When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by kuartus4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:10 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I just don't see the point of Goku mentioning Vegeta's Chi if he was never able to sense him at all. There's also Vegeta's power-up to Super Saiyan 2, which convinces Goku that the fight won't be so quick after all. I doubt he was going by looks alone.
If Vegeta kills babidi, he breaks the spell and can be sensed again. That's my point. And well...

Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 as well*
Goku: “This don’t look like it’s gonna end quickly…”

Goku only admits they are completely even after fighting him.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I don't think Gohan was really going off of sensing, though. Not entirely, anyway. His observation was based on the amount of damage energy that Boo was receiving. He then realized that Goku was Super Saiyan 2 and assumed that Vegeta would be as well.
That's my point though. He wouldn't need to assume anything. He can feel Goku fighting at a level beyond super saiyan, so if he can sense Vegeta then assumptions are unnecessary.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:As for Trunks, he just saw Vegeta a few hrs before that part, so I'm sure his father's level of power was still fresh enough for him to make an accurate comparison. Besides that, we have Trunks stating how they're moving too fast. Goku and Vegeta were the only ones fighting and moving quickly at that point.
You are right. The Viz does have Trunks saying "they're" moving too fast. But the viz also words the previous comment differently than what is in the strength checker. The comment Trunks makes about the super duper astounding ki. The viz has trunks say "who are they, our papas?" while Herms has it as "who is it, Is it papa and the others". It would be great if Herms translated that part of Trunks dialogue as well.
Trunks: “Th-that old guy…He has about as much power as papa…”
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Way too specific for him to be talking about pre-majin Vegeta. That's a direct comparison to Vegeta, who we know was equal with Goku.
Trunks never knew Vegeta got possessed so its not like he can differentiate between pre majin and post majin vegeta.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:43 pm

kuartus4 wrote:If Vegeta kills babidi, he breaks the spell and can be sensed again.
I don't think Bobbidi's fate was on Goku's mind there.
Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 as well*
Goku: “This don’t look like it’s gonna end quickly…”
Yeah, the battle doesn't "look" like it'll end quickly, lol. Goku's reaction after Vegeta's power-up alone tells us that Vegeta ended up being more far more powerful than he was expecting.
Goku only admits they are completely even after fighting him.
Fighting is necessary to get a real understanding of how one compares to another. Certainly beats standing around.
That's my point though. He wouldn't need to assume anything. He can feel Goku fighting at a level beyond super saiyan, so if he can sense Vegeta then assumptions are unnecessary.
Gohan never knew Vegeta reached that level, but he actually saw Goku go Super Saiyan 2. So there's definitely room for assumptions. I don't think the "probably" means Vegeta gave off no Chi to sense. Gohan could've thought Vegeta wasn't actually Super Saiyan 2, but was able to equal Goku through other means (Majin powers) or something.
Trunks never knew Vegeta got possessed so its not like he can differentiate between pre majin and post majin vegeta.
He doesn't need to. We know pre-majin Vegeta isn't as strong as Goku, while Majin Vegeta is. That's who he's comparing Goku to.

At this point, I think it's a real stretch to assume Majin Vegeta had undetectable Chi. It requires you to put too much of a spin on everything that's stated.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:38 pm

