DBZ Movie 1 - Return My Gohan

[desirecampbell]

Couple of quick questions, I'm trying to figure out if Movie 1 happens before Raditz's arrival, or instead of it.

Q1. Does everyone already know about Gohan's "rage-power" before he uses it on Garlic Jr.?

Q2. Are Piccolo and Goku on "friendly" terms, like they had worked together before?

[Magnaboss]

No one had even known of Gohan before the movie, but it's not much of a point to bring up I guess. Goku and Piccolo are most definantly not on friendly terms, but since they have a common enemy, they team up. You even see later, before the Dead Zone opens up, that Goku and Piccolo are going to fight each other, much to Kami's dismay.

Assume each movie to be retcon to the series, since it doesn't nessecerally "fill" any gaps, moreso it takes place in it's own seperate universe (assume that anything that happens after or during the part it replaces in the TV series never actually happens)

[desirecampbell]

Well, I've always seen the movies as a 'what if' scenario.

What if Goju beat Cell durring the Cell Games? He wouldn't have died, and Gohan wouldn't have gone Super Saiyan 2. Gohan would get back to studying, and they'd probably have a party - in the park, maybe, with karyoke.
That sets up a perfect oppportunity for Movie 8.

Movies 2-4 could easily happen if Goku showed up a day early from King Kai's and whooped Nappa before anyone died.

Movie 12 would be fine if Gotenks defeated Buu when he went SSj3 the first time.


I havn't seen the other movies, but movies 5-7 would have to happen after the androids appear but without Cell causing any real damage. That'd be easy if Goku had taken his damn medicine.
Skip ahead a few years and there's time for movies 10 and 11. And I don't know when 13 would fit in, but it seems like it'd fit in fine after the Buu saga.



I'm just not sure about Movie 1, if they hadn't met Gohan yet, then it definitly happens instead of the arrivial of Radditz.

[Xyex]

I'm just not sure about Movie 1, if they hadn't met Gohan yet, then it definitly happens instead of the arrivial of Radditz.

According to the offical time-line, movie 1 occurs 1 year before Raditz arrives.

As for the other movies, my thoughts are as follows:
Movie 2 - Instead of Nappa & Vegeta
Movie 3 - Instead of the Ginyu Saga
Movie 4 - Instead of the Freeza Saga
Movie 5 - Instaed of the Garlic Jr. Saga
Movie 6 - During the 3 years of Training
Movie 7 - Alternate Time-line where the Androids were shut down by remote.
Movie 8 - Instead of Cell Games (USSJ Vegeta killed Semi-Perfect Cell)
Movie 9 - Post Cell Games (duh)
Movie 10 - Instead of Saiyaman/World Tournament
Movie 11 - Instead of Fusion Saga (Majin Vegeta's self destruct killed Buu)
Movie 12 - Same as 11.
Movie 13 - Between Kid Buu and end of Z.

[desirecampbell]

Bah! There goes all my work.

Where'd you get this, anyway?

[Sun_Wukong]

Oh god, not another "Where does the movie fit" thread.....

When will you all learn? The movies arent cannon!

[desirecampbell]

Well, obviously there're not cannon. Did you read the thread? I'm trying to figure out where they fit in by changing the canon storyline.

[lost in thought]

Oh god, not another "Where does the movie fit" thread.....

When will you all learn? The movies arent cannon!

True, and not to mention theres been at least four of these sorts of topics alone since I began posting on the board.

Where'd you get this, anyway?

You can trust in Xyex, about the validity of his timelines. He is the resident timeline guy after all, and he is pretty accurate with them.

Well, obviously there're not cannon. Did you read the thread? I'm trying to figure out where they fit in by changing the canon storyline.

Why would you want to change the story to fit them in?

[desirecampbell]

True, and not to mention theres been at least four of these sorts of topics alone since I began posting on the board.

Seriously? Arrgh! Everytime I search for a topic I don't find anything!

You can trust in Xyex, about the validity of his timelines. He is the resident timeline guy after all, and he is pretty accurate with them.

I trust him, I just would like to know where this information comes from. He did say 'official'.

Why would you want to change the story to fit them in?

