SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
SuperSaiyan2
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:14 am
Contact:

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by SuperSaiyan2 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:40 pm

Kakashi wrote:I see them as close rivals, however I have heard people saying Gohan beat him at half power so he is much stronger which is laughable IMO. What do you think?
I agree. Gohan got a rage boost that in my opinion, brought him right back up to his full power. He was definitely not at half power when he overwhelmed Super Perfect Cell.

Kakashi
Banned
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:10 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:56 pm

SuperSaiyan2 wrote:
Kakashi wrote:I see them as close rivals, however I have heard people saying Gohan beat him at half power so he is much stronger which is laughable IMO. What do you think?
I agree. Gohan got a rage boost that in my opinion, brought him right back up to his full power. He was definitely not at half power when he overwhelmed Super Perfect Cell.
Obviously. The Anime and Daizenshuu say the same making it fact

Dragon Ball Daisuki
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:35 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:32 pm

Plus, uhh. You know. If Gohan was at "half power"... wouldn't that just put him back at SSJ level? What with SSJ2 being a 2x multiplier and all that (as per SEG's wacky math formulas)?

It wouldn't make very much sense if Cell was still around that level after the big-time power up. Fudge the numbers too much the other way, and there wouldn't have been much of a struggle. So the only thing that makes sense to me is that Gohan lost power, but not THAT much power. Cell would have had to be pretty close to Gohan's full power, at any rate. Oof, battle powers give me a headache now and then!
For yer health!

Kakashi
Banned
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:10 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:12 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:Plus, uhh. You know. If Gohan was at "half power"... wouldn't that just put him back at SSJ level? What with SSJ2 being a 2x multiplier and all that (as per SEG's wacky math formulas)?

It wouldn't make very much sense if Cell was still around that level after the big-time power up. Fudge the numbers too much the other way, and there wouldn't have been much of a struggle. So the only thing that makes sense to me is that Gohan lost power, but not THAT much power. Cell would have had to be pretty close to Gohan's full power, at any rate. Oof, battle powers give me a headache now and then!
SSjin 2 is not 2x SSjin

Dragon Ball Daisuki
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:35 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:14 pm

Hmm. What makes you say that?
For yer health!

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3299
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:05 am

Kakashi wrote:
SuperSaiyan2 wrote:Gohan got a rage boost that in my opinion, brought him right back up to his full power. He was definitely not at half power when he overwhelmed Super Perfect Cell.
Obviously. The Anime and Daizenshuu say the same making it fact
Even though I agree with SuperSaiyan2, I wouldn't say "fact", if anything is a good evidence to back up an opinion.
Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:Hmm. What makes you say that?
I think he was referring to the rage boost that should make Gohan even stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 was supposed to be.

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by freezamite » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:22 am

Gohan had a rage boost that transformed him into a SSJ2, but other than that, there wasn't any extra rage boost as far as I understand it. He was at half his power when he defeated Cell, and he did that by attacking him with an ultra-concentrated attack while he was off-guard and not even trying to kill Gohan.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3299
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:26 pm

We say "rage boost", but it's rather "gain power from anger", which Gohan did in a few stances, stated by Cell, before changing to Super Saiyan 2.

User avatar
Godo
I Live Here
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:25 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Godo » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:14 pm

freezamite wrote:Gohan had a rage boost that transformed him into a SSJ2, but other than that, there wasn't any extra rage boost as far as I understand it. He was at half his power when he defeated Cell, and he did that by attacking him with an ultra-concentrated attack while he was off-guard and not even trying to kill Gohan.
I'd say that if Cell continuously fired a Kamehameha without changing it's strength and also never decreasing it's strength, while continuously goading Gohan, it is safe to say that he definitely intended to kill Gohan. Even though he wanted to drag it out to see Gohan lose all hope.

