When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

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When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:25 pm

Yeah, this thread again, because I'm freaking confused. But this time, I would like to ask everyone to only go by the original manga, and ignore everything else (colored manga, Daizenshuu, etc).

So, some believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 only against Kibito, while others believe that he was also one against Dabra, Majin Boo('s Egg), and when drawing the Z-Sword (Gohan's hairstyle indicates that he was using the same form in all three points).

So, to the "SS believers", I have this question:
  • Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.
To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:
  • Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:33 pm

(I'll give my input early, but after that I'll try to stick to watching this thread in a moderator capacity.)
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.
I think the problem lies within what I bolded. Gohan couldn't "easily" go Super Saiyan 2. We've been told and shown that Super Saiyan forms take practice to be able to use at the drop of a hat, and thanks to Gohan's lack of training over the past seven years, he doesn't have the ability to just "pop" into SSJ2 like Goku and Vegeta do. Against Kibito, he had to take time to stand around and gather energy to do it, which took long enough that the audience started getting impatient.

Since Dabra is evidently weaker than Gohan in whichever form he was using (source for that being a guidebook but it makes sense), Gohan probably started the battle off with Super Saiyan 1 not thinking he'd need anything more. But by the time he realized SSJ2 would be his best bet, Dabra wouldn't allow him the time and effort to transform further. Same against Majin Boo's ball — Boo's release was about to happen in a matter of seconds, and Gohan wouldn't have time to force out Super Saiyan 2. Sufficient anger would work as a shortcut in both situations, but as was noted he's having a hard time making that happen too.

In a nutshell, "Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 because he CAN'T easily take the form at will because he never trained to do so."
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:36 pm

I think the problem lies within what I bolded. Gohan couldn't "easily" go Super Saiyan 2. Against Kibito, he had to take time to stand around and gather energy to do it, which took long enough that the audience started getting impatient. We've been told and shown that Super Saiyan forms take practice to be able to use at the drop of a hat, and thanks to Gohan's lack of training over the past seven years, he doesn't have the ability to just "pop" into SSJ2 like Goku and Vegeta do.

Since Dabra is evidently weaker than Gohan in whichever form he was using (source for that being a guidebook but it makes sense), Gohan probably started the battle off with Super Saiyan 1 not thinking he'd need anything more. But by the time he realized SSJ2 would be his best bet, Dabra wouldn't allow him the time and effort to transform further. Same against Majin Boo's ball — Boo's release was about to happen in a matter of seconds, and Gohan wouldn't have time to force out Super Saiyan 2. Sufficient anger would work as a shortcut in both situations, but as was noted he's having a hard time making that happen too.

In a nutshell, "Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 because he CAN'T easily take the form at will because he never trained to do so."
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by MDSTSSJ » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:38 am

I'm a SSJ2 believer and I've always been aware of the lack of aura on Gohan's transformations after Kibito. Kaboom's explanation is the best so far and makes more sense to me know when I think of it!!

That explanation sounds better to think it was a drawing mistake.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by sintzu » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:40 am

1- No sparks

2- Ssj aura

There is no dout he was an ssj only and the reason is he didn't train on how to use it so he couldn't transform any time he wanted
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:32 am

Kaboom wrote:I think the problem lies within what I bolded. Gohan couldn't "easily" go Super Saiyan 2. Against Kibito, he had to take time to stand around and gather energy to do it, which took long enough that the audience started getting impatient. We've been told and shown that Super Saiyan forms take practice to be able to use at the drop of a hat, and thanks to Gohan's lack of training over the past seven years, he doesn't have the ability to just "pop" into SSJ2 like Goku and Vegeta do.
That's what I thought as well, but after seeing the chapters again, it seems more like Gohan hasn't decided to transform and holds himself, since after a while he says "fine I'll transform".
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Blade » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:06 am

Just when I thought we'd seen off this topic for a couple of months at least...