It's the only way, I can see, to explain their connection with the regular storyline. It can't just be 'instead of Nappa and Vegeta comming to Earth' because then there would be no reason to wish Goku back to life, ot for him to go and train with King Kai. Most of the movies could only occur if one of the major enemies dies off quickly. Like Movie 2, that could happen if Goku was wished back to life a day earlier. Then he could be there to fight Nappa first, before anyone got killed, then the rest of the Goku/Vegeta battle could play out normaly. There would be no reason to go to Namek, and everyone would be alive. Satisfying every part of the setting in movies 2, 3, and 4.

[Dayspring]

You misunderstood Xyex's post: he said movie 1 is officially listed as "canon" through the Daizenshuu's timeline. The rest were his opinions in regards to your first post, he wasn't claiming any of the others to be official (though movie 5 was also in the chronology).

Here's my personal opinion:

Movie 1: Prior to Radditz (same year). Things we have to ignore are the fact that nobody knows about Gohan at the reunion, even though Goku got the radar from them and explained all about him...and Krillin was even peed on him. Maybe he didn't forget and was just in denial.

Movie 2: Pre-movie 3 what if scenario (see next example for explanation) that replaces the month-long trip to Namek and/or beginning of Namek saga.

Movie 3: Judging by eveybody's insanely large power levels (Gohan as strong as Bardock, Piccolo as strong as Vegeta and pre-kaioken Goku as strong as Vegeta-vs Recoom), this is a what if scenario that resulted from everybody surviving the battle of against the Saiyans (or at most only Yamcha or Tenshinhan dieing and the Earth DBs resurecting them), resulting in no Namek saga being needed. This movie's events would then take place instead of the Namek saga.

Movie 4: Post-movie 3 what if scenario. This replaces the Ginyu-SSJ arc.

Movie 5: In the three years of training for the androids' arrival. Things to ignore include the fact that Goku doesn't have perfect control over SSJ when he did already upon his return to Earth, Vegeta isn't there (which is debatle if you prefer anime to manga), Gohan hasn't aged at all since he left Namek (resulting in over a full year missing), practically nobody could sense a ki as enormous as Cooler's, yet were able to sense Freeza's with ease.

Movie 6: Post-movie 6 what if scenario. No idea how to explain this one, but it takes place near the end of the three year training.

Movie 7: Takes place in Timeline 4, where Timeline 3's (Cell's Timeline) Trunks obtained the remote control to destroy the androids in TL4 and TL3. This movie's events take place after the remote was used.

Movie 8: What if scenario taking place after either Piccolo (fused with Kami) was strong enough to destroy the cyborgs + first form Cell, Vegeta destroyed second form Cell, or Goku won the Cell Games.

Movie 9: Post-Cell Games. Things to ignore are the fact that Trunks' sword never broke, his hair was never cut for Goku's funeral, he went back in time prior to killing Cell when the narrator of the anime+manga states he was only going back to give them the news once Cell attacked him, Gohan can't control SSJ2.

Movie 10: What if scenario that possibly takes place during when everybody's training for the 25th budoukai, or instead of the tournament.

Movie 11: What if scenario that takes place the day after the budoukai, where Boo was either never released, or destroyed by Majin Vegeta's self-destructive blast.

Movie 12: What if scenario taking place after Majin Vegeta's self-destructive blast killed Buu.

Movie 13: Post-Chibi Buu. Debatable whether it can take place in canon.

[desirecampbell]

oh, okay. Just a couple of things though... (haha elipsis)

How do you know how powerful the characters are? For movie 3 you said that Goku was as strong as Vegeta (against Recoome), how do you know?

(Damn, I said 'couple' but I can only think of one. )

[Duo]

Movie 5: In the three years of training for the androids' arrival. Things to ignore include the fact that Goku doesn't have perfect control over SSJ when he did already upon his return to Earth, Vegeta isn't there (which is debatle if you prefer anime to manga), practically nobody could sense a ki as enormous as Cooler's, yet were able to sense Freeza's with ease.

Also note the fact that Gohan hasn't aged a day since the fight with Freeza, which means that whole year and half before Freeza and King Cold came to earth...disapeared?

I actually really like your list Dayspring. As opposed to Xyex just picking one possibility, you list all potentials. That is awesome!

[Dayspring]

Movie 5: In the three years of training for the androids' arrival. Things to ignore include the fact that Goku doesn't have perfect control over SSJ when he did already upon his return to Earth, Vegeta isn't there (which is debatle if you prefer anime to manga), practically nobody could sense a ki as enormous as Cooler's, yet were able to sense Freeza's with ease.

