Buu and Genki Dama

[Duo]

That thing Goku used against Cooler...was no Genki Dama. And it's a movie, so it really has no standard for "making sense". Who knows, maybe it's the same thing Gogeta used against Janemba.

Personally, I think the Genki Dama isn't based on who's good and who's evil. Heck, if that were so then Gohan, Kuririn, Piccolo, and Son wouldn't have been so scared of getting sucked into it when it was brought down on Freeza. Gohan's boucing it back was a one-time thing that Toriyama-sensei probably just pulled out of his butt for drama's sake. However, he also had a "Pure Heart" so maybe one must be totally pure hearted to be able to bounce a smaller one back.

I honestly don't think that Chi can really decide who is good and evil though...that wouldn't make sense.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

That thing Goku used against Cooler...was no Genki Dama. And it's a movie, so it really has no standard for "making sense". Who knows, maybe it's the same thing Gogeta used against Janemba.

Wasn't what Gogeta used against Janemba the 'Soul Punisher' technique from Budokai 3?

[Conan the SSJ]

That thing Goku used against Cooler...was no Genki Dama. And it's a movie, so it really has no standard for "making sense". Who knows, maybe it's the same thing Gogeta used against Janemba.

Yes, sir, makes me hate the fact that Janemba was left out of Budokai 3 even more, considering I love replaying classic battles in Dragon Arena where appropriate finishing moves are available (can't wait for Piccolo Daimao on that "Greatest Hits" release, can somebody say Kid Goku's Super Dragon Fist!). Regarding the Genki-dama, it's been done precisely 10 times if you count the anime and movie universes. Here's a nice list I've made up:

1: Goku used it against Kaio's training cube - Succeeded
2: Goku, Krillin, and Gohan used it against Vegeta - Failed
3: Goku used it against Dr. Willow - Succeeded
4: Goku used it against Turles - Failed
5: Goku used it again against Turles - Succeeded
6: Goku used it against Slugg - Succeeded
7: Goku used it against Freeza - Failed
8: Goku modifiable used it against Super Android 13 - Succeeded
9: Goku used it against Chibi Buu - Succeeded
10: Goku used it against Xi Xing Long - Succeeded

[Bejiita]

the one against Freeza seemed to just damage his tail and make him very angry.

Freeza already lost his tail by then. Krillin cut it.

I always figured it was like this. As long as a single intact atom of Buu remained he could regenerate from that. The Spirit Bomb simply atomized him.

...........................
Question: In the RoSaT (Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber), didn't Gotenks and Piccolo do this exact same by destroying his pieces?

Actually, Freeza's tail was back normal when he transformed the third time.

And no, Gotenks and Piccolo didn't do the exact same thing as the Genki Dama did to Buu. Gotenks' ghost blows buu to pieces. They then started zapping the remaining pieces with standard ki attacks, some kind of steam or smoke was being released and Buu was formed again. This smoke was already rising before they starting zapping.

The strength of the Genki Dama didn't produce this smoke because it didn't burn him, it vapourised him.

[mrkitano]

Well, that kind of rambled... to summarize: does anyone know of anything said about the Spirit Bomb and it's relation to 'goodness' or 'evil'?

I'll be telling that for sure in a day or two, but as far as I remember, the Genki Dama was deflected by Gohan during the battle with Vegeta. Yajirobe accidentally drawn Vegeta's attention to the Genki Dama Kuririn was holding, and as a consequence, Vegeta was able to jump over it, so the bomb went in Gohan's direction. I think even Kaioh himself was sure Gohan was going to be killed, but Son Goku reached him telepathically and told him that he could deflect the bomb, since he had a pure heart. And so he did, and it bounced back straight into Vegeta, hitting him bulls'eye.

This is the only reference to it I can recall right now.[/url]

[desirecampbell]

Well, that kind of rambled... to summarize: does anyone know of anything said about the Spirit Bomb and it's relation to 'goodness' or 'evil'?

I'll be telling that for sure in a day or two, but as far as I remember, the Genki Dama was deflected by Gohan during the battle with Vegeta. Yajirobe accidentally drawn Vegeta's attention to the Genki Dama Kuririn was holding, and as a consequence, Vegeta was able to jump over it, so the bomb went in Gohan's direction. I think even Kaioh himself was sure Gohan was going to be killed, but Son Goku reached him telepathically and told him that he could deflect the bomb, since he had a pure heart. And so he did, and it bounced back straight into Vegeta, hitting him bulls'eye.

