SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:52 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:...what? Has it not been established that the manga is the story and therefore is the only canon that can be based on?
No. There is no officially established canon.
When was this decided? And if this is true, does this not mean all the fillers are more than just fillers, they actually happened, and that GT counts fully as well?

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by TheGmGoken » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:58 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:...what? Has it not been established that the manga is the story and therefore is the only canon that can be based on?
No. There is no officially established canon.
When was this decided? And if this is true, does this not mean all the fillers are more than just fillers, they actually happened, and that GT counts fully as well?
I mean GT happen. If you THINK it happen in the MAIN timeline then sure. But many will disagree. Also here a few things.

Movies are from an another dimension(Toriyama said so himself. "I watch them as a viewer")
BoG happens in main timeline...well implied by Toriyama.

So there are your two somewhat canon statements.

I just go by Manga, CERTAIN guidebooks, Anime when doesn't contradict manga, and a little of fan theories.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by rereboy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:03 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote: When was this decided? And if this is true, does this not mean all the fillers are more than just fillers, they actually happened, and that GT counts fully as well?
For canon to exist, it has to be officially established what really happened and what didn't really happened, what counts and what doesn't count. Nothing has ever been officially established, so there's no official canon.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:35 pm

rereboy wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote: When was this decided? And if this is true, does this not mean all the fillers are more than just fillers, they actually happened, and that GT counts fully as well?
For canon to exist, it has to be officially established what really happened and what didn't really happened, what counts and what doesn't count. Nothing has ever been officially established, so there's no official canon.
I thought the common knowledge was that we go by the manga. I.e... it was never over 9,000 as that was a translation error from the manga, where it is over 8,000.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by TheGmGoken » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:36 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
rereboy wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote: When was this decided? And if this is true, does this not mean all the fillers are more than just fillers, they actually happened, and that GT counts fully as well?
For canon to exist, it has to be officially established what really happened and what didn't really happened, what counts and what doesn't count. Nothing has ever been officially established, so there's no official canon.
I thought the common knowledge was that we go by the manga. I.e... it was never over 9,000 as that was a translation error from the manga, where it is over 8,000.
Dub error not anime error.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:15 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:
rereboy wrote: For canon to exist, it has to be officially established what really happened and what didn't really happened, what counts and what doesn't count. Nothing has ever been officially established, so there's no official canon.
I thought the common knowledge was that we go by the manga. I.e... it was never over 9,000 as that was a translation error from the manga, where it is over 8,000.
Dub error not anime error.
Fine, in which case I'll use that in the manga full powered Frieza was still no match for SSJ Goku but in the anime Frieza was able to keep up with him. Are we to believe that there are two different viable versions of this fight or that there is only 1 right one?

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:25 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote: Fine, in which case I'll use that in the manga full powered Freeza was still no match for SSJ Goku but in the anime Freeza was able to keep up with him. Are we to believe that there are two different viable versions of this fight or that there is only 1 right one?
I would just go with what the ORIGINAL AUTHOR drew and wrote. Besides both versions are "Right" and are "Viable". Just in different ways.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by Bussani » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:46 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote:Fine, in which case I'll use that in the manga full powered Freeza was still no match for SSJ Goku but in the anime Freeza was able to keep up with him. Are we to believe that there are two different viable versions of this fight or that there is only 1 right one?
All they're saying is that there isn't any official or agreed upon canon that everyone sticks to. So long as everyone's clear about what they're talking about (i.e. manga, anime, spin-off, movie, whatever) then everything's fine. You could just consider the manga canon, but that's more of an opinion than a rule and might not make your stance clear enough to whoever's readying your post.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by rereboy » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:18 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote: I thought the common knowledge was that we go by the manga. I.e... it was never over 9,000 as that was a translation error from the manga, where it is over 8,000.
Nothing official was ever stated about only the manga being the canon and anime filler for example not being canon. What you are talking about is just your personal view on what should be the canon.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:46 am

