The Son of Katatz's evil side

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The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Mr. Piccolo » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:26 pm

How did the Son of Katatz develop his evil side before splitting into Kami and Piccolo Daimao? In the anime, I recall a narration about how the Son of Katatz was poisoned by the evil of humans that he experienced growing up. In the background you saw pictures of war and other strife while the figure of the Son of Katatz grows.

Unfortunately, I do not own the relevant manga chapters for this story, so I am wondering whether this anime explanation for how the Son of Katatz developed his evil side is canon or just filler.

For my own part, it seems like a pretty logical explanation. It makes one wonder what sort of things the Son of Katatz was up to before he split into Kami and Piccolo Daimao.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Godo » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:37 pm

In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:52 pm

Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by rereboy » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:03 pm

Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Mr. Piccolo » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:13 pm

rereboy wrote:In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.
Ah, I see. So there is some basis for the segment in the anime I referenced in my original post. I like the idea that the Son of Katatz was influenced by evil humans that he met. It is an interesting angle and makes me wish there was more backstory on this issue.

Since the Son of Katatz was a martial artist, the anime’s inclusion of scenes of warfare may be appropriate. Perhaps the SofK became involved in some human conflicts prior to his division?
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Godo » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:37 pm

rereboy wrote:
Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
In the manga, Kaio mentions that he was probably influenced by the bad humans he met along the way (when they are discussing how to get to Namek and whatnot). So, there is a reason suggested in the manga.
My bad, I meant no other reasons other than he was influenced by the bad humans het met on his journey.

Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:15 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.
I think Gohan has a dark-side :lol: .

Anyways I agree with this. I see no reason why the Nameless Namekian could't have any evil in him. Everyone does. He could have been 99% good but he had 1% bad in him. I like the anime explanation but the manga kinda bluntly say he had an evil side. Just like everyone else. Also wasn't Namek full of warriors like Nail? I would't be shocked if some had evil.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Draken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:21 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Godo wrote:In the manga they just mention it. We don't get to see any reasons, though.
I imagine that he was like pretty much everyone else that didn't have an entirely pure heart. Most people have a dark side, and the nameless Namek couldn't become God until he got rid of it. I don't think it takes anything special to have a dark side; it just happens naturally unless you're just super innocent like Goku and his kids.
I think Gohan has a dark-side :lol: .

Anyways I agree with this. I see no reason why the Nameless Namekian could't have any evil in him. Everyone does. He could have been 99% good but he had 1% bad in him. I like the anime explanation but the manga kinda bluntly say he had an evil side. Just like everyone else. Also wasn't Namek full of warriors like Nail? I would't be shocked if some had evil.
Everyone? Apparently not Goku :lol:

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:29 am

Draken wrote:
Everyone? Apparently not Goku :lol:
Really?

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I think Goku got a evil side. It's just so much less than his pure side that it doesn't matter.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Draken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Oh sorry shoulda been more specific. Kid Goku.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Blade » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:03 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Draken wrote:
Everyone? Apparently not Goku :lol:
Really?

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I think Goku got a evil side. It's just so much less than his pure side that it doesn't matter.

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I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.

Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:20 pm

Blade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.

Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as Machiavellian :lol:
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Draken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:00 pm

Well as DB describes it, one can be pure evil.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:24 pm

Godo wrote:Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.
Well, Katatz's son wasn't stupid like Goku. My guess is this: He experienced racism from humans since he was different, and saw that many humans were selfish & greedy, which made him develop some grudge to those kind of people. However, he also met good humans, and as a Namekian, his good side was much greater. When he then purified himself to become the Kami of Earth, and thus Piccolo Daimao was born pure evil, wanting to take over the planet because humans are stupid, weak, and useless. So, he decided to terrorize the world that created him.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Blade » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:24 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Blade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.

Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as Machiavellian :lol:
Perhaps not in a Game-of-Thrones, high political subterfuge sense, but his actions in the Cell arc in regard to Gohan and the Buu arc in regard to Gotenks mystifies more-or-less everyone. His decision to not to attempt to kill Majin Buu at Super Saiyan 3, thus condemning the human race to death via Buu's act of genocide, purely out of his selfish desire to 'pass on the baton', was anything but a straight forward and innocent piece of reasoning.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Godo » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:39 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Godo wrote:Yet I never really understood why he would get evil by that, other than him endorsing some of the bad values as true.
We see a lot of characters, including Goku, being in contact with much evil but not developing an evil side. And Goku was considered a candidate for the Kami position, and this would go for Dende as well.
Well, Katatz's son wasn't stupid like Goku. My guess is this: He experienced racism from humans since he was different, and saw that many humans were selfish & greedy, which made him develop some grudge to those kind of people. However, he also met good humans, and as a Namekian, his good side was much greater. When he then purified himself to become the Kami of Earth, and thus Piccolo Daimao was born pure evil, wanting to take over the planet because humans are stupid, weak, and useless. So, he decided to terrorize the world that created him.
Wow, I hadn't thought of it like that. This explains Piccolo's view on humans in general!

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Blade wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Blade wrote: I dunno, I always read the 'pure of heart' as being more of a reflection of Goku's innocence and earnestness, in that he has no hidden or illicit motivates or dark interests in subterfuge. By the same token, I always assumed it possible for one to be pure of heart but also carry out evil actions so long as they are an earnest reflection on ones soul and intentions.

Besides, we all know that by the Cell arc most of that seems to go out of the window in Goku's case - as he starts to become a little bit more of a Machiavellian and complex character whose true intentions are not always straight forward or disclosed up front.
Huh. That's the first time I've ever seen Goku, of all people, described as Machiavellian :lol:
Perhaps not in a Game-of-Thrones, high political subterfuge sense, but his actions in the Cell arc in regard to Gohan and the Buu arc in regard to Gotenks mystifies more-or-less everyone. His decision to not to attempt to kill Majin Buu at Super Saiyan 3, thus condemning the human race to death via Buu's act of genocide, purely out of his selfish desire to 'pass on the baton', was anything but a straight forward and innocent piece of reasoning.
Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own :thumbup:
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Blade » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:55 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own :thumbup:
I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.
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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by rereboy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:26 pm

Blade wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own :thumbup:
I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.
Machiavellian is a term that originated from a real person named Niccolò Machiavelli who happened to be an author that lived in the 15th century. The term originated from his beliefs and way of thinking, that had its basis on logic and strategy mainly in the fields of politics and state. However, its a way of thinking deprived of consciousness and feelings and, it could be argued, even evil. Machiavelli, for example, in his works, considers inviting all of one's enemies for dinner in the name of peace and then poisoning them fatally as a beneficial strategy for one's advancement and one full of merit.

So, no, Goku is not machiavellian.

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Re: The Son of Katatz's evil side

Post by Blade » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:06 am

rereboy wrote:
Blade wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote: Well, my description for that is "stupid and callous," but, to each his own :thumbup:
I agree with that sentiment too, but I think 'machiavellian' is still a good fit. Oxford English defines it as 'the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct', which ignoring the statecraft part, seems about right to me.
Machiavellian is a term that originated from a real person named Niccolò Machiavelli who happened to be an author that lived in the 15th century. The term originated from his beliefs and way of thinking, that had its basis on logic and strategy mainly in the fields of politics and state. However, its a way of thinking deprived of consciousness and feelings and, it could be argued, even evil. Machiavelli, for example, in his works, considers inviting all of one's enemies for dinner in the name of peace and then poisoning them fatally as a beneficial strategy for one's advancement and one full of merit.

So, no, Goku is not Machiavellian.
Machiavellian

adjective

cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics

Cunning? In the Buu arc - yes. Scheming? Again, yes. Unscrupulous - in the self-serving 'I want to pass on the baton for my own sense of self fulfillment at the risk of the human race' kind of way, perhaps. Politically? Perhaps not.

Either way, I stand by my point. Goku is somewhat machiavellian later on in the story.
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