This is the only reference to it I can recall right now.[/url]

Sweet. I don't mean to sound like a hardass, but DaizEX isn't a place where we can just 'say' things without backing them up. And if there's a reference, it has to be accounted for.

[mrkitano]

Sweet. I don't mean to sound like a hardass, but DaizEX isn't a place where we can just 'say' things without backing them up. And if there's a reference, it has to be accounted for.

Okay, volume 20 of the manga. Accounted for. I thought I was mentioning something anyone could easily check for themselves... even looking at the corresponding TV episode.

I'll add this; still about the said chapter. Goku tells Gohan to "sense Evil" and deflect the ball to Vegeta.
If everything goes according to plan, tomorrow I'll even upload scans of the sequence. Although it'll be in French, heh. But don't worry, I'll translate the words. Or if there is any doubt, Babelfish the hell out of it...

Although I appreciate your concern to not come across as a "hardass", I think however the response was not exactly good-spirited. This is just my impression. Please forgive me if it's not true.
Also, saying things like "DaizEX isn't a place like [...]" or "DaizEX isn't a place for [...]", or "You have no idea what DaizEX is" or anything along these lines sounds highly innappropriate and unflattering to the board itself.
Don't take this the wrong way, it's only my opinion.

[Tapion]

What he used against Metal Coola, I really have no idea. It kinda looks like a really tiny Genki-Dama, but we never actually saw him gathering any energy. Not sure! Guess that one's up to speculation.

It didn't look much like a Genki Dama....plus I doubt he'd have a few seconds to gather something like that. I kinda prefer it to be a small energy blast. It would work more

I think you're right. He never gathered the energy.

[desirecampbell]

Sweet. I don't mean to sound like a hardass, but DaizEX isn't a place where we can just 'say' things without backing them up. And if there's a reference, it has to be accounted for.

Okay, volume 20 of the manga. Accounted for. I thought I was mentioning something anyone could easily check for themselves... even looking at the corresponding TV episode.

I'll add this; still about the said chapter. Goku tells Gohan to "sense Evil" and deflect the ball to Vegeta.
If everything goes according to plan, tomorrow I'll even upload scans of the sequence. Although it'll be in French, heh. But don't worry, I'll translate the words. Or if there is any doubt, Babelfish the hell out of it...

Although I appreciate your concern to not come across as a "hardass", I think however the response was not exactly good-spirited. This is just my impression. Please forgive me if it's not true.
Also, saying things like "DaizEX isn't a place like [...]" or "DaizEX isn't a place for [...]", or "You have no idea what DaizEX is" or anything along these lines sounds highly innappropriate and unflattering to the board itself.
Don't take this the wrong way, it's only my opinion.

I feel like a total asshole now. I didn't mean it like that.

Anyway, I really do appreciate the reference - it's something we can know for sure about the attack.

Goddamnit I feel like a jerk.

[mrkitano]

Bah. You're exaggerating now. I'll show the scans anyway as I promised!

[Bejiita]

I would have thought people would have remembered that about the Genki Dama.

I'll save you the hassle mrkitano...

[mrkitano]

Heh, thanks.

Anyway, as a curiosity, here's the French page (this is from the current re-translation, it's a bit more wordy and it keeps the onomatopeia, with only a small translation beside it. Also, this version doesn't mention the term "chi"):



Literally: "Resend it to him, Gohan! That energy is on our side!
"He who doesn't have vice (evil) is capable of resending it!"

[desirecampbell]

"Gohan!!! You don't have an evil 'chi'!!! You can bounce it back!!!!!"

"Resend it to him, Gohan! That energy is on our side! He who doesn't have vice (evil) is capable of resending it!"

These arn't that different, both mention 'evil' and 'energy' - but the English text connects the two directly. "The energy is on our side... he who doesn't have evil" implies that the Spirit Bomb is made of non-evil energy. But it's not as direct as the Engliah text.

It's not much of a difference, but enough to warrent further study.

I wonder if anyone has some Japanese text-translations to compare this to.

MrKinato: does the french text use the term "chi" or "ki" or another specific term for energy? I mean, when Goku says "energy" here, does he mean "chi"?





