Regarding the afterlife...

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Regarding the afterlife...

Post by *PINHEAD* » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:03 am

'Twas a long time since I've started my own thread, but I guess it's about time I've done so. I just so happened to catch a few seconds of the Dragon Ball Z dub on Cartoon Network, an episode during the Saiyan story arc while the characters are all training. Son Goku tells that little helper to tell Baba to tell Roshi to tell the others (oh, gee) to not wish him back until a year or so.

So this reminded me of all the confusion of death in Dragon Ball. I mean, initially it seems as though the body is needed to be reunited with the dead in order to train, which pretty much defeats the purpose of death by reuniting soul and body. Then later, during the Buu story arc, that old geezer "switches" life/death with Goku. So the whole notion of death in Dragon Ball is pretty strange.

Well, my memory's pretty foggy, and I haven't seen or read Dragon Ball in a long time (except that brief glimpse mentioned earlier), but I still remember the concept of death in DB being weird.

So, what are your opinions/explanations on it?
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Post by lost in thought » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:28 am

Well, what people (in the real world) associate with death in all of its various forms is all literally general speculation. We don't know what death is really like, so we base it on something good, and peaceful, and even some as an empty place void of things, while others just the loss of existance entirely.

Since we don't know what death is preconcieved notions can't be validated, and as a result conceptual death can have a lot of artistic liscense in story.

Now with that said, it's obvious that Toriyama-sensei takes the more holsum, religious approach, and mashes it together with a lot of sillyness. As a result of this, he had to build upon the small smattering of ideas in preconcieved notions and make a veritable world with consequences for your actions in life, and an actually envisioned result for those actions. Even after death you have a set of actions much like life, to live by, as a result.
If we look at normal deaths, they become a spirit, their soul is disjounted from their bodies much like any religion that believes such, and apparently they're fanciful and free. Sooo like the "any action leads to an equal or greater reaction" theory (Butterfly Effect, Causality) we have a result that is dependant on what you've done in life; in religion you go to live at the side of god with all the angels, and the sugarplum fairies and what-not, but for Goku he retains his body instead of being subjugated to a life of aetherial-ness.
I see Goku retaining his body as something like the "Angels" from religion, and lore, where even though Son' doesn't have wings he is gifted with the keeping of his body, unlike 90% of the people throughout the galaxy. Similarly, I see villians retaining their bodies as a form of punishment like religion relates too, where people are forced to suffer through everything hell has to offer.

Now as far as going with Kaiou, and Rou Kaioushin, I think they retain their bodies because they're kick ass dudes. They're like the big cheese of your galaxy, and yet still not high on the 'big cheese' latter. They retain their bodies, because, well, if they did actually and aetherially kick the bucket, they wouldn't be able to do their job. Heh.

Anyway, yeah, thats my take... [This take brought to you by the letter "A", for Agnostic, which is for my belief structure! Down on Sesame Street~!]

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Post by Duo » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:21 am

It seems that those who aren't evil get sent to "Heaven" whatever that may be like (the Fillers take a stab at this...but for some reason I prefer it not being explored.)

And the evil...seem to be put through mind and soul cleansing machines, in which they are returned to the state that a soul would be like for a newborn, and then reincarnated, I guess as another chance to get into Heaven...or perhaps the most evil ones are sent to hell forever. Both are kind of implied at different points...

Great martial artists of good nature get to keep their bodies, and only them. The Fillers give the bad guys bodies, but this doesn't make any sense at all, so I would totally disregard that. Why would they give the evil the capability of incredible destruction? Heck, they'd be able to push Lord Enma aside like a babies toy.

As for how you keep your body...I don't know what to think. Son is required to have his body when he journey's to Kaio-Sama's, and yet...Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Yamcha all go to Kaio-Sama's while their bodies are still frozen or something...while Chaozu and various others later on have their bodies totally destroyed. I really have no idea what to think about all of this so...I have no conclusion.

I suppose those are just my observations. Take them home and chew it.

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Post by Xyex » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:08 pm

And the evil...seem to be put through mind and soul cleansing machines, in which they are returned to the state that a soul would be like for a newborn, and then reincarnated, I guess as another chance to get into Heaven...or perhaps the most evil ones are sent to hell forever. Both are kind of implied at different points...
I'd say those that are 'bad' (Pilaf for example) would be cleansed, those that are 'evil' (like Freeza) probably have too much evil in them to be cleansed, and so they're locked away in Hell. This is kind of thrown out the window with Kid Buu/Uub... All I can think of there is that Kid Buu wasn't good or evil, he just was. No sense of good evil, just the urge to destroy. Thus, nothing to cleanse and there-by able to be reincarnated into a person, which gives him the ability to be good.
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Post by VegettoEX » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:52 pm

Xyex wrote:I'd say those that are 'bad' (Pilaf for example) would be cleansed, those that are 'evil' (like Freeza) probably have too much evil in them to be cleansed, and so they're locked away in Hell. This is kind of thrown out the window with Kid Buu/Uub... All I can think of there is that Kid Buu wasn't good or evil, he just was. No sense of good evil, just the urge to destroy. Thus, nothing to cleanse and there-by able to be reincarnated into a person, which gives him the ability to be good.
I like to bring in the idea that man-made (or magician-made, or what have you) beings are up in the air in terms of having a "soul" or can even be allowed to follow the same rules governing human (or "soul"-filled-beings) ethics and morals (and therefore treatment in the afterlife).