TheGmGoken wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote: Fine, in which case I'll use that in the manga full powered Freeza was still no match for SSJ Goku but in the anime Freeza was able to keep up with him. Are we to believe that there are two different viable versions of this fight or that there is only 1 right one?
I would just go with what the ORIGINAL AUTHOR drew and wrote. Besides both versions are "Right" and are "Viable". Just in different ways.
exactly; And that is only the manga, and that's why that is the canon. When people think of what happened in Harry Potter JK Rowling is always used as the canon.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by Bussani » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:21 am

What about things Toriyama has said in interviews, or separate stories that use ideas or characters he's put forward or designed, or things like Dr. Slump and the appearance of its characters in the manga? I think most people can agree on the manga being a starting point if you want to talk about canon, but you'll never get everyone to agree on more than that without someone like Toriyama defining an official canon for us.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:31 am

Bussani wrote:What about things Toriyama has said in interviews, or separate stories that use ideas or characters he's put forward or designed, or things like Dr. Slump and the appearance of its characters in the manga? I think most people can agree on the manga being a starting point if you want to talk about canon, but you'll never get everyone to agree on more than that without someone like Toriyama defining an official canon for us.
That's the thing - he didn't seem to like doing interviews much and now someone in the thread said it was only a fanmade rumor that he said Mystic Gohan was the strongest singular character. Now that I know that was just a silly rumor, I'm going back to believing it is SSJ3 Goku (my faith was always there) and that Super Kaioken 3 Goku is the strongest singular character of all.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:58 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Bussani wrote:What about things Toriyama has said in interviews, or separate stories that use ideas or characters he's put forward or designed, or things like Dr. Slump and the appearance of its characters in the manga? I think most people can agree on the manga being a starting point if you want to talk about canon, but you'll never get everyone to agree on more than that without someone like Toriyama defining an official canon for us.
That's the thing - he didn't seem to like doing interviews much and now someone in the thread said it was only a fanmade rumor that he said Mystic Gohan was the strongest singular character. Now that I know that was just a silly rumor, I'm going back to believing it is SSJ3 Goku (my faith was always there) and that Super Kaioken 3 Goku is the strongest singular character of all.
While it's just a fan-made rumor that he said that, you have to take into account that official sources do support that Gohan was stronger than Goku even up to the Battle of the Gods movie, which takes place after the majority of Z, with the Battle of the Gods bio for Gohan essentially saying that he is stronger than any pure-blooded Saiya-jin, which would include Goku.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by rereboy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:39 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Bussani wrote:What about things Toriyama has said in interviews, or separate stories that use ideas or characters he's put forward or designed, or things like Dr. Slump and the appearance of its characters in the manga? I think most people can agree on the manga being a starting point if you want to talk about canon, but you'll never get everyone to agree on more than that without someone like Toriyama defining an official canon for us.
That's the thing - he didn't seem to like doing interviews much and now someone in the thread said it was only a fanmade rumor that he said Mystic Gohan was the strongest singular character. Now that I know that was just a silly rumor, I'm going back to believing it is SSJ3 Goku (my faith was always there) and that Super Kaioken 3 Goku is the strongest singular character of all.
Gohan has always been the character with the biggest potential of them all. Always. His hidden power has always been monstrous. And with Mystic, he had all of his potential unlocked beyond its natural limits. So why and how would Goku manage to be stronger than him without something like SSJG?

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:21 pm

rereboy wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Bussani wrote:What about things Toriyama has said in interviews, or separate stories that use ideas or characters he's put forward or designed, or things like Dr. Slump and the appearance of its characters in the manga? I think most people can agree on the manga being a starting point if you want to talk about canon, but you'll never get everyone to agree on more than that without someone like Toriyama defining an official canon for us.
That's the thing - he didn't seem to like doing interviews much and now someone in the thread said it was only a fanmade rumor that he said Mystic Gohan was the strongest singular character. Now that I know that was just a silly rumor, I'm going back to believing it is SSJ3 Goku (my faith was always there) and that Super Kaioken 3 Goku is the strongest singular character of all.
Gohan has always been the character with the biggest potential of them all. Always. His hidden power has always been monstrous. And with Mystic, he had all of his potential unlocked beyond its natural limits. So why and how would Goku manage to be stronger than him without something like SSJG?
I don't know if I can buy that. In my opinion, every hybrid Saiyan has the potential that a full blooded Saiyan does not just by being more emotional, and that's why the combined strength of Gotenks was able to bypass SSJ2 and go to SSJ3. Furthermore, if Gohan continued to work out after Cell and eventually hit SSJ3 but then still decided to have Elder Kai work on him, I feel his mystic form would have been greater than it what it was in the story.

