Goku Vs. Paikuhan

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Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by deadguy366 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:55 am

How was Goku able to defeat him so easily if he couldn't even stand up to Cell. Paikuhan basically one shotted Cell a couple episodes earlier, so there should be no way Goku is stronger. He didn't even go ssj2.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Gonstead » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:31 am

1. Cell wouldn't have been at full power, much less 'Super Perfect'.
2. He was caught off guard
3. BS Toei filler character hyping, almost as bad as the humans on Kaio's planet defeating the Ginyu Force.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Nazi Cola » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:13 am

Cell was definitely "Super Perfect" and I'm sure there's even a guidebook except attesting to this. Now, that's not to say he couldn't have been suppressed or in a relaxed state, but he essentially became "Super Perfect" by default because you don't just lose a zenkai power-up.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Gonstead » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:58 am

That "Super Perfect" form was more of a transformation like SSJ2 created via the zenkai than his actual base power. That's at least how I see it.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:28 am

There's also the fact that, IIRC, Pikkon never used Burning Shoot against Goku.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:43 am

deadguy366 wrote:How was Goku able to defeat him so easily
Er, what? From what I recall, Paikuhan had the advantage in the fight. Plus, Paikuhan defeated Cell with a special technique that seems to work like the Kaio-ken, and he never used that on Goku.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Mystic Buu » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:41 am

I always believed that he was suppressed but Paikuhan also used some flame technique like Kaioken and that helped.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:43 am

It wasn't an easy victory, Paikuhan was giving Goku a lot of trouble and had the advantage until the end, but was outsmarted. And there is a lot of argument about the kaioken-like technique Paikuhan uses to defeat Cell or if Cell uses a significant portion of his power, dropping his own defenses to attack Goku.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Darknat » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:23 pm

I suppose it doesn't count, but doesn't the tenkaichi 3 encyclopedia says that Goku was SS2 in that fight? I know the anime staff didn't even know back then what a ss2 was, and the hair was not correct, and also there was no lighning (for the most part), but maybe this has been retconed.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:58 pm

That episode in hell isn't one I take that seriously to be honest. I mean Cell and all the other villains get locked in jail for crying out loud.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:02 am

I go with the suppressed theory, but Paikuhan is still stronger than Goku either way at the time...it's the Goku/Daimao/Mutaito thing all over again
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:42 am

I don't know if this is right translation, but it says: Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell.

Image


So if that is what it says, it's all because of this:

Image


Pikkon (special attack) > SPC > Pikkon

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by mAcChaos » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm

He didn't beat Cell. He only surprise attacked him and launched him into that lake, which doesn't let people escape, remember?

So after that it was over. If Cell was able to get out again then who knows what would happen.

Remember just because you hit someone with a surprise attack in DBZ doesn't mean you are stronger. Look at SSJ Kid Trunks kicking Fat Buu or Piccolo kicking Freeza.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:14 pm

He got 2 hit on Cell. Cell was outcold with 1st...btw ginyu force got out of lake back in frieza saga...
Last edited by Super Vegetto on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by mAcChaos » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:25 pm

Super Vegetto wrote:He got 2 hit on Cell. Cell was outcold with 1st...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56glJVbrw4

Huh, you're right. If you look at Cell's eyes, they're blanked out.

Also I like how Freeza gets jealous of Cell's power.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:30 pm

Image

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:19 am

A single image, particularly a meme image, is not an appropriate response to a conversation.
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by Kakarot88 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:15 am

In-Universe Rationale:
  • Kaio-ken puts a huge strain on the body.
    Super Saiyan puts a huge strain on the body.
    The living body as seen in the Boo arc can endure less than the dead body (see Goku going SS3).
    The living body therefore could not take Kaio-ken on top of Super Saiyan given the strain.

    The Super Exciting Guide says
    • SS1 is base form x 50
      SS2 is SS1 x 2, so that would be base form x 100.
    Goku has used Kaio-ken up to x20.

    Goku went super saiyan and then upped the power by using Kaio-ken when he fought Pikuhan, so if Goku's Kaio-ken was greater than x2 as a Super saiyan then he would be equal to if not greater than SS2 bc SS1x2 = SS2...and Goku was able to do this because Goku was dead and the dead body can take more strain than the living body allowing Goku to be more powerful than an SS2 without going SS2 :crazy:
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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by deadguy366 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:28 am

90sDBZ wrote:That episode in hell isn't one I take that seriously to be honest. I mean Cell and all the other villains get locked in jail for crying out loud.

That's a good point actually. Based on that episode Goku should've been able to defeat Cell, however Kakarot88's and others responses have helped rationalize things for me. Thanks.

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Re: Goku Vs. Paikuhan

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:27 am

Gonstead wrote:1. Cell wouldn't have been at full power, much less 'Super Perfect'.
2. He was caught off guard
3. BS Toei filler character hyping, almost as bad as the humans on Kaio's planet defeating the Ginyu Force.
I see it as :
Cell > Paikuhan > Goku

But the only reason Paikuhan gained the advantage was because the attack he used was like kaioken of some sort. It multiplied his ki.
So with moves like Kaioken, then I see the chain as :
Paikuhan > Goku > Cell.

Goku only won the match because he outsmarted Paikuhan and would have lost if not otherwise. Hell, he even resorted into using SSJ kaioken during the fight.

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