SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you know that for a fact, as someone who has looked through each chapter, or are you just assuming it?

I've observed the auras up until the Trunks vs Cell fight, and the aura is always white for Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan Grade 3 (except when flying very fast or power-up intensely), but it's always yellow for Super Saiyan Grade 2. From what I've seen so far from Super Saiyan Full Power, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3, SSFP is also always white (except blah blah), and SS2 & SS3 is always yellow with yellow sparks. I was also told that Boo arc Gohan's aura is yellow only against Kibito, and when he charges the Kamehameha against Boo's Ball.

In any case, it wouldn't appear that coloring an aura's outline to keep transformations distinct was their modus operandi.

Why is that? The yellow aura when powering-up & flying appears in everyone, it's obviously not part of the SS traits. Unlike the standing aura, which is a Super Saiyan trait.

[Fionordequester]

I was also told that Boo arc Gohan's aura is yellow only against Kibito, and when he charges the Kamehameha against Boo's Ball.

So basically, it's possible that Gohan wasn't able to tap into his full potential easily, but he WAS able to do it in short bursts, like when blasting Buu's ball? I could buy that. Or perhaps you're saying that yellow outlining isn't NECESSARILY an indicator of SSJ2, but usually is when it's consistent and lasts for more than a single panel or so? I don't like that explanation as much, but I can see it.

That said, how does SSJ2 Kid Gohan look? Mind posting the chapters with him in it, so we can see how consistent the yellow is?

[Saiga]

Sounds to me that the full colour manga doesn't make it as cut and dry as some have said. Especially with Grade 2 & Grade 3 being oddly coloured (yellow for Grade 2 but back to white for Grade 3?).

I guess Chozenshuu 4 never changed Dabra's Daizenshuu 7 bio when it was reprinted?

[Fionordequester]

I was also told that Boo arc Gohan's aura is yellow only against Kibito, and when he charges the Kamehameha against Boo's Ball.

Of course, then there's this...or does that fall under "yada yada yada" as well?

[TheGmGoken]

Ok I'm lost. What does Gohan being a SSJ or Ssj2 against Dabura had to do with Gohan(KID) vs Cell(Super Perfect)

[Fionordequester]

Ok I'm lost. What does Gohan being a SSJ or Ssj2 against Dabura had to do with Gohan(KID) vs Cell(Super Perfect)

Absolutely nothing. We just felt like talking about something else. That's not against the rules, is it?

[Son_Gohan]

Do you know that for a fact, as someone who has looked through each chapter, or are you just assuming it?

I've observed the auras up until the Trunks vs Cell fight, and the aura is always white for Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan Grade 3 (except when flying very fast or power-up intensely), but it's always yellow for Super Saiyan Grade 2. From what I've seen so far from Super Saiyan Full Power, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3, SSFP is also always white (except blah blah), and SS2 & SS3 is always yellow with yellow sparks. I was also told that Boo arc Gohan's aura is yellow only against Kibito, and when he charges the Kamehameha against Boo's Ball.

In any case, it wouldn't appear that coloring an aura's outline to keep transformations distinct was their modus operandi.

Why is that? The yellow aura when powering-up & flying appears in everyone, it's obviously not part of the SS traits. Unlike the standing aura, which is a Super Saiyan trait.

Those exceptions carry far more weight than you’re willing to give credit for. If it’s your claim that the colorists made it this way so it could act to distinguish what form they are using then it wouldn’t matter if they’re flying, standing, or powering-up so long as they’re in the same form. If all forms are demonstrated to be given this trait in their auras then… why is there still an argument? It’s been contradicted. Trying to make special-case exemptions for something that is a generalization to begin with only makes it appear as if you're desperate for evidence.

[Kaboom]

I'm thinking it's more akin to the lightning bolts, where it's often used as a special effect for other things but is still also used consistently as a sign of one thing in particular. If the yellow represents a more "intense" aura, but Super Saiyan 2 always has such an aura, then the consistent yellow could be taken as a key sign of SSJ2.

[Fionordequester]

I'm thinking it's more akin to the lightning bolts, where it's often used as a special effect for other things but is still also used consistently as a sign of one thing in particular. If the yellow represents a more "intense" aura, but Super Saiyan 2 always has such an aura, then the consistent yellow could be taken as a key sign of SSJ2.