Vegeta knew he couldn't handle Goku pre majin and Trunks knew the second ssj3 came that Goku was stronger so for him to say equal he must have sensed Majin Vegeta.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by kuartus4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:08 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I don't think Bobbidi's fate was on Goku's mind there..
Vegeta set out to kill buu, and presumably Babidi as well. So it stands to reason that Goku would be expecting to sense Vegeta had Vegeta managed to succeed.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Goku's reaction after Vegeta's power-up alone tells us that Vegeta ended up being more far more powerful than he was expecting.
But if Goku could sense majin Vegeta, shouldn't Goku already have known how powerful majin Vegeta was from sensing his SSJ1 power?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Fighting is necessary to get a real understanding of how one compares to another. Certainly beats standing around.
Vegeta was able to tell Goku was stronger than kid Gohan, while just standing around.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Gohan never knew Vegeta reached that level, but he actually saw Goku go Super Saiyan 2. So there's definitely room for assumptions. I don't think the "probably" means Vegeta gave off no Chi to sense. Gohan could've thought Vegeta wasn't actually Super Saiyan 2, but was able to equal Goku through other means (Majin powers) or something.
You sure? Vegeta achieved SSJ2 in the 7 year time skip. It would have been pretty hard for Gohan not to notice Vegeta's ki making a huge spike from unlocking SSJ2. Plus, when Vegeta claimed to be stronger than Gohan, Gohan didn't contradict him, or say, "Well, I have ssj2 and you don't so that's unlikely."
And the only unique power the majin charm was seen to grant was increased durability. Why would Gohan assume the majin charm gave other powers which would let Vegeta become Goku's equal?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He doesn't need to. We know pre-majin Vegeta isn't as strong as Goku......
But Trunks doesn't necessarily know that because his ki sensing isn't really top notch.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:It requires you to put too much of a spin on everything that's stated.
Maybe, but I'm just trying to see if I can make it fit, given the statements which imply that majins couldn't be sensed. But like I mentioned earlier, even if Majin Vegeta could be sensed, that doesn't mean Babidi's minions could be as well. Vegeta was never under Babidi's control, and I think Goku also said that he didn't completely sell himself to Babidi, which might be the difference maker.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:00 pm

But if Goku could sense majin Vegeta, shouldn't Goku already have known how powerful majin Vegeta was from sensing his SSJ1 power?
Majin Vegeta wasn't an issue as a Super Saiyan, so Goku wasn't expecting him to be that powerful as a Super Saiyan 2. And that makes sense, considering he had no idea Vegeta's power was pushed beyond its limits.
Vegeta was able to tell Goku was stronger than kid Gohan, while just standing around.
That's because Goku's full-power was flat-out beyond Gohan's from the jump. Vegeta and Goku had to fight each other to realize there was no difference between them.
You sure? Vegeta achieved SSJ2 in the 7 year time skip. It would have been pretty hard for Gohan not to notice Vegeta's ki making a huge spike from unlocking SSJ2. Plus, when Vegeta claimed to be stronger than Gohan, Gohan didn't contradict him, or say, "Well, I have ssj2 and you don't so that's unlikely."
He didn't know Goten was a Super Saiyan as well. Vegeta was training in his secluded gravity room. I could see Gohan missing that.
And the only unique power the majin charm was seen to grant was increased durability. Why would Gohan assume the majin charm gave other powers which would let Vegeta become Goku's equal?
It increased durability and power. That was the reason why Vegeta got possessed to begin with. Also, everyone knew Spopovitch was way more powerful than he should've been--which was confirmed to be Bobbidi's doing later.
But Trunks doesn't necessarily know that because his ki sensing isn't really top notch.
I don't think his sensing is perfect, but it's shown to be quite well. He does say Gohan is equal to Gotenks, but I don't think he was basing that off of sensing. That sounded more like an arrogant comment, since Goten had to correct him on that. Also, we know Trunks's statement on Goku being as strong is Vegeta to be an accurate one.
Maybe, but I'm just trying to see if I can make it fit, given the statements which imply that majins couldn't be sensed. But like I mentioned earlier, even if Majin Vegeta could be sensed, that doesn't mean Babidi's minions could be as well. Vegeta was never under Babidi's control, and I think Goku also said that he didn't completely sell himself to Babidi, which might be the difference maker.
And I don't disagree with the others. I just think there's too much implying Majin Vegeta had sensible Chi.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:17 pm

Trunks said base Gotenks was stronger than Super Buu.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by kuartus4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:48 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Majin Vegeta wasn't an issue as a Super Saiyan, so Goku wasn't expecting him to be that powerful as a Super Saiyan 2. And that makes sense, considering he had no idea Vegeta's power was pushed beyond its limits.
I remember SSJ majin Vegeta doing some power up to expel? Babidi from his mind. Wouldn't Goku know how strong SSJ2 majin Vegeta was from that, by extrapolation?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He didn't know Goten was a Super Saiyan as well. Vegeta was training in his secluded gravity room. I could see Gohan missing that.
But wouldn't Gohan find it fishy for Vegeta to say that he is stronger than Gohan if Gohan doesn't even think Vegeta has SSJ2?

