.

To answer the question, Goku and Vegeta were able to become so much stronger than the average Saiya-jin because they fought opponents more powerful than them (allowing the Zenkai to trigger after getting pounded) and those fights didn't result in them dieing. Think about it, if a Saiya-jin that's trying to take over a planet were to lose he/she would be killed so they wouldn't get stronger. Those that won most likely didn't have much trouble.
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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:46 pm

With Nappa as an Elite I'd say that First class was probably around 1 or 2 thousand.
But...wasn't Raditz, a third class soldier, around 1000?

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Post by Xyex » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:29 am

h3ndrix2005 wrote:
With Nappa as an Elite I'd say that First class was probably around 1 or 2 thousand.
But...wasn't Raditz, a third class soldier, around 1000?
IIRC, he was a first class.... I think. Could be off... Even so, first class wouldn't be higher than 4k so they'd still be weaker than the Ginyu Force.
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Post by Super Sonic » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:54 am

Raditz I believe like his old man and brother was of the peasant class.

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Post by Duo » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:42 am

While Saiyan "Classes" are exclusivly Anime, I can say with confidence that Raditz stated himself as "First Class" while Kakarot was referred to as "Third Class".

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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:22 am

While Saiyan "Classes" are exclusivly Anime, I can say with confidence that Raditz stated himself as "First Class" while Kakarot was referred to as "Third Class".
No, saiyan classes are in the manga, too. And, when did Raditz ever say that?

Also, if a first class saiyan were around 4,000, their oozaru form would be 40,000. Excluding Captain Ginyu, I think that's enough to give the rest of the Ginyu Force a run for their money.

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Post by ItsAllGood » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:27 am

Hmm..Lets see here.

Nappa had a power level of around 4000, thats fine. He didn't stick around long enough for any more in-depth speculation, so i'll leave that for the moment.

Even Vegeta, a first class warrior, with 18,000, rather good too. Mind you, this was increased to around ONE MILLION later.

It's always intrigued me how they have trained all their lives up to this point to gain strength, but only increased it in small increments until the meeting with Freeza, where all the remaining fighters levels increased exponentially?

And let's not forget, when Goku was ready to fight Freeza, he had a pl of around 300 000 as a base? Rather good, since only a Saga earlier, he was struggling with keeping up with Vegeta. This far surpasses even King Vegeta and most Oozaru for that matter! And all this in the space of a few sagas?

What about the ENTIRE Saiyan race, with their conquering of worlds and powerful opponents over who knows how long a timeframe - suggesting that a mere 10,000 was an "elite" level?

And while I'm at it , Vegeta could have increased his power much earlier than his meetings with the Z fighters. He told Goku that regeneration after near death increases Saiyan strength, therefore, he could have had a good training session - regenerate - rinse and repeat. That certainly could have changed things later on!

But in any case, the building of power did seem to happen very quickly, among the lower and elite class as a whole, ie - Goku and Vegeta.
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Post by Dayspring » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:29 am

h3ndrix2005 wrote:
While Saiyan "Classes" are exclusivly Anime, I can say with confidence that Raditz stated himself as "First Class" while Kakarot was referred to as "Third Class".
No, saiyan classes are in the manga, too. And, when did Raditz ever say that?

Also, if a first class saiyan were around 4,000, their oozaru form would be 40,000. Excluding Captain Ginyu, I think that's enough to give the rest of the Ginyu Force a run for their money.
Where in the manga does Radditz say he's not a low level? The only thing mentioned is that "the other two" were stronger than him and that Goku was weaker than him. Nappa and Vegeta called him weak, too.

Side-note: Daizenshuu confirmed typical low level (Saiyan) PLs as being around 1,200 in the item description of a Saibaman set. I figured average would be 1,500 (Radditz daizenshuu mistake) to 3,500, forgetting that most of that range isn't at the over 3k mark. :oops:
A more accurate assumption would be to say that about half the race, in Oozaru are probably as strong or stronger than Dodoria.
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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:04 am

Dodoria gave Bardock a serious beat down, though.

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Post by Sun_Wukong » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:05 pm

None of the other Saiyans were pushed to the limit like Goku and Vejiita were. Goku constantly pushed his body to the limit and fought opponents that were way stronger than he was. Vejiita was already the top of his class. He didnt think he could get any stronger. When he met Goku, he knew he had to stay at the top. The only way to do that was to train harder.

You have to remember, before Freeza destroyed their Planet, the Saiyans werent used for the top missions. They were used to do the dirty work Freeza didnt want to do himself. Very rarely did the Saiyans have to train to get stronger than their opponents. I guess the real first case of that would be Bardock. He knew he had to push himself to the max in order to defeat

What am I getting at? The Sayians in the past never had an oppourtunity to get as strong as Goku or Vejiita.

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Post by Panda » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:55 pm

Powerlevel's and Saiyna classes may have a bit to do with this I think a lot more of it resides on Vegeta and Goku's relationship throughout the series.

If Goku would have grown up on Vegeta-sei then he would never have been expected to become as great as he was, He'd have been considered low-class which comes with low expectations s far as his power levels were concerned.

Goku grew up on Earth however and was constantly the strongest living being. I think in his childhood he was possibly weaker then other Saiyan children his age would have been but because of his upbringing and surroundings he is encouraged to go to the next level and continue to be the strongest.

Now Vegeta was raised to believe he should always be the strongest and to constantly fight and be the dominant one. After he moves to Earth he forces himself to constantly try and obtain levels beyond Goku's so he can possibly feel as ease with himself while Goku trained to fight off the always stronger new enemy.


EDIT: I believe if Goku hadn't grown up on Earth and wasn't always the strongest the was then neither Goku nor Vegeta would have reached the levels they did.

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Post by Dayspring » Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:41 pm

h3ndrix2005 wrote:Dodoria gave Bardock a serious beat down, though.
Not in Oozaru form, though. If Bardock transformed, he probably could have lasted a good while against Ginyu himself.
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Post by h3ndrix2005 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:20 pm

Not in Oozaru form, though. If Bardock transformed, he probably could have lasted a good while against Ginyu himself.
True; Bardock's Oozaru form would be around 100,000. But, he still would've lost to Ginyu's 120,000.

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Post by Dayspring » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:37 pm

h3ndrix2005 wrote:
Not in Oozaru form, though. If Bardock transformed, he probably could have lasted a good while against Ginyu himself.
True; Bardock's Oozaru form would be around 100,000. But, he still would've lost to Ginyu's 120,000.
That's why I said he'd only last a while. Ginyu can only reach 120,000 with much difficulty, though, so there might still be a chance now that I think about it.
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