It was something I heard come up with regards to Buffy -- are vampires (such as Spike) actually being unethical in terms of VAMPIRE ethics when they DON'T kill and feed? The laws that govern the demon world tell them that it's OK and normal (not to mention life-sustaining) to kill and murder. Well, if one of those types goes against the grain... are they being un-ethical? They're not human, so why should they be expected to follow human (and therefore man-made) laws?

I like to apply the same thing to Cell and Buu. Both of them were technically "created" by someone else. Cell's far more self-aware than Buu seems to be, so you can go either way with him.

But yeah...!
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:07 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I like to apply the same thing to Cell and Buu. Both of them were technically "created" by someone else. Cell's far more self-aware than Buu seems to be, so you can go either way with him.

But yeah...!
For all "evil" androids I agree with you since they were only following their programming. As it was, #16's ability to disregard his programming was because of his "failure." That's why I think Cell was neither good nor evil up to the point where he achieved perfect form: he was only following his programming. Past that, however, he made choices to kill people needlessly, so I think he deserved to go to Hell.

As for people like Freeza and the Saiyans, evil. The Saiyans' brutality could have been exempt from how they act, since they're designed to be fighters and all, but they could have stopped short of killing people.

Buu I disagree with entirely. He's pure evil, stated as such by the Kaioshins and even the narrator. As such: DOOMED to go to Hell. I agree with you when he was Majin Buu, but once he split into Mr Buu and skinny Buu, the two were destined for different afterlifes: Heaven and Hell respectively.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:59 pm

Xyex wrote:I'd say those that are 'bad' (Pilaf for example) would be cleansed, those that are 'evil' (like Freeza) probably have too much evil in them to be cleansed, and so they're locked away in Hell. This is kind of thrown out the window with Kid Buu/Uub... All I can think of there is that Kid Buu wasn't good or evil, he just was. No sense of good evil, just the urge to destroy. Thus, nothing to cleanse and there-by able to be reincarnated into a person, which gives him the ability to be good.
Is it possible that in the case of Buu, he was an exception because of Goku's wish right before he finished him off with the Genki-dama? I know that it's probably a silly notion, but perhaps it affected something in a supernatural way? Who knows? Maybe Enma and others in the afterlife heard his request and respected Goku and all his good deeds enough to comply with his request?
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:34 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Xyex wrote:I'd say those that are 'bad' (Pilaf for example) would be cleansed, those that are 'evil' (like Freeza) probably have too much evil in them to be cleansed, and so they're locked away in Hell. This is kind of thrown out the window with Kid Buu/Uub... All I can think of there is that Kid Buu wasn't good or evil, he just was. No sense of good evil, just the urge to destroy. Thus, nothing to cleanse and there-by able to be reincarnated into a person, which gives him the ability to be good.
Is it possible that in the case of Buu, he was an exception because of Goku's wish right before he finished him off with the Genki-dama? I know that it's probably a silly notion, but perhaps it affected something in a supernatural way? Who knows? Maybe Enma and others in the afterlife heard his request and respected Goku and all his good deeds enough to comply with his request?
My thought was that, rather than follow regular procedure and sift through billions of souls before even reaching Buu's, Enma put him at the top of the list and judged him right away as per Goku's request, AND made sure he got reincarnated specifically as a human so that Goku could fight him one day. Otherwise it would have taken forever for Buu to reincarnate AND would wind up anywhere in the universe. In other words, Goku'd never even meet him, let alone fight him, if not for what Enma did for him.

I always figured that, since Hell was never shown in the manga, that Hell was just a holding pen while souls waited to reincarnate. Or, at most, it'd be something similar to movie 12 for the extreme souls like Freeza and Buu's, and then they'd just go wait in Hell with souls that weren't as evil, like Xyex's example of Pilaf.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:06 pm

Well it's also possible that even souls that are as evil as Freeza's or Cell's are destined to be re-incarnated, but like your idea Dayspring, there's a "waiting list". It may even be that there is a set time period of waiting in the afterlife before your turn comes up to be cleansed and reborn. So Hell could also be like doing jail time and then eventually coming up for "parole" so to speak. It would make sense especially for the anime when we see the past villains still hanging around down there. So that scene with Paikuhan and Goku going to stop Cell and Freeza causing trouble is basically like quelling a prison riot. :lol:
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:37 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Well it's also possible that even souls that are as evil as Freeza's or Cell's are destined to be re-incarnated, but like your idea Dayspring, there's a "waiting list". It may even be that there is a set time period of waiting in the afterlife before your turn comes up to be cleansed and reborn. So Hell could also be like doing jail time and then eventually coming up for "parole" so to speak. It would make sense especially for the anime when we see the past villains still hanging around down there. So that scene with Paikuhan and Goku going to stop Cell and Freeza causing trouble is basically like quelling a prison riot. :lol:
Pretty much. The only thing that didn't add up is where they got their bodies from. I always figured evil dead people were souls -clouds- in order to make sure Enma doesn't end up with a soul stronger than him, and that those destined for Heaven get to keep their soul under special cercumstances.
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Post by Chaos Saiyajin » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:44 pm

