Vegetto/Gogeta Rank

[Kakashi]

Rank them from the strongest to the weakest

I have SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ Vegetto > SSJ2 Gogeta > SSJ Gogeta ~ Base Vegetto

[hleV]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

[Kakashi]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

This is ridiculous and wrong.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I have SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ Vegetto > SSJ2 Gogeta > SSJ Gogeta ~ Base Vegetto

How about some yummy context to lay a foundation for actual discussion? Why do you rank them in that particular order? What evidence would you present as proof? What are your feelings on it?

This > that > the other thing by itself is not a thread. Surely we can come up with something better. O_o

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

This is ridiculous and wrong.

Again, why? If no one explains anything, then all we have is a conversation between arrows.


~Da Lemmy

[hleV]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

This is ridiculous and wrong.

Gotenks at best seems to be dozens of times stronger than Goten & Trunks. Super Exciting Guide has Vegetto as Goku x Vegeta in the context of Battle Powers, while also a statement that Potara fusion is more like a multiplier. So the way I interpret it, Vegetto ended up so strong as if Goku & Vegeta's BPs were multiplied. Thus, millions x millions. Thus, base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Yaaay, discussion. ^_^

For my part, I find Fusions to be particularly confusing in terms of measuring strength (which in general, is a question that DragonBall doesn't seem to want you to do directly), so I wouldn't dream of comparing the two of them on a serious level. But that won't stop others from taking a crack at it. ^_^;


~Da Lemmy

[Kamiccolo9]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

This is ridiculous and wrong.

Gotenks at best seems to be dozens of times stronger than Goten & Trunks. Super Exciting Guide has Vegetto as Goku x Vegeta in the context of Battle Powers, while also a statement that Potara fusion is more like a multiplier. So the way I interpret it, Vegetto ended up so strong as if Goku & Vegeta's BPs were multiplied. Thus, millions x millions. Thus, base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

Since SSJ3 draws out hidden power though, wouldn't SSJ3 Vegetto and Gogeta be equal? Being composed of the same parts, shouldn't they have the same amount of hidden power?

[hleV]

Since SSJ3 draws out hidden power though, wouldn't SSJ3 Vegetto and Gogeta be equal? Being composed of the same parts, shouldn't they have the same amount of hidden power?

No, because a Saiyan's hidden power is 400x base.

[Kamiccolo9]

Since SSJ3 draws out hidden power though, wouldn't SSJ3 Vegetto and Gogeta be equal? Being composed of the same parts, shouldn't they have the same amount of hidden power?

No, because a Saiyan's hidden power is 400x base.

Ah. I personally take the multiplier from the SEG instead of the quote from the Daizenshuu, but it seems you take both. Fair enough. Just wanted to hear your opinion.
What would you say about SSJ4, then? Would they be equal?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

This is ridiculous and wrong.

Not really. In Boo arc, base Goku is implied to be stronger than base Gohan, but not more than 2 times stronger. Base Goten is stated to be as strong as base Gohan in Daizenshuu, and the manga doesn't contradict it (Gohan's skill makes him superior than the kids though, along with his Rage Boost & SS2). Trunks is stated to be slightly stronger than Goten, and Vegeta was equal to Goku by the time they merged & become Vegetto (thanks to Babidi's power-up). The kids also become stronger inside the RoSaT, making their powers closer to Goku's & Vegeta's powers. And since Goten & Trunks are not very far from Goku & Vegeta, then Gotenks shouldn't be far from Gogeta, and of course, SS3 Gotenks should also not be very far from SS3 Gogeta.

As for Vegetto's power though, Rou Kaioshin told Goku that when he & Gohan had merged with the Potara, they would be able to beat Gotenks Boo without even using Super Saiyan.

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

One would say that "GokuXGohan" would be that strong because Gohan is Ultimate Gohan, but Ultimate & base are two different states, as we saw in the manga, and furthermore in the movies & video games, and furthermore, if "GokuXGohan" could go Super Saiyan, this would mean that he wouldn't be in his Ultimate state, since Ultimate Gohan can't go Super Saiyan. So, non-Ultimate base "GokuXGohan" would be able to beat Gotenks Boo. But what does Vegetto has to do with all these? Well, Vegetto should be stronger than "GokuXGohan", since not only base Vegeta is stronger than base Gohan, but he is also as strong as Goku. And since they are more similar, they should also get more power. So, base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who is not-by-much weaker than SS3 Gogeta.

So, Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

Since SSJ3 draws out hidden power though, wouldn't SSJ3 Vegetto and Gogeta be equal? Being composed of the same parts, shouldn't they have the same amount of hidden power?

If Fusion & Potara were just addition, then yes. However, we do know that Fusion makes the couple dozens of times stronger, and we also do know that Potara multiply the couples power (if they are equals) by a much bigger number. (Though I don't believe that it's literally "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP", I view it as just "Goku cross Vegeta make Vegetto".) So, Vegetto's dormant power should be much bigger than Gogeta's dormant power.