Also note the fact that Gohan hasn't aged a day since the fight with Freeza, which means that whole year and half before Freeza and King Cold came to earth...disapeared?

I actually really like your list Dayspring. As opposed to Xyex just picking one possibility, you list all potentials. That is awesome!

Movie 9 is also debatable, but at the time I wrote the post I couldn't find the reasons why. I'm going to edit that post to explain what needs to ne ignored.

desire: Vegeta's strength vs Recoom is given in the daizenshuu's PL list. Bardock's is given in the Bardock special and in his daizenshuu bio, and Vegeta's on Earth was given in the manga+anime by either Zarbon or Dodoria during the battle against Kui. Gohan, Piccolo and Goku's in movie three were all scouter readings from Tullece (in the japanese version).

[desirecampbell]

Dayspring, I like most of your ideas - but the 'replaces the Ginyu-saga' kind of answer is a total cop-out.

I think the best way to go about explaining the movies is to list all the neccessities (the facts) and then work an answer around that.

Like movie 8, we know:
1. All the saiyans can go SSj.
2. Gohan cannot go SSj2
3. Future Trunks is still around, and has long hair.
4. No Cell, no androids.

This can be explained pretty easily (that's why I picked this one ). To satisfy (1) Gohan and Goku must've gone into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. For (3) Trunks and Vegeta must've gone into the HTC (at least once). For (2) Gohan must not have beaten Cell, but for (4) Cell and the androids must either be destroyed are in hiding (and apparently of no threat). This can be solved with Goku defeating Cell in the Cell Games instead of passing it to Gohan.

But I must confess, I don't have all the answers. I've never seen Movie 9, so I can't begin to explain it.

[Dayspring]

Dayspring, I like most of your ideas - but the 'replaces the Ginyu-saga' kind of answer is a total cop-out.

I think the best way to go about explaining the movies is to list all the neccessities (the facts) and then work an answer around that.

Like movie 8, we know:
1. All the saiyans can go SSj.
2. Gohan cannot go SSj2
3. Future Trunks is still around, and has long hair.
4. No Cell, no androids.

This can be explained pretty easily (that's why I picked this one ). To satisfy (1) Gohan and Goku must've gone into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. For (3) Trunks and Vegeta must've gone into the HTC (at least once). For (2) Gohan must not have beaten Cell, but for (4) Cell and the androids must either be destroyed are in hiding (and apparently of no threat). This can be solved with Goku defeating Cell in the Cell Games instead of passing it to Gohan.

But I must confess, I don't have all the answers. I've never seen Movie 9, so I can't begin to explain it.

How is it a cop-out? I explained that movies 2-4 followed the same premise. By not needing to go to Namek, the events of movie 4 takes place instead of the Ginyu-SSJ arcs.

I explained how movie 8 could take place: while Vegeta+Trunks are en route to fight the androids (after existing the room), Goku+Gohan enter the room, and Piccolo (fused with Kami) takes care of the androids and possibly even Cell. Or Vegeta destroys Second form Cell while Goku+Gohan are in the room, or Goku wins the Cell Games. Movie 8 could even be in Timeline 4, where having no androids to assimilate, the Cell Games take place with Cell in his first form who is easily defeated by either Piccolo or any of the Saiyans (I say this because TL4 had a Cell Games w/results unknown).

[desirecampbell]

How is it a cop-out? I explained that movies 2-4 followed the same premise. By not needing to go to Namek, the events of movie 4 takes place instead of the Ginyu-SSJ arcs.

I explained how movie 8 could take place: while Vegeta+Trunks are en route to fight the androids (after existing the room), Goku+Gohan enter the room, and Piccolo (fused with Kami) takes care of the androids and possibly even Cell. Or Vegeta destroys Second form Cell while Goku+Gohan are in the room, or Goku wins the Cell Games. Movie 8 could even be in Timeline 4, where having no androids to assimilate, the Cell Games take place with Cell in his first form who is easily defeated by either Piccolo or any of the Saiyans (I say this because TL4 had a Cell Games w/results unknown).

Just saying that 'it rplaces this event' doesn't make sense. I didn't see that they never went to namek (I thought you ment they just went home before Ginyu showed up or something ).

