How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by sekzee » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Considering that other things in the DB universe contain massive amounts of energy and we have no indication of it being detectable or measurable, like the Sun, then it is entirely possible for them to have some sort of "organic" energy reactor that does not produce a "ki signal".

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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Bussani » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:00 am

I think their Infinite Energy Reactors are S² Organs (warning: Neon Genesis Evangelion spoilers). They could harness energy from some kind of subspace.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Herms » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:16 am

Kaboom wrote:Yeah, I remember her saying something like "they're still mostly organic" and/or "they're based on human bodies," but the idea of their POWER being somehow organic-based is new and confusing.
Well, Bulma stresses that it's precisely because 17 and 18 are organic that Cell is able to absorb them (contrast this with what happens when he tries to absorb 16). And presumably Cell is able to power up by absorbing them because he is able to...well, absorb their power. Meaning presumably he absorbs their power source. So the idea that the source of 17 and 18's power is organic was right there all along, even if it wasn't quite highlighted and underscored too much. If 17 and 18's power source was something akin to (for instance) that metal gizmo in Tony Stark's chest, then Cell would presumably have had as much trouble absorbing them as he did with 16.

Personally, I've always been a little confused as to what exactly Cell gains from the androids. 17 and 18 have infinite energy of course, meaning they never run out of energy or feel fatigue. So Cell absorbs them and...does not have infinite energy, can potentially run out of energy, and can feel fatigue. So it certainly doesn't seem like he's getting their infinite energy, but if not that, then what? If he's not absorbing their infinite energy reactors in some way, then why does he power up more by absorbing them than he does any random Earthling?
Especially in the way that it can't be sensed like the mechanical-model Androids' artificial power, while Cell's organic power CAN be sensed. What makes the 17 and 18 different from the other Androids but also different from Cell?
You could just say that part of their organic modification resulted in their ki taking a slightly unique form that Goku and co. can't sense. Perhaps similar to whatever unique characteristics make Beerus and SSG Goku's ki unable to be sensed by regular people in BoG. I mean, obviously 17 and 18 have ki. They fire ki blasts. When 19 and 20 shows up, Gohan says that they must not have ki because they're androids, but he's obviously wrong. 19 and 20 use ki attacks too, and even suck up other people's ki to use as their own. They either have ki or something so similar that we might as well just call it ki. It's just a different kind of ki, like the "high quality" godly ki in BoG.

Cell simply doesn't have that kind of ki, the same way he doesn't have those little red orbs in his palm that can suck ki. For whatever reason, Gero/Gero's computer didn't design him that way. It probably has to do with the specific techniques used to create him than with some simple organic/inorganic split. 17 and 18 were made by some wacky process that organically modified regular people into super people (and, apparently, gave them a lifetime supply of special untraceable ki), whereas Cell was cobbled together from the cells of really strong guys. So 17 and 18 have "organically modified" ki while Cell has "cobbled together from various strong guys" ki. The latter happens to be traceable, the former happens to not be. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably just because all the component people who went into Cell had traceable ki, and for fake scientific reasons it was impossible or just more trouble than it was worth to modify it into untraceable ki.
I also remembered that 17 and 18 are supposedly un-aging and immortal, with one of the guidebooks even labeling 18 as such. What causes THAT? Are that and their power the result of some sort of genetic engineering Gero did?
I'm not sure if they're ever described as "immortal", but 18's Daizenshuu 7 bio does say she doesn't age. Which I guess amounts to the same thing, assuming she doesn't meet a violent death or come down with a disease or something.

Anyway, I don't think genetic engineering would factor into it, since 17 and 18 weren't built from scratch like Cell. Again, they've been modified from regular people into super people. One way to think about it might be that while Goku and co. performed training to modify their bodies into the form they wanted, Gero used artificial means to modify 17 and 18's bodies into similar super-powered bodies. So 17 and 18 are "artificial" super-people not in the sense that they're super-powered robots like 16, or have really obvious mechanical parts grafted on like 20, but rather in the sense that their organic, flesh-and-blood bodies have been made super-powerful through artificial means.