Sounds reasonable. And if I really have to, I could probably accept Gohan being SSJ1, while occasionally tapping into SSJ2 power to, say, blast Buu's ball (it just seems unlikely to me that he was TOTALLY unable to access at least SOME of it, you know?). I mean, Dabura doesn't have to be EXACTLY as strong as Perfect Cell (maybe just around Cell's level when he first powered up against SSJ1 Gohan rather than his full complete power), and while Gohan was clearly frightened of Majin Buu, that could've just been because Majin Buu exhibited, in Gohan's eyes, power like what Super Perfect Cell had, rather than power beyond even an SSJ2. And considering that SSJ2 Gohan barely fought off SPC even as a kid...facing that kind of foe while being weakened over the years would, indeed, be worthy of fear, even if Dabura was only an SSJ1 tier foe.

Again though, I would REALLY like to see a good amount of the SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell fight before I go along with that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Those exceptions carry far more weight than you’re willing to give credit for. If it’s your claim that the colorists made it this way so it could act to distinguish what form they are using then it wouldn’t matter if they’re flying, standing, or powering-up so long as they’re in the same form. If all forms are demonstrated to be given this trait in their auras then… why is there still an argument? It’s been contradicted. Trying to make special-case exemptions for something that is a generalization to begin with only makes it appear as if you're desperate for evidence.

Yellow is the color of ki. The base Saiyan's ki is always yellow, their ki attacks have yellow color (except for special techniques like Kaio-ken), and their aura when flying & powering-up is yellow, but they never have an aura when just standing. Then they turn Super Saiyan. Their appearance changes, and they get a white aura. However, the ki attacks are still yellow, and the aura still get yellow when they are flying & powering-up, because flying (Bukujutsu) & powering-up (ki control) are techniques, not traits of the form. So, I fail to understand how the aura color is not consistent when it only changes color when a technique is used. It's like saying that the Saiyan hair are inconsistent because they are black normally but change to blond when they transform, and a normal person can have blond hair without being a Super Saiyan, so the golden hair is not a trait.

[Fionordequester]

Those exceptions carry far more weight than you’re willing to give credit for. If it’s your claim that the colorists made it this way so it could act to distinguish what form they are using then it wouldn’t matter if they’re flying, standing, or powering-up so long as they’re in the same form. If all forms are demonstrated to be given this trait in their auras then… why is there still an argument? It’s been contradicted. Trying to make special-case exemptions for something that is a generalization to begin with only makes it appear as if you're desperate for evidence.

Yellow is the color of ki. The base Saiyan's ki is always yellow, their ki attacks have yellow color (except for special techniques like Kaio-ken), and their aura when flying & powering-up is yellow, but they never have an aura when just standing. Then they turn Super Saiyan. Their appearance changes, and they get a white aura. However, the ki attacks are still yellow, and the aura still get yellow when they are flying & powering-up, because flying (Bukujutsu) & powering-up (ki control) are techniques, not traits of the form. So, I fail to understand how the aura color is not consistent when it only changes color when a technique is used. It's like saying that the Saiyan hair are inconsistent because they are black normally but change to blond when they transform, and a normal person can have blond hair without being a Super Saiyan, so the golden hair is not a trait.

Then who's to say that the yellow around the SSJ2 and SSJ3 auras are just a consequence of the characters typically putting out all the energy they can rather than clear cut indicators of what state they're in? It's the same thing as when Vegetto had lightning around him for one panel even though he was only in SSJ1. He wasn't in a stated that normally caused that, but he was so absurdly strong that it happened anyways, meaning, to me, that the sparks mean "whoa, look at this! There's a strong guy here!" rather than "this is either SSJ2 or SSJ3 you idiots".

Again though, it'd be really helpful if I could check that stuff out for myself. Otherwise, I'm not sure how far we'll actually get. You may very well be right, but I can't make any conclusions till I see it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Vegetto's aura happened for one moment, when he powered-up. Even if the aura is yellow in SSG2, SS2, and SS3 because of the intense energy, my point still stands because this shows that Super Saiyan isn't producing such intense energy, hence the white aura when standing. The colored manga clearly shows that the yellow aura with sparks is a trait of Super Saiyan 2, and even the manga supports it.

[KentalSSJ6]

Gonna take a while getting used to blue Kibito.

[Son_Gohan]

Those exceptions carry far more weight than you’re willing to give credit for. If it’s your claim that the colorists made it this way so it could act to distinguish what form they are using then it wouldn’t matter if they’re flying, standing, or powering-up so long as they’re in the same form. If all forms are demonstrated to be given this trait in their auras then… why is there still an argument? It’s been contradicted. Trying to make special-case exemptions for something that is a generalization to begin with only makes it appear as if you're desperate for evidence.