And the 4 different timelines kind of confused me

[Dominator]

Looking at Movie 12, which is only possible if Majin Buu died, it seems that Baby would have defeated Goku in GT. Buu merging with Uub was just to buy time, with no Uub, Goku would have wasted a lot of time getting to planet Plant and Oozaru-Baby would have killed him. Then again, with no Uub Goku would be likely to spend training with his sons, so GT wouldn't possible, unless he went up the Tenka at the time of Pilaf getting up there.

Man I've gone completely off-topic O_o.

[desirecampbell]

Looking at Movie 12, which is only possible if Majin Buu died, it seems that Baby would have defeated Goku in GT. Buu merging with Uub was just to buy time, with no Uub, Goku would have wasted a lot of time getting to planet Plant and Oozaru-Baby would have killed him. Then again, with no Uub Goku would be likely to spend training with his sons, so GT wouldn't possible, unless he went up the Tenka at the time of Pilaf getting up there.

Man I've gone completely off-topic O_o.

Not off-topic at all
Just not sure where that went. Bebi? Movie 12?

[Dayspring]

How is it a cop-out? I explained that movies 2-4 followed the same premise. By not needing to go to Namek, the events of movie 4 takes place instead of the Ginyu-SSJ arcs.

I explained how movie 8 could take place: while Vegeta+Trunks are en route to fight the androids (after existing the room), Goku+Gohan enter the room, and Piccolo (fused with Kami) takes care of the androids and possibly even Cell. Or Vegeta destroys Second form Cell while Goku+Gohan are in the room, or Goku wins the Cell Games. Movie 8 could even be in Timeline 4, where having no androids to assimilate, the Cell Games take place with Cell in his first form who is easily defeated by either Piccolo or any of the Saiyans (I say this because TL4 had a Cell Games w/results unknown).

Just saying that 'it rplaces this event' doesn't make sense. I didn't see that they never went to namek (I thought you ment they just went home before Ginyu showed up or something ).

And the 4 different timelines kind of confused me

Timelines confuse everybody because of the paradoxes they created, even when explaining the paradoxes in the daizenshuu (instead of saying there was a Cell Games in TL4, they should have said movie 7 took place! Where did the Mirai Cell in that timeline come from, and how did he get a perfect body? ).

Timeline 1: The manga+anime's timeline.

Timeline 2: Trunks from the Trunks special's timeline. He goes into TL1.

Timeline 3: Cell's timeline. The Trunks from this reality goes back into TL4's past and returns with a remote control to destroy the Androids. Having no androids to assimilate, Cell kills Trunks and uses his time maching to go back in time--into TL1.

Timeline 4: Trunks from TL3 comes here and helps Goku + co destroy the androids by finding the blueprints for the remote control detonator and using it on the androids. He takes that remote back with him to his own timeline. Cell somehow hosts a Cell Games with results unknown, since Trunks isn't present, which is a major error because this Cell didn't come from a fifth timeline and had no androids to assimilate. Because the Cell Games' results are unknown, anything after the Cell Games are also unknown.

If we ignore this Cell Games inconsistancy, and take into effect that each timeline isn't perfectly identicle to the others (ie: manga timeline's androids are stronger+nicer than Trunks' timeline, and has android 16 in it), then it's more than possible that Gero's computer in TL4 perfected androids #13-15 instead of Cell, and the events of movie 7 would have taken place before Trunks returned to TL3. Not having needed to train in the room of spirit and time, these androids would have given Goku+co a run for their money.

That's why I consider movie 13 to be part of the mainstream canon: with these minor timeline differences, it's more than plausible that Tapion's seal had weaker magic binding it, or that Hildegarn was a weaker monster too and could therefore be killed in his first form (especially since Trunks' timeline seems to be significantly weaker than TL1). Trunks and Gohan could have had the emotional resolve to kill Tapion in a no-option scenario, or one of the androids could have killed him (instead of asking Trunks to kill him, Tapion absorbs Hildegarn and goes annoy an android. Goodbye Tapion+Hildegarn).

[Xyex]

To answer your questions, I got movie 1 from the offical Time-line. The others were my own ideas. Also, the movies do not fit, even if you modify the existing universe to match. Sure, some will, but not all. They're just stories that occur in a 'time-frame' where the characters are a certain strength.