I go with the in-universe depiction, that seems to show that the only time he went Super Saiyan 2 was as a demonstration for Kibito at the Tenkaichi Budokai. As for why he never went Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura (apart from the possibility that Toriyama forgot to draw the sparks, which seems nonsensical given that he seems to remember to draw them just fine in the Majin Vegeta fight shortly afterwards) I look to Goku's fight against Yakon.

Did Goku go Super Saiyan 2? No - but he could have done and ended the fight in seconds, but he didn't - as he felt that he didn't need to. I assume the same for Gohan, in that he didn't go all out either because he underestimated Dabura's power or overestimated his own battle sharpness - both of which are consistent with both Goku and Vegeta's observationss during the battle.

As for why he went to Super Saiyan to attack Buu's ball, I think that's easily explained by the fact that Super Saiyan is often seen as the quick and easy go-to transformation. Goku and Vegeta continue to use Super Saiyan as a readily available boost despite having transformations that far supersede it, yet for some reason only Gohan seems to draw controversy when he follows the same formula. For example: I rarely see anyone complain about Vegeta's use of Super Saiyan, or even his base form, against Kid Buu.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:14 am

Blade wrote:As for why he went to Super Saiyan to attack Buu's ball, I think that's easily explained by the fact that Super Saiyan is often seen as the quick and easy go-to transformation. Goku and Vegeta continue to use Super Saiyan as a readily available boost despite having transformations that far supersede it, yet for some reason only Gohan seems to draw controversy when he follows the same formula. For example: I rarely see anyone complain about Vegeta's use of Super Saiyan, or even his base form, against Kid Buu.
When the fighting starts in the Kaioshin realm, Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 2 against Pure Buu the first time and is too weakened to transform during the second attempt.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:51 am

When the fighting starts in the Kaioshin realm, Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 2 against Pure Buu the first time and is too weakened to transform during the second attempt.
In that anime it's unknown that Vegeta has the SSJ2 after he came back from the death, because he was lack of sparks. In the manga are there sparks?
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Blade » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:40 am

Low Tone G wrote:
When the fighting starts in the Kaioshin realm, Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 2 against Pure Buu the first time and is too weakened to transform during the second attempt.
In that anime it's unknown that Vegeta has the SSJ2 after he came back from the death, because he was lack of sparks. In the manga are there sparks?
No sparks. They're only drawn on him during the Majin Vegeta fight and his subsequent fight against Majin Buu.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:00 am

Looks like sparks to me:

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:05 am

Thank you, man!

It implies that Vegeta has attain SSJ2 during 7 years time-skip, if without Majin power-up he is able to transform in? I'm asking because it's debatable issue...
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:13 am

I don't see how it's ever been debatable really. Even in the series, Vegeta ascends to easily for it to have been from Babidi's possession. Anyway, here's Daizenshu #7's entry on it:

Super Saiyan 2
User(s): Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
Characteristics: This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Saiga » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:57 am

Can I answer both? Ima answer both, because I believe both have problems.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
So, to the "SS believers", I have this question:
  • Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.
I have a hard time answering this one. I really, really don't buy that he couldn't transform, or that he couldn't find an opportunity to transform because it's simply not that hard. At the Budokai, he's calm, and his transformation seemingly takes no time at all - once he actually decides to transform, it happens. The crowd complaining and all of that only happened while he was still uncertain on whether he should transform at all, not while he was actually trying. Plus Dabra blasted him into the water, and sat around mocking him at times. It's clear that Dabra was not constantly putting pressure on him like what would have had to happen for Gohan to have no opportunity to transform. This has always been an extremely unsatisfying explanation for me. The only worse explanation is "he can't go Super Saiyan 2 any more, except for when he could 10 minutes ago" because that's something the story really should have explained if that was meant to be the case.

The only other explanation I can think of would take a certain interpretation of this quote:
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!
...to mean that Gohan deliberately avoided using Super Saiyan 2 to avoid giving Boo more energy, since Super Saiyan 2 uses more energy than Super Saiyan 1. If Dabra wasn't capable of extracting energy than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, it might be best to stick to that and try to turn the fight around gradually, instead of using Super Saiyan 2 and immediately gaining the upper hand at the cost of giving energy to Boo from using the form. I had previously thought this might be the case, but seeing the quote with Herms' more accurate translation, it definitely sounds more like Gohan's just saying the stronger both fighters are the more energy is released from the damage. It could still be the case that the energy consumed by transformations fuels Boo, but the quote doesn't appear to support that. It also wouldn't explain why Gohan didn't use it against Boo.