Frankly I like the french version better because it doesn't use eleven exclamation points. But to compensaite, they have red circles.


-edit-
Holy crap! English = 23 "!", French = 8 "!".

[mrkitano]

Heh, no, the red circles were added by me after I scanned the page.

The french version doesn't mention the word "chi" or "ki". It mentions "energy" or "power". It would be interesting though to check if the Japanese version uses the term "chi" as well.

The only volume I have in Japanese is the last one, 42. And I haven't noticed the use of the word "chi" (I can read hiragana and katakana, and in the Dragonball manga, all of the Kanji have "furigana" to point how the Kanji read. Furigana are small hiragana or katakana characters next to the Kanji) I also have two anime comics, for movie 3 and movie 12 (used to have 3, which was the Baadack TV special one). But I'll have to check again to see if "CHI" comes up.

Anyway, if someone has the Japanese version, it would be nice to compare all three versions.

[tarsonis]

So in the English version it looks like they changed that sound effect to "HSSS". But what's 'BATS' supposed to mean in the French one?

[mrkitano]

Well, the Japanese onomatopeia reads "BACHI" if I read correctly, or possibly "BATSU". I think it was an attempt to simply translate the onomatopeia literally.

[Dominator]

Here are my thoughts on the Genki-Dama, as long as no-one has already posted this...

Anyway, I believe there are two forms of Genki-Dama; one that is formed from nature, and one that is formed from the hearts of men (I'm not counting the "solar" Genki-Dama used in Movie 4, despite it being official).

Vegeta:
The Genki-Dama was small and made from the trees, oceans etc. (a nature one basically). Plus, to me, Saiyans aren't entirely evil, and simply fight for their causes, even if sadistaclly.

Freeza:
Made from the nature of Namek's neighbouring planets, so it was likely to have been a mixed bag. Also, I don't think nature Genki-Damas are as powerful as those made from the spirit of beings. Though how Freeza lost his tail is beyond me (debris perhaps?).

Slug:
A freakin' miracle.

Buu:
To me, Majin Buu didn't seem totally evil (except for Super Buu). The Genki-Dama used against, which was made from nature and every being on Earth, coupled by Goku's blast of Ki, crushed Buu until not even a particle remained (like one of the above posters said, sorry I forgot your name ^^;, it destroyed him on an atomic level).

Syn Shenron:
If my memory serves me correctly, this guy was meant to literally reak of evil (the stench rising from him in the final episode?). The Genki-Dama was formed using trillions and trillions and trillions of beings from all across the universe, and it's possible no nature was used, and unlike Buu who I presumed was crushed by the Genki-Dama, the good spirits of the people that helped form this Genki-Dama totally vapourised him.

Cell:
Yes I know the Genki-Dama wasn't used against him, but I think it wouldn't have done any good anywyay. Seeing as how the Ki of Goku and his friends is in him, and Freeza and Piccolo's being the only really evil Ki inside him, Goku's Ki and that of the others would have dialuted (I think that's the word) the opposite Ki.

[mrkitano]

That's a good analysis on the nature of the Genki Dama. Never seen it that way, but it's interesting.

The Genki-Dama was small and made from the trees, oceans etc. (a nature one basically). Plus, to me, Saiyans aren't entirely evil, and simply fight for their causes, even if sadistaclly.

About this one, I forgot to mention that Gokuu's Genki Dama was reduced to half of the energy gathered. When Gokuu had it ready, Vegeta anticipated Gokuu's attack with a mouth blast, and the gathered energy got dispersed.

page 120 volume 20 (Gokuu to Kuririn): "i let go half [of the Genki Dama's energy]... but seeing his [Vegeta's] condition, it should be enough..."
So, could it be that if the Genki Dama were full, it would've killed Vegeta?

[Bejiita]

In the Japanese version of the anime, Goku tells Gohan to deflect it back, he says 'you have no evil in you so you can deflect it'.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

The french version doesn't mention the word "chi" or "ki". It mentions "energy" or "power". It would be interesting though to check if the Japanese version uses the term "chi" as well.

The Japanese version uses "ki." The English version goes by the more commonly know (to Americans, at least) Chinese chi.

Since you have volume 42, check where Boo makes smoke to try to hide from Vegetto (which is useless, because Vegetto can sense him). I know Vegetto talks about ki there. He tells Boo that he can sense his ki, so such a trick won't work on him (or something like that).