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:40 pm

kuartus4 wrote:I remember SSJ majin Vegeta doing some power up to expel? Babidi from his mind. Wouldn't Goku know how strong SSJ2 majin Vegeta was from that, by extrapolation?
Hmmm...I just checked that part and saw a Super Saiyan 2 aura right there. Don't think I've ever thought about that.

All I could say is Goku probably had Vegeta pegged at a level where he'd (Goku) be capable of finishing the fight fast, but ended up underestimating Vegeta's power in the end. I think Goku, to an extent, would have a grasp of Vegeta's power. I just think the latent power stuff ended up putting Vegeta well above what Goku was expecting.
But wouldn't Gohan find it fishy for Vegeta to say that he is stronger than Gohan if Gohan doesn't even think Vegeta has SSJ2?
Maybe. But it could also be chalked up to "well, it's Vegeta, after all!" I mean, he did claim he was going to win the tournament knowing full well Goku was going to be there.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:48 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Trunks said base Gotenks was stronger than Super Buu.
Trunks comments on Super Buu and Gohan are a child being cocky. His comments on Goku are accurate.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Reading Rainbow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:37 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Yeah, this thread again, because I'm freaking confused. But this time, I would like to ask everyone to only go by the original manga, and ignore everything else (colored manga, Daizenshuu, etc).

So, some believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 only against Kibito, while others believe that he was also one against Dabra, Majin Boo('s Egg), and when drawing the Z-Sword (Gohan's hairstyle indicates that he was using the same form in all three points).

So, to the "SS believers", I have this question:
  • Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 while the whole universe was at risk when Majin Boo was about to be revived, and also revived later? He was even trying to power up even more by drawing power from his anger. Don't forget that he could easily transform into one against Kibito, so he hasn't lost the ability.
To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:
  • Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.
I believe Gohan was SSJ 2 against Dabura; I have a few reasons and this is one of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWZ5pBL853Q

Look at these times 2:13-2:27

To answer your question regarding "SSJ 2 Believers", there are animations errors where sparks are omitted, I want you to look back at the anime and look SPECIFICALLY when Gohan goes SSJ 2 in front of Kibito. Everyone can agree that he was SSJ 2 there, however if you look at EVERY scene of Gohan during that time he does not always have sparks - which are animation errors.

Pulling evidence from Battle of Gods; when Goku goes SSJ 2 against Beerus, there are sparks during the initial transformation yet there are none while he is SSJ 2.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by mAcChaos » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:57 am

That's the anime though. Does the manga make the same mistake?
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:09 am

Reading Rainbow wrote:To answer your question regarding "SSJ 2 Believers", there are animations errors where sparks are omitted, I want you to look back at the anime and look SPECIFICALLY when Gohan goes SSJ 2 in front of Kibito. Everyone can agree that he was SSJ 2 there, however if you look at EVERY scene of Gohan during that time he does not always have sparks - which are animation errors.

Pulling evidence from Battle of Gods; when Goku goes SSJ 2 against Beerus, there are sparks during the initial transformation yet there are none while he is SSJ 2.
But this is the anime you are talking about, which isn't the original. In the manga, the sparks are consistently there in every fight.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Reading Rainbow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:43 am

mAcChaos wrote:That's the anime though. Does the manga make the same mistake?
Yes, it does.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Reading Rainbow wrote:To answer your question regarding "SSJ 2 Believers", there are animations errors where sparks are omitted, I want you to look back at the anime and look SPECIFICALLY when Gohan goes SSJ 2 in front of Kibito. Everyone can agree that he was SSJ 2 there, however if you look at EVERY scene of Gohan during that time he does not always have sparks - which are animation errors.