Zantetsuken
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:29 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Zantetsuken » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:15 pm

Godo wrote:
freezamite wrote:Gohan had a rage boost that transformed him into a SSJ2, but other than that, there wasn't any extra rage boost as far as I understand it. He was at half his power when he defeated Cell, and he did that by attacking him with an ultra-concentrated attack while he was off-guard and not even trying to kill Gohan.
I'd say that if Cell continuously fired a Kamehameha without changing it's strength and also never decreasing it's strength, while continuously goading Gohan, it is safe to say that he definitely intended to kill Gohan. Even though he wanted to drag it out to see Gohan lose all hope.
Fair arguement. :thumbup:

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by freezamite » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:20 pm

Godo wrote:
freezamite wrote:Gohan had a rage boost that transformed him into a SSJ2, but other than that, there wasn't any extra rage boost as far as I understand it. He was at half his power when he defeated Cell, and he did that by attacking him with an ultra-concentrated attack while he was off-guard and not even trying to kill Gohan.
I'd say that if Cell continuously fired a Kamehameha without changing it's strength and also never decreasing it's strength, while continuously goading Gohan, it is safe to say that he definitely intended to kill Gohan. Even though he wanted to drag it out to see Gohan lose all hope.
Of course Cell would have killed Gohan at the end, but at that point he wasn't even trying. I wouldn't say he was even trying to left him out of energy because in the manga he just goes from "this is nothing" to "now I'll kill you" and then it's when Vegeta enters on the scene.

Since Cell wasn't even looking, and Gohan fired an ultra-concentrated KameHame unlike anyone ever seen on the series, it's impossible to approach SSJ2 Cell power based on that. I think that he was at the same level of Gohan SSJ2 and this is why he could harm him with that energyblast he launches at Vegeta.

User avatar
Godo
I Live Here
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:25 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Godo » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:27 pm

freezamite wrote: Since Cell wasn't even looking, and Gohan fired an ultra-concentrated KameHame unlike anyone ever seen on the series, it's impossible to approach SSJ2 Cell power based on that. I think that he was at the same level of Gohan SSJ2 and this is why he could harm him with that energyblast he launches at Vegeta.
Well, I believe to be able to destroy an enemy of the same powerlevel with a blast, you'd have to return a blast much stronger.
An example of this would be Vegeta surviving Goku's KKx4 Kamehameha in a (relatively) good shape.
For Gohan with only 50% of his power remaining (including all the power he spent trying to keep up with Cell) to throw such a ki blast and completely destroying Cell, it must mean that Gohan's 100% power was much superior to Cell's.
That, or Gohan had much greater reserves than Cell, leaving him ultimately the victor in an even fight.

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by freezamite » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Godo wrote:
freezamite wrote: Since Cell wasn't even looking, and Gohan fired an ultra-concentrated KameHame unlike anyone ever seen on the series, it's impossible to approach SSJ2 Cell power based on that. I think that he was at the same level of Gohan SSJ2 and this is why he could harm him with that energyblast he launches at Vegeta.
Well, I believe to be able to destroy an enemy of the same powerlevel with a blast, you'd have to return a blast much stronger.
An example of this would be Vegeta surviving Goku's KKx4 Kamehameha in a (relatively) good shape.
For Gohan with only 50% of his power remaining (including all the power he spent trying to keep up with Cell) to throw such a ki blast and completely destroying Cell, it must mean that Gohan's 100% power was much superior to Cell's.
That, or Gohan had much greater reserves than Cell, leaving him ultimately the victor in an even fight.
But blasts have a concentrated amount of energy that allows to hit and kill someone much stronger. Goku's KKx4 Kamehame was an exception in that the blast loosed strength at every millisecond/second since it was fired, so when it impacted Vegeta it was weaker than when it was firstly fired.

Gohan only fired a really concentrated blast against a Cell that wasn't going for the kill, or in other words, Cell was firing the KameHame at the same level of strength Gohan had at that point.
Gohan burns all that 50% of stamina/power in that concrete moment where he gives it all he has. At that point, that KameHame could easily have 4 times the strength of the one that fires it (50% Gohan) making it impossible for Cell to tank the hit.

I'm not saying that Gohan couldn't be stronger than Cell, only that there's nothing that indicates us that Cell was weaker than Gohan because of how he was defeated.

Regards!

User avatar
Godo
I Live Here
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:25 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Godo » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:29 am

freezamite wrote: But blasts have a concentrated amount of energy that allows to hit and kill someone much stronger.
Agreed.
freezamite wrote: Goku's KKx4 Kamehame was an exception in that the blast loosed strength at every millisecond/second since it was fired, so when it impacted Vegeta it was weaker than when it was firstly fired.
There is nothing in the manga that implies that the Kamehameha was getting weaker, though.
freezamite wrote: Gohan burns all that 50% of stamina/power in that concrete moment where he gives it all he has. At that point, that KameHame could easily have 4 times the strength of the one that fires it (50% Gohan) making it impossible for Cell to tank the hit.
That was my point, yes. To completely destroy one opponent (as in Cell disintegrated) one has to shoot a blast strong enough for the opponent not being able to tank it. Two equal opponents could tank each other's blasts.
freezamite wrote: I'm not saying that Gohan couldn't be stronger than Cell, only that there's nothing that indicates us that Cell was weaker than Gohan because of how he was defeated.
Fair enough.