Another reason he didn't use it against Dabra is maybe he just wanted to conserve his energy, but I'm not sure why that would be the case. They were told that Dabra was basically the final boss, so there's no reason to hold out. It's possible Gohan felt that it wasn't power he lacked, and that Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't help offset his own rustiness - maybe it was that he knew he could win as it was, if he managed to adjust to to the fight and Dabra's tricks. Or maybe Kibito just fucked up and didn't actually restore all his power, so he didn't have enough to transform.

Against Boo, it's harder. Perhaps he was able to produce a Kamehameha at its strongest without turning Super Saiyan 2? Who knows how it works, maybe putting everything into a Kamehameha takes the energy he'd use for Super Saiyan 2 as well. After he used the Kamehameha, he could just be too exhausted to maintain anything but the regular Super Saiyan state.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:
  • Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.
I don't believe SS2 necessarily does have its own aura. The only thing that says this is the GT Perfect Files (which make a mistake in the same sentence they say this, and we're not using anything but the manga) and so there is only interpretations of the arc. It could just be that sparks are entirely stylistic, and represent power - Gohan was previously shown with sparks when he was the strongest character we knew of, and it wasn't yet revealed how much weaker he'd become.

And the weaker = no sparks SS2 argument can work if you assume Kibito didn't restore his energy, or he'd already lost some from fighting Dabra. I don't think he would have lost enough to drop out of Super Saiyan 2, but I could see the sparks going away if he's only able to produce them at close to 100% because he's weakened.

Besides, when Vegeta fights Pure Boo, he only has sparks in one panel after Pure Boo hits him. Compared to sixteen panels of him lacking sparks. So I don't make too big a deal out of missing sparks.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:08 am

I was once (maybe several times in fact :lol:) a SSJ2's believer, but I think Gohan just didn't feel the need to ascend to this form in any of these situations. He even suggests not using SSJ2 to conserve his energy and avoid giving a large portion to Buu.

Actually, I don't remember if he knew Kaioshin stopped his movements as a SSJ2 and he got the trauma to not repeat the same situation again.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by hleV » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:21 am

Kaboom wrote:Since Dabra is evidently weaker than Gohan in whichever form he was using (source for that being a guidebook but it makes sense)
Which guidebook says that and what's the exact quote?

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:56 am

hleV wrote:Which guidebook says that and what's the exact quote?
It's from the synopsis for Episode 227 in the DBZ Dragon Books. As translated in FUNimation's version:

"The one-on-one battle between Gohan and Dabura gets underway! With his fighting skills rusty, Gohan has a surprisingly difficult battle against an opponent who clearly possesses inferior power."
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by hleV » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:33 pm

Oh, it's anime-based. Then I guess I can ignore it, as I believe Dabra was stronger than Gohan.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kakarot88 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:37 pm

If Gohan was not SS2 then how does one reconcile the following:
  • (1) Goku says Dabura is about as strong as Cell.
    • Reference Material:
    (2) Gohan needed to go Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell, and in fact was nearly bear hugged to death as a SS1 when he fought Cell.
    • Reference Material:
    (3) When Gohan fights Dabura, Gohan is weaker than when he fought against Cell.
    • Reference Material:
In sum: We are to believe that weaker Boo arc SS1 Gohan can somehow accomplish what his stronger Cell arc SS1 younger self could not? :crazy:
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by hleV » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:23 pm

"As strong as Cell" means power that's between Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell. If Goku said "stronger than Cell", then we'd have to assume that he means stronger than Cell had ever been (so Super Perfect Cell), but Goku just said that Dabra's stronger than he had previously thought, which could still fall in range of Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, or be a little above it for all we know.

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