Pulling evidence from Battle of Gods; when Goku goes SSJ 2 against Beerus, there are sparks during the initial transformation yet there are none while he is SSJ 2.
But this is the anime you are talking about, which isn't the original. In the manga, the sparks are consistently there in every fight.
I just looked back through the manga and I found a single panel where SSJ 2 Gohan uppercuts Perfect Cell and there are no sparks present, going by what you're saying then he was SSJ 1 when he uppercuts cell

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:47 am

It happens very rarely in the manga though. Whenever someone is a SS2 in the manga, he will always show sparks, even if he doesn't have them in a few panels. But in Gohan's case against Dabra & Boo, he doesn't display sparks in any panel at all.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:30 am

A "rushing" aura like that typically overrides and replaces whatever standing aura the character normally has.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Reading Rainbow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:14 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Yeah, this thread again, because I'm freaking confused. But this time, I would like to ask everyone to only go by the original manga, and ignore everything else (colored manga, Daizenshuu, etc).

So, some believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 only against Kibito, while others believe that he was also one against Dabra, Majin Boo('s Egg), and when drawing the Z-Sword (Gohan's hairstyle indicates that he was using the same form in all three points).

To the "SS2 believers", I have this question:
  • Why doesn't Gohan have the SS2 aura? SS2 always granted to the user an intense aura with sparks, yet Gohan's aura in identical to that of normal SS. The excuse that he got weaker doesn't work, because he displayed the SS2 aura with sparks just fine against Kibito.
Kaboom wrote:A "rushing" aura like that typically overrides and replaces whatever standing aura the character normally has.
You're statements here are conflicting. You're saying SSJ 2 always has intense aura of sparks then you say a "rushing" aura typically overrides and replaces whatever standing aura the character normally has. In other words, you're saying that SSJ 2 sometimes has and doesn't have sparks.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:18 pm

They're two different people. One has the username Kaboom and the other is DbzGtKoSD. Also rush attacks or flying aura does overtake the regular aura. Even if that's a rare error(which I think not) it happen in one panel. The entire time Gohan had zero sparks in thr manga.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:22 pm

There's no contradiction, and it's pretty easy to understand what's being said. The manga's normal aura for Super Saiyan 2, when a character is just standing around or fighting or flying or whatever, is a more intense version of the Super Saiyan 1 aura with lightning-like bolts of energy. But during some moments of intense movement and action, Toriyama usually drew a much more jagged and almost "motion blurred" aura, like the one in your picture, in the place of whatever aura they currently have otherwise.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:57 pm

To be more specific, SS2 always granted sparks & an intense aura, but the sparks weren't visible in a few panels.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Reading Rainbow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:22 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:They're two different people. One has the username Kaboom and the other is DbzGtKoSD. Also rush attacks or flying aura does overtake the regular aura. Even if that's a rare error(which I think not) it happen in one panel. The entire time Gohan had zero sparks in thr manga.
You're right, my mistake.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:To be more specific, SS2 always granted sparks & an intense aura, but the sparks weren't visible in a few panels.
I agree with you entirely that the manga's depiction of Gohan's aura during his fight with Dabura has all the qualities of being SSJ 1. Going by the anime an argument can be made either way, however this isn't the topic at hand. Gohan (at either SSJ 1 or SSJ 2) seems to be a better fighter than Dabura, yet Dabura has magic abilities that offset that difference, Gohan is never punched or kicked during that fight where Dabura was.

Making this short and sweet, I think Gohan was supposed to be drawn for SSJ 2. For story sake having Gohan at SSJ 2 makes the situation more intense because if they (Gohan and Dabura) are about even then Gohan would have to become angry to defeat him, which he wasn't able to do.

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