Yellow is the color of ki. The base Saiyan's ki is always yellow, their ki attacks have yellow color (except for special techniques like Kaio-ken), and their aura when flying & powering-up is yellow, but they never have an aura when just standing. Then they turn Super Saiyan. Their appearance changes, and they get a white aura. However, the ki attacks are still yellow, and the aura still get yellow when they are flying & powering-up, because flying (Bukujutsu) & powering-up (ki control) are techniques, not traits of the form. So, I fail to understand how the aura color is not consistent when it only changes color when a technique is used. It's like saying that the Saiyan hair are inconsistent because they are black normally but change to blond when they transform, and a normal person can have blond hair without being a Super Saiyan, so the golden hair is not a trait.

If the color yellow is applied universally even for characters that aren’t Super Saiyans, that wouldn’t suggest the people who worked on it gave a shit about keeping things separate as much as you’d lead on. When all this conflicting evidence exists, you cannot prove this was the intention of the colorists and not merely your subjective interpretation. The fact of the matter is the material does not state any of this on its own, and there’s more than one interpretation that can be applied to it; that doesn’t have to be yours.

The validity of this source was always in question to begin with. The point of the full color manga release is simply to add color, the choices of the colorists wouldn’t need to have any bearing on a debate like this which exceeds its purpose. To equate it with holding as much weight as a guidebook that does have the role of providing such information is absurd. You can continue arguing about it as much as you want, but it’s really just grasping at straws.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If the color yellow is applied universally even for characters that aren’t Super Saiyans, that wouldn’t suggest the people who worked on it gave a shit about keeping things separate as much as you’d lead on. When all this conflicting evidence exists, you cannot prove this was the intention of the colorists and not merely your subjective interpretation. The fact of the matter is the material does not state any of this on its own, and there’s more than one interpretation that can be applied to it; that doesn’t have to be yours.

I don't understand your logic. You call it inconsistent when it changes... consistently?

[Fionordequester]

If the color yellow is applied universally even for characters that aren’t Super Saiyans, that wouldn’t suggest the people who worked on it gave a shit about keeping things separate as much as you’d lead on. When all this conflicting evidence exists, you cannot prove this was the intention of the colorists and not merely your subjective interpretation. The fact of the matter is the material does not state any of this on its own, and there’s more than one interpretation that can be applied to it; that doesn’t have to be yours.

I don't understand your logic. You call it inconsistent when it changes... consistently?

I think the point is, you've got the rules misunderstood. Yellow doesn't signify SSJ2 or SSJ3, it signify's something else entirely. Again though, I would need to actually see a good, hefty chunk of the colored manga before I can be convinced, like that fight with SSJ2 Gohan and Cell.

[Hugo Boss]

Ok I'm lost. What does Gohan being a SSJ or Ssj2 against Dabura had to do with Gohan(KID) vs Cell(Super Perfect)

Because Dabura is about as strong as Cell or stronger according to Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ok I'm lost. What does Gohan being a SSJ or Ssj2 against Dabura had to do with Gohan(KID) vs Cell(Super Perfect)

Because Dabura is about as strong as Cell or stronger according to Goku.

To be fair, "almost as strong as Cell" covers a lot of ground.

[KentalSSJ6]

Ok I'm lost. What does Gohan being a SSJ or Ssj2 against Dabura had to do with Gohan(KID) vs Cell(Super Perfect)

Because Dabura is about as strong as Cell or stronger according to Goku.

To be fair, "almost as strong as Cell" covers a lot of ground.

Pretty much. It ranges from nearly being killed by SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta to causing a SSJ Grade 4 Goku to give up against him. Thats not even counting the power Cell received from the Zenkai after his self destruction (I thought they didn't apply if it was self inflicted).

[Hugo Boss]

Because Dabura is about as strong as Cell or stronger according to Goku.

To be fair, "almost as strong as Cell" covers a lot of ground.

Pretty much. It ranges from nearly being killed by SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta to causing a SSJ Grade 4 Goku to give up against him. Thats not even counting the power Cell received from the Zenkai after his self destruction (I thought they didn't apply if it was self inflicted).

Goku was expecting Dabura to be as strong as Cell. I don't think he was referring to a portion of his power. Even in Daizenshuu it is said Dabura has the same battle power as Cell. Gohan himself pretty much knows how strong is Cell since he was the one who defeated him. Even after listening to Goku's statement he choose to fight as a Super Saiyan, or it would make more sense to use Super Saiyan 2? That's a difficult question.