Part of that modification process also made them un-aging, so perhaps Gero artificially induced in them the same change that keeps Kame-sennin alive for so long (whatever the heck that is). Actually, maybe Tao Pai Pai's a better example, since he's actually still looking pretty youthful for a guy closing in on 300 years. Anyway, I guess you could consider 17 and 18 "artificial sennin" in that sense.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Bussani » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:26 am

Herms wrote:You could just say that part of their organic modification resulted in their ki taking a slightly unique form that Goku and co. can't sense. Perhaps similar to whatever unique characteristics make Beerus and SSG Goku's ki unable to be sensed by regular people in BoG. I mean, obviously 17 and 18 have ki. They fire ki blasts. When 19 and 20 shows up, Gohan says that they must not have ki because they're androids, but he's obviously wrong. 19 and 20 use ki attacks too, and even suck up other people's ki to use as their own. They either have ki or something so similar that we might as well just call it ki. It's just a different kind of ki, like the "high quality" godly ki in BoG.
I always thought #17 and #18's "ki blasts" were formed from another kind of energy. I probably wouldn't have thought otherwise if not for the Godly Ki introduced in Battle of Gods, but that's an interesting way of looking at it.

As for #19 and #20, I just figured they converted ki into some more traditional form of energy. I mean, it's not hard; if you used ki to turn a turbine, you could convert it straight into electricity. You could probably power a solar generator with a Taiyoken, too.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Saiga » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:50 am

I would think Bussani's view makes a lot more sense, because they even have a different form of flight (one powered by anti-gravitational devices) than Bukujutsu, and I believe the guidebooks say this flight is because they can't use Bukujutsu due to not having ki.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:10 am

Herms wrote:Personally, I've always been a little confused as to what exactly Cell gains from the androids. 17 and 18 have infinite energy of course, meaning they never run out of energy or feel fatigue. So Cell absorbs them and...does not have infinite energy, can potentially run out of energy, and can feel fatigue. So it certainly doesn't seem like he's getting their infinite energy, but if not that, then what? If he's not absorbing their infinite energy reactors in some way, then why does he power up more by absorbing them than he does any random Earthling?
I personally like the theory mentioned somewhere on this forum that 17 and 18's generators aren't actually used to give Cell any power. His transformations and the power they hold are actually his own natural power. The robits just provide the catalyst for the transformations via their power source that allows him to keep maintaining his new forms. Kinda like a house with three rooms full of computers. All the computing power in there is Cell's, but each robit is a generator that allows him to use another room...
Saiga wrote:I would think Bussani's view makes a lot more sense, because they even have a different form of flight (one powered by anti-gravitational devices) than Bukujutsu, and I believe the guidebooks say this flight is because they can't use Bukujutsu due to not having ki.
Do note, that method of flight is not for 17 and 18, only for the fully artificial models. Gero may have developed this method before he ever started work on the infinite energy engines so as not to waste their "ki" and just continued to use it in the artificial models with infinite energy because he was comfortable with that design choice.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Herms » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:45 am

Bussani wrote:As for #19 and #20, I just figured they converted ki into some more traditional form of energy. I mean, it's not hard; if you used ki to turn a turbine, you could convert it straight into electricity. You could probably power a solar generator with a Taiyoken, too.
That's certainly a possibility. My main objection is that the energy 19 and 20 use looks identical to what Goku et al use. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. But I admit, maybe Toriyama just couldn't figure out a way of drawing the death rays shooting out of 20's eyes so that they would clearly look like "regular" lasers (or at least regular sci-fi lasers) rather than the sort of ki beams that Piccolo or Freeza shoot out of their eyes.

Overall, the only difference between the androids' energy and regular ki that's ever stated or shown is that the androids' energy can't be sensed by Goku and co. So I think the simplest explanation is that their energy really is the same as regular ki in all ways except that it can't be sensed; meaning it's really just untraceable ki or something so similar to ki that we might as well just call it that. But I don't think there's anything ruling out your explanation.

I guess I might as well do the obligatory "mention Hunter x Hunter whenever a conversation looks in-depth at the mechanics of ki", but both that series and Yu Yu Hakusho have the idea that people can render their ki invisible through training. So maybe something similar is at work when DB characters make their ki incapable of being sensed? Probably an applicable analogy for Beerus/SSG at least, if not necessarily the androids.

While we're at it, we might also ask just why is it that the characters can sense ki, but not other forms of energy like fire and electricity and whatnot?
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Bussani » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:36 am

Herms wrote:
Bussani wrote:As for #19 and #20, I just figured they converted ki into some more traditional form of energy. I mean, it's not hard; if you used ki to turn a turbine, you could convert it straight into electricity. You could probably power a solar generator with a Taiyoken, too.
That's certainly a possibility. My main objection is that the energy 19 and 20 use looks identical to what Goku et al use. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. But I admit, maybe Toriyama just couldn't figure out a way of drawing the death rays shooting out of 20's eyes so that they would clearly look like "regular" lasers (or at least regular sci-fi lasers) rather than the sort of ki beams that Piccolo or Freeza shoot out of their eyes.