Personally, I have base Vegetto slightly weaker than Gohan Boo, which explains why Vegetto didn't revert to base after realizing how strong he was, since it would be much more humiliating & annoying for Boo to get beaten by a base Saiyan rather instead of a Super Saiyan.

[Nazi Cola]

Goku knew the risks of using the Potara, as well as the benefits, and blatantly told Vegeta that it was the "only way" to beat Gohan-Boo. Why spend eternity fused with your bitter rival, ruining both of your guys' lives, if you could demolish your foe with the Fusion Dance and regain your normal self in 30 minutes? That seems silly, even for Goku's standards (at least when he chose to not finish Fat Boo off he had a backup plan).

If Super Saiyan Gogeta is like Vegetto in that he's just "that damn powerful," like I see is a popular belief around the net, then time management shouldn't be an issue and if power somehow was, he'd have one or potentially two more transformations on top of that. Surely Goku would've taken that into account when deciding to go with the Potara over the dance.

Krillin and Piccolo picked up on the dance after seeing it demonstrated just once by Goku, so seeing as Vegeta knew of the dance by seeing it from the afterlife (presumably seeing how it could go terribly wrong), then he shouldn't be any different and having enough time before Boo attacked them to do it shouldn't have been a big issue either.

Then you have statements from Boo himself. As Gotenks-Boo, he said a fusion of Goku and Gohan wouldn't be enough to beat him, but he'd stop it anyway. Goku and Elder Kaioshin contradicted this by agreeing that said fusion would be enough, but Boo wouldn't allow them the time to perform the dance. Skip a bit ahead to Gohan-Boo, and he flatout said a fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be "no match" for him, this sentiment going completely uncontradicted unlike his earlier claim. If two parties have to be similar in power to perform the Fusion Dance, then a fusion of Goku and Ultimate Gohan would yield the same power as a fusion of Goku and Vegeta (post-Majin) seeing as Goku would be the baseline power for both; hence if one fusion would be inadequate, the other would be by default.

That's why I think Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta >| Gotenks-Boo makes sense.

[ABED]

The implication is they don't have enough time to perform the dance.

[RandomGuy96]

SS Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > SS3 Gogeta > Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SS2 Gogeta > SS2 Gotenks > SS Gogeta > SS Gotenks

Gogeta is really not the hot shit he's made out to be. Fusion is implied/stated throughout the whole saga to have consistent results among users, a result that can be predicted, showed by Goku accurately depicting the result of Gotenks by just seeing the boys' strength and seeing someone else perform the fusion. That is all the information he had to go on and he was still spot on. Buu predicted that Metamoran Gokan might beat him and that a Metamoran Goku + Vegeta fusion would be absolutely no match for him- matching the story up to this point, with escalating power ups being required to fight Buu. Additionally, Buuhan's prediction was never contradicted, and has no reason at all not to be accurate; he has much more information than Goku to go on: he's seen fusion performed successfully TWICE, has become one with such a fusion, absorbed three people who knew the technique, sensed the powers of everyone who performed the dance, and sensed the powers of Goku and Vegeta. He's not just being arrogant either; he publicly admitted to everyone earlier that there's a chance he'd lose to Gokan (as Buutenks), and openly admitted that Gohan made him look like a little turd (as Super Buu), but when Vegeta and Goku are about to merge he cares so little that he thinks to himself "it really doesn't matter if they merge", doesn't amp up his speed to stop the fusion, doesn't even look worried, and thinks of fighting Gogeta as essentially the same thing as fighting Vegeta alone. That's how weak Gogeta is to him.

And Buuhan's predicition is obvious when you think about it. The kids are really not that much weaker than their fathers; they were implied numerous times to be above Piccolo, and Goten was able to give Gohan a lot of trouble in sparring, indicating that he's nowhere near x1.5 weaker (or else it would end up like Goku vs the Ginyus). Additionally, the Daizenshuu says that Goten (doesn't specify pre or post ROSAT) has a battle power equal to Gohan (obviously talking about pre-ultimate). So the adults are really close to the kids. Gogeta can't be much stronger than Gotenks, especially not to the ridiculous extent I see some fanboys put him at (SS Gogeta > SS3 Gotenks is just about the silliest Goku wank I've ever heard in my life).

On top of all of this, we have Goku's statements. He outright said that Potara was the only way to beat Gohan-Buu, even though Buuhan was taking a slow time to reach them, Vegeta should know how to use the dance (judging by the Piccolo example from Nazi Cola's post), and dance fusing wouldn't leave them binded together forever. And he didn't just forget about fusion either; he explicitly says he remembers it inside Buu's body. Yet even there, he doesn't even think to recommend it until literally right after they remove Gohan, and revert Buu to Super Buu. It seems almost intentional that Goku never says that the dance can beat Buuhan and heavily implies it can't, leaving Buuhan's statement uncontradicted.