User avatar
Draken
Banned
Posts: 1608
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:01 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Draken » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:01 pm

Kakashi wrote:
SuperSaiyan2 wrote:
Kakashi wrote:I see them as close rivals, however I have heard people saying Gohan beat him at half power so he is much stronger which is laughable IMO. What do you think?
I agree. Gohan got a rage boost that in my opinion, brought him right back up to his full power. He was definitely not at half power when he overwhelmed Super Perfect Cell.
Obviously. The Anime and Daizenshuu say the same making it fact
Uhm, no.... Anime + Daizenshuu saying something doesn't make it fact.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17016
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:55 pm

I always thought the reason the fight was so close was because Gohan's arm was broken and he lacked belief in himself. Had he not had his arm broken then fight would have gone much differently. I also thought it was weird that Cell got a power up after blowing himself up. I get that he came back from near death, but unless he had time to heal or got a senzu or something, how did his power come back?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Zantetsuken
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:29 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Zantetsuken » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:56 pm

Draken wrote:Uhm, no.... Anime + Daizenshuu saying something doesn't make it fact.
I would take it as fact in the presence of no information or fan theories.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10262
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:58 pm

ABED wrote:I always thought the reason the fight was so close was because Gohan's arm was broken and he lacked belief in himself. Had he not had his arm broken then fight would have gone much differently. I also thought it was weird that Cell got a power up after blowing himself up. I get that he came back from near death, but unless he had time to heal or got a senzu or something, how did his power come back?
He received a zenkai, just like the Saiyans did in the Freeza Arc, he has Piccolo's cells, allowing him to heal. Apparently, the amount of power he received from the zenkai was able to more than make up for the energy he would have lost regenerating.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17016
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:02 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
ABED wrote:I always thought the reason the fight was so close was because Gohan's arm was broken and he lacked belief in himself. Had he not had his arm broken then fight would have gone much differently. I also thought it was weird that Cell got a power up after blowing himself up. I get that he came back from near death, but unless he had time to heal or got a senzu or something, how did his power come back?
He received a zenkai, just like the Saiyans did in the Freeza Arc, he has Piccolo's cells, allowing him to heal. Apparently, the amount of power he received from the zenkai was able to more than make up for the energy he would have lost regenerating.
I get his cellular makeup but it makes no sense. The regeneration would consume power. I'm glad you added the "apparently" because that's what it appears to be. I'm simply saying it doesn't make sense.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Godo
I Live Here
Posts: 3318
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:25 am

Re: SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

Post by Godo » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Just pure speculation: Goku was carrying a Senzu bean in his pocket which flew out together with bits and pieces of Cell. The nucleus came in close proximity of the bean, recognizing it and creating a small mouth that ate it.
It even said "yum" before regenerating Cell's body.

But yes, in all honesty I agree with that the whole situation doesn't make sense at all. Especially if we regard that for regeneration to occur, there must be enough energy for it to be possible. In other words, the nucleus itself should have enough power for one Perfect Cell. Whilst this has happened, Cell gets his Zenkai. But then we have to assume that the nucleus is the main part of Cell's power, not #17 and #18.

But what makes the least sense for me, is that Perfect Cell's makeup, which was completely dependent on #17 and #18's reactors as well as bodies, doesn't apply when Cell regenerates. This is confusing, because if the only thing the nucleus needs is simply information or DNA from #17 and #18, this could be given via the computer itself, since it had the information already. But yet it doesn't apply here at all.
Another possibility would be that Cell transforms after a certain amount of power intake, such as he did in his first form. If this was the case, couldn't Cell have gotten hold of Trunks or the other fighters á la Dr. Gero/Android 19 and transformed after that?
Or if Cell had the ability to multi-Zenkai himself like Goku did on his way to Namek, then he wouldn't need the androids at all!

So in conclusion, it doesn't make sense at all.

Post Reply