Love the waiting list idea, Dayspring. What I've wondered is, do the souls going to heaven reincarnate as well? If so, we could be seeing Tenshinhan, Choazu, Yamcha, and Krillin again one day. Maybe not as Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu (Probably Nahnihsnet, Nillirk, Ahcmay, and Uzoahc :lol: ) but it'd be great to see them as other people...I'd laugh if Enma made Yamcha into a Saiyajin :lol:
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:08 pm

I think souls in Heaven get the choice to, but don't bother since they'd be in paradise, and since reincarnation means no memory of your past life.
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Post by Xyex » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:13 pm

Ya, the waiting list is an idea I've had too. As for those in Hell having bodies, well, it's never stated that just because you HAVE a body you're as strong as you were when alive. For all we know Hell has a supression effect reducing everyone evil's power to like, 2. Hmm... actually that's a good idea to work into my next fic....
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:23 pm

Xyex wrote:Ya, the waiting list is an idea I've had too. As for those in Hell having bodies, well, it's never stated that just because you HAVE a body you're as strong as you were when alive. For all we know Hell has a supression effect reducing everyone evil's power to like, 2. Hmm... actually that's a good idea to work into my next fic....
True. A theory I had about that was that they only have their spiritual energy. An example would be Ginyu in Goku's body: most of Goku's strength was spiritual, otherwise he'd only have a PL of 23,000. My guess is otherwise everybody's just a soul-cloud, and why Enma went to go train under Kaio: so that he could handle evil people who had some sort of spiritual training.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:33 pm

Here's another theory, though it's pretty iffy. Perhaps souls like Freeza are so inherently evil that they aren't even ready to have their bodies seperated from their souls? Like they're "mega" impure in other words.
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Post by desirecampbell » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:43 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Here's another theory, though it's pretty iffy. Perhaps souls like Freeza are so inherently evil that they aren't even ready to have their bodies seperated from their souls? Like they're "mega" impure in other words.
Maybe it takes time for their evilness to seep out of them. The more evil you are, the longer it takes.

But that srews up the whole Buu reincarnated immediatly thing. Maybe it's just as simple as Yemma decided they get their bodies and hasn't got around to re-incarnating them yet. Red-tape and what-have-you.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:58 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:Here's another theory, though it's pretty iffy. Perhaps souls like Freeza are so inherently evil that they aren't even ready to have their bodies seperated from their souls? Like they're "mega" impure in other words.
Maybe it takes time for their evilness to seep out of them. The more evil you are, the longer it takes.

But that srews up the whole Buu reincarnated immediatly thing.
Oh darn that's right..... :( Oh well, I did say it was an "iffy theory". :)
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Post by The S » Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:51 pm

Like what has been stated, nobody knows for sure what the afterlife is like, and, although there are similarities, it is vastly different in different religions.

It's entirely possible that certain souls are too evil to go through the washing machine and whatnot (case in point: Enmadaiou having to actually fight Raditz before he could send him to Hell). It's very well possible that if these souls are reincarnated, regardless of how much purging they go through, they may still be evil as ever when reborn. So they're held in a prison until advancements in Hell's technology (XD) can change that.

As for Boo, it's possible that Shenlong was the one that made him into the good Oob. After all, he went out of his way to take Son Gokuu with him at the end of GT. And Son Gokuu had to have learned the Ryuken somehow. I know I'm taking points from filler, but it's as good of an explanation as any. Perhaps Shenlong is more powerful when it comes to reincarnation than even the great Enma. Of course, there's always the idea that perhaps Boo never did have a soul as we know it, and when Son Gokuu wished him good, some other force gave him a soul, and a good one at that.

In any case, the dead villains returning for revenge are amongst my favorite in filler, so I wouldn't care how they explain it.
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Post by Xyex » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:35 am

You know, that not having a soul thing gave me an idea. Going with my earlier theroy of the really evil people not being reincarnatable. That applies to souls and those who HAVE been incarnated before. If Buu didn't have soul, there would be technically nothing to cleanse. Just an essance that Yemma was able to make into a new (and there for clean) soul.
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Post by Victator Supreme » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:01 am

I like to apply the same thing to Cell and Buu. Both of them were technically "created" by someone else. Cell's far more self-aware than Buu seems to be, so you can go either way with him.
But isn't Cell a biological lifeform? He is not an artficial creation like Buu, or Androids #19 and #16. So wouldn't that mean he has a soul?

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