So Buuhan would kick Gogeta's teeth in while barley trying. And if you believe that Gokan would be similar to Vegetto (Old Kai said that Gokan would be so strong that his base could beat Buutenks), base Vegetto is probably a bit stronger than Gohan-Buu, but he still needed to go Super Saiyan to make sure he got the victory. Like in the anime. Therefore he can kick SS3 Gogeta's teeth in as well.

[Kaboom]

"Vegetto > Gogeta" is the only solid power hierarchy fact as far as I'm concerned, because we've got some guidebook clarification and what-not that Potara is a "stronger" Fusion method in general. Beyond that, I'll just paraphrase and agree with what Rocketman said in the last thread on the subject.

If Movie 12 hadn't happened, and thus Toriyama hadn't been driven to create a new and different Fusion method... does anyone seriously, truly, honestly believe that Gogeta would have appeared only to be soundly beaten by Gohan-Boo, even if he used Super Saiyan 3? I really don't think so. Some things just aren't meant to have so much "logic" applied to them.

[Nazi Cola]

The implication is they don't have enough time to perform the dance.

Are you responding to me? If so, which implication at which point? I'm a bit confused.

"Vegetto > Gogeta" is the only solid power hierarchy fact as far as I'm concerned, because we've got some guidebook clarification and what-not that Potara is a "stronger" Fusion method in general. Beyond that, I'll just paraphrase and agree with what Rocketman said in the last thread on the subject.

If Movie 12 hadn't happened, and thus Toriyama hadn't been driven to create a new and different Fusion method... does anyone seriously, truly, honestly believe that Gogeta would have appeared only to be soundly beaten by Gohan-Boo, even if he used Super Saiyan 3? I really don't think so. Some things just aren't meant to have so much "logic" applied to them.

Of course not. But Gogeta did appear in Movie 12, and Toriyama was forced to come up with something even better. Going by the what-if logic here doesn't actually negate what we were given about a hypothetical Gogeta in the manga. Movie Gogeta can be however strong one deems him to be, but he's not in the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think Movie Gogeta's any stronger than his manga counterpart. Janemba's just not all that strong; he had to resort to portals, teleportation, and a magic sword to beat SS3 Goku. He was getting beaten up hand to hand without those tricks. SS2 Gotenks would wreck Janemba.

At least, I didn't think he was at first. He was probably retconned into being stronger than Vegetto when Goku was also retconned into being stronger than Vegetto.

[Kaboom]

Movie Gogeta can be however strong one deems him to be, but he's not in the manga.

I just don't see a real need to differentiate between two different "versions" of Gogeta, really. I think that coming to extreme conclusions like "SSj3 Gogeta would get wrecked by Base Vegetto" just reeks of digging too far into things that weren't meant to be analyzed to such a degree.

To each their own though, I guess.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Movie 12 hadn't happened, and thus Toriyama hadn't been driven to create a new and different Fusion method... does anyone seriously, truly, honestly believe that Gogeta would have appeared only to be soundly beaten by Gohan-Boo, even if he used Super Saiyan 3? I really don't think so.

The Potara are stated to be superior than Fusion in the manga. Had Toriyama used Gogeta, would he have Boo absorb Gohan? We don't know how the story would go.

Some things just aren't meant to have so much "logic" applied to them.

In the anime, yes. The manga though is very consistent with power differences.

[Nazi Cola]

Movie Gogeta can be however strong one deems him to be, but he's not in the manga.

I just don't see a real need to differentiate between two different "versions" of Gogeta, really. I think that coming to extreme conclusions like "SSj3 Gogeta would get wrecked by Base Vegetto" just reeks of digging too far into things that weren't meant to be analyzed to such a degree.

To each their own though, I guess.

I don't think Base Vegetto would wreck Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta at all. But to address the actual point, I think making Gogeta unable to beat Boo while Vegetto could as only a Super Saiyan 1 works to even better extrapolate the superiority of the Potara. Sure, if Toei hadn't jumped the gun and Toriyama had put Gogeta in the manga, he likely would've made him every bit as strong as Vegetto, but that's because he's the author and can do whatever he pleases with the strength of his characters, whether we think it makes sense or not. Though since he opted to come up with something better, I don't think having both fusions of Goku and Vegeta being superior to Boo, only with one of them being more superior, would exactly be that "wow, Potara really is better than Fusion!" pop that he was going for. I just think Toei went in with the mindset that any Goku and Vegeta fusion would be boss, while Toriyama went in thinking, "They think they can make an unstoppable monster? Well, I'll show them!", and that's why I differentiate the two - because I think due to Toei's actions, Toriyama had to react his own way and trump that, possibly changing whatever vision he may have had for a potential Gogeta.

But I realize I'm not going to change your mind, so I'll agree to disagree.

[MajinVegeta]

Base Vegetto > SS3 Gogeta.

Lol xDDD ahahahah, complete BS. No way that can be true.