Anyways though, since that didn't happen, and Gotenks did not have the privilege of learning Kaioken, I believe Super Kaioken 3 Goku, the hypothetical character, is the strongest singular character of all.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by RocktheDragon » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:04 am

Anyways though, since that didn't happen, and Gotenks did not have the privilege of learning Kaioken, I believe Super Kaioken 3 Goku, the hypothetical character, is the strongest singular character of all.
I'm going to go with what a previous poster said about a SSJ3 Kaioken being impossible due to the energy drain of the SSJ3 form. Combining both techniques would be a terrible idea and would probably end in Goku getting hurt or heavily damaged.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:33 am

RocktheDragon wrote:
Anyways though, since that didn't happen, and Gotenks did not have the privilege of learning Kaioken, I believe Super Kaioken 3 Goku, the hypothetical character, is the strongest singular character of all.
I'm going to go with what a previous poster said about a SSJ3 Kaioken being impossible due to the energy drain of the SSJ3 form. Combining both techniques would be a terrible idea and would probably end in Goku getting hurt or heavily damaged.
Goku did not have much practice with SSJ3 in the real world and I'm sure if he had he'd be able to build up enough stamina to maintain it for longer periods of time instead of short bursts. As well, like I mentioned before, all SSJ transformations are genetic and Kaioken is a technique, so as long as he just uses Kaioken x1 combined with a SSJ form I do not think it would be detrimental to his well being.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by Low Tone G » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:46 am

I can see that we entered in the: Who is stronger - issue?

My opinioin is that Gohan was stronger than Goku in the Majin Buu saga, but I do beilve that Goku is enough smart and intelligent to be able to find other ways to surpass his son other than just train under high gravity and so on. He promissed that if Kid Buu will come back someday he will be enough strong to fight him alone. In other words his life earned meaning once again. We know Goku, he is the symbol of nothing's impossible. Vegeta was affraid when heard Goku as defeated with hits blows in B.o.G. If it hasn't changed so much since Majin Buu saga, Vegeta wouldn't be any scared because for Ultimate Gohan his father would be also two hits, like SSJ2 could make Cell to be down with two punches. Goku is implied to be the strongest in BoG even without any SSJ God change.

I don't know how and why but Goku was also the strongest in BOG. I think it's just because if he was the hero on Majin Buu saga, so Toriyama and/or Toei(most likely) thought Goku deverves to be the leader again.
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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by rereboy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:18 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote: I don't know if I can buy that.
4 years old Gohan with no training at all was stronger during his rage boost than Goku who had trained all his life.

5 or 6 years old Gohan, with only 1 year of training with Piccolo, his power unlocked by Guru, and a couple of Zenkais, rivaled third form Freeza. At that point Goku was stronger but he had trained with Kaio, he knew Kaioken, had more zenkais than Gohan and then unlocked SSJ.

10 or 11 years old Gohan training with his father outside and inside ROSAT in preparation to the androids and Cell (or, in other words, with the same training that Goku did), not only caught up to Coku, but completely surpassed him by a long shot, eventually even reaching SSJ2 and becoming stronger than even Cell, who was much stronger than Goku.

Gohan has always been superior to Goku and everyone else with his potential. The story itself is written to reflect that.

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Re: SSJ3 Goku X Kaioken

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:47 am

Before Battle of Gods, Gohan is the strongest unfused character of DBZ. That includes SSJ1-3 Goku. You can say a hypothetical powerup may help Goku surpass Gohan but you cant say its a fact because it has not and very likely will not ever be proven.

Pre Battle of Gods - Gohan > Goku.
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