Overall, the only difference between the androids' energy and regular ki that's ever stated or shown is that the androids' energy can't be sensed by Goku and co. So I think the simplest explanation is that their energy really is the same as regular ki in all ways except that it can't be sensed; meaning it's really just untraceable ki or something so similar to ki that we might as well just call it that.

I guess I might as well do the obligatory "mention Hunter x Hunter whenever a conversation looks in-depth at the mechanics of ki", but both that series and Yu Yu Hakusho have the idea that people can render their ki invisible through training. So maybe something similar is at work when DB characters make their ki incapable of being sensed? Probably an applicable analogy for Beerus/SSG at least, if not necessarily the androids.
That's true. I've always liked likening ki to sound, or specifically to voices (everyone has their own recognizable voice, it can be loud or quiet, it's harder to hear from far away unless it gets louder, and it can get lost in a crowd of other voices, etc), and we could continue the analogy further to include sounds that are outside of a human's frequency range and thus can't be heard even if they're technically "loud" (i.e. have a high amplitude). Maybe Godly Ki and/or android ki could be something like that. It's the same as how infrared is beyond the ability for the human eye to perceive, but it's still there.
While we're at it, we might also ask just why is it that the characters can sense ki, but not other forms of energy like fire and electricity and whatnot?
I think it's mostly a matter of how far ki propagates. Fire technically isn't energy, but the heat it gives off is, and we can sense that if we're close enough to it. That's assuming ki is something that radiates out from a person, of course. Hey, that's how it works in Hunter x Hunter, right?
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by DerekPadula » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:38 am

Reading this reminded me of an important part of Daoist metaphysics that I believe explains the discrepancy.

A person's consciousness has a big relationship with qi (ki). Every organ in the body also has its own qi, as well as its own soul, with living beings inside the kidney, liver, intestines, and so on. Some have yang qi, others yin qi. There is also the concept of xin (心), which is the kanji for heart; what the Japanese call kokoro. The heart and the mind are the same thing in eastern thought, implying that the heart is the person's consciousness, or rather, the consciousness is in the heart.

It's the heart that does the thinking, not the brain! The brain is considered a processing plant or factory for the consciousness to control the body. With the analogy of an army, it's like the general (the consciousness) in the heart issues an order, the commanders in the brain receive it and issue it out to the captains and lieutenants throughout the body, and the individual soldiers obey as directed.

All of these elements combine together to create a persons individual and unique qi signature, which can be found throughout every cell of a person's body, similar to DNA. This is why Goku can sense Kame-sennin's qi signature when he first shows off the shunkan-ido after Trunks' appearance, or Dende's qi signature bazillions of miles away on Planet Namek. That's the first step of the shunkan-ido process, and the technique relies on it.

Thus an artificial human is different. In the case of 16, 19, and 20, they are robotic and therefore don't have the yin and yang producing organs. Gero has his brain, but like I said, it's just a processing plant, and also very symbolic of himself as an evil scientist, devoid of an ethical 'soul.' For 17 and 18, their organs have been entirely replaced with artificial parts, with their heart and everything else being 'upgraded' in the lab. Thus their consciousness' qi signature are reduced to nothing. For 21 (Cell), he is a genetic creature with its own qi signature that is a combination of all these independent qi signatures put together. That's why the Z Warriors can sense Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and the other people emanating out of his body when he powers up. They sense those other people because Cell is emanating those same qi signatures, as drawn from the individual material samples.

It's clear that 17 and 18 are 'people' who have unique personalities, but they don't have the qi producing organs like normal people. Since that's the case, they won't produce qi. Cell produces qi because he either does have those organic organs or because his body is composed of different qi signature and DNA elements from people who did.

I'm tempted to answer the other questions about Ki's unique qualities, but this is already too long a reply. Hopefully it answers the big question about how 17 and 18 are unique and why they don't produce a ki signature.
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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by Zephyr » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:20 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Or hey: just ignore that little tidbit. Easy enough.
But that ruins the fun of reconciling otherwise conflicting bits of information, which adds some depth to an otherwise more shallow mythos.

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Re: How were #17 and #18 enhanced?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:52 pm

Kaboom wrote:Especially in the way that it can't be sensed like the mechanical-model Androids' artificial power, while Cell's organic power CAN be sensed. What makes the 17 and 18 different from the other Androids but also different from Cell?
#17 & #18 had to be modified by Dr. Gero, while Cell was "naturally" born & developed. So, one can't be born with these modifications, and he has to be modified by someone.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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