Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:21 am

But Goku was surprised with its existence, not its feeling.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:14 am

So, DBZ: Battle of Gods - Special Edition is over, and in a new scene, after Beerus defeated SS3 Goku, Goku says that he wouldn't be able to beat Beerus even if he was to merge with Vegeta, confirming that Beerus is stronger than SS3 Vegetto.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Nazi Cola » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:35 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, DBZ: Battle of Gods - Special Edition is over, and in a new scene, after Beerus defeated SS3 Goku, Goku says that he wouldn't be able to beat Beerus even if he was to merge with Vegeta, confirming that Beerus is stronger than SS3 Vegetto.
Not necessarily. The logic I see some people use for a hypothetical Gogeta in the Boo arc is that the characters weren't considering Super Saiyan 3, just Super Saiyan 1. So if that can be used there, why not here? Or the opposite of that, which would be if the characters were considering Super Saiyan 3, why not in the Boo arc? But I don't really want to mess with that whole Gogeta debate here. Just putting that out there.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:39 am

Julian did say "probably" in his tweet. We should also probably wait for a more detailed summary of the new stuff, this line included, before diving into it too deeply. We could have another "maybe, maybe not" thing on our hands, like with the Vegetto/SSJ4 thing, where Super Saiyan (1/2/3) Vegetto MIGHT be able to tackle Beerus, but no guarantees.
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:09 am

Nazi Cola wrote:The logic I see some people use for a hypothetical Gogeta in the Boo arc is that the characters weren't considering Super Saiyan 3, just Super Saiyan 1.
I think you are not confusing this with not considering SS3 for Gotenks to beat Fat Boo. Which makes sense, because SS3 wasn't needed for Gotenks to beat him, and because neither could Gotenks, nor could Goten or Trunks turn into Super Saiyan 3.
Kaboom wrote:Julian did say "probably" in his tweet.
Well, of course Goku shouldn't be able to tell for sure since he never tried to merge with Vegeta & fight Beerus to confirm this, but it's very likely that if they had merged, they wouldn't be able to beat him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Nazi Cola » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:51 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:The logic I see some people use for a hypothetical Gogeta in the Boo arc is that the characters weren't considering Super Saiyan 3, just Super Saiyan 1.
I think you are not confusing this with not considering SS3 for Gotenks to beat Fat Boo. Which makes sense, because SS3 wasn't needed for Gotenks to beat him, and because neither could Gotenks, nor could Goten or Trunks turn into Super Saiyan 3.
Well, that's the thing. Gotenks wasn't capable of such a thing, and neither were the boys so we had no reason to come to that conclusion at the time; it's only way later on that Gotenks displayed the ability. Gogeta likely would've been considering Goku's knowledge and ability to use the form already.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:15 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, DBZ: Battle of Gods - Special Edition is over, and in a new scene, after Beerus defeated SS3 Goku, Goku says that he wouldn't be able to beat Beerus even if he was to merge with Vegeta, confirming that Beerus is stronger than SS3 Vegetto.
Or that he's just stronger than the far, far, far weaker SS3 Gogeta.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:31 pm

Beerus > SSJ3 Vegeto, deal with it :mrgreen:
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:55 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Beerus > SSJ3 Vegeto, deal with it :mrgreen:
I think it's safe to assume Beerus was above SSJ3 Vegetto, if Goku thought about fusion then discarded to use it, he could guess how powerful could he be as Vegetto. Goku has very reliable sense of judgement in fight issues!
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:55 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:Well, that's the thing. Gotenks wasn't capable of such a thing, and neither were the boys so we had no reason to come to that conclusion at the time; it's only way later on that Gotenks displayed the ability. Gogeta likely would've been considering Goku's knowledge and ability to use the form already.
Wait, what was your point again? That they would only consider Super Saiyan and not Super Saiyan 3? Why wouldn't they consider SS3?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Or that he's just stronger than the far, far, far weaker SS3 Gogeta.
If that was the case, Goku would have said something like "even if I use Fusion with Vegeta, we would probably not beat him". But all he said was that they would probably be unable to beat him if they had merged in general. And when they merge in general, they become either Gogeta, or Vegetto.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:03 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:Well, that's the thing. Gotenks wasn't capable of such a thing, and neither were the boys so we had no reason to come to that conclusion at the time; it's only way later on that Gotenks displayed the ability. Gogeta likely would've been considering Goku's knowledge and ability to use the form already.
Wait, what was your point again? That they would only consider Super Saiyan and not Super Saiyan 3? Why wouldn't they consider SS3?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Or that he's just stronger than the far, far, far weaker SS3 Gogeta.
If that was the case, Goku would have said something like "even if I use Fusion with Vegeta, we would probably not beat him". But all he said was that they would probably be unable to beat him if they had merged in general. And when they merge in general, they become either Gogeta, or Vegetto.
He just said "merged", which could be referring to Gogeta, Vegetto, or both. However, since all of the Potara earrings are broken at this point, it just as easily could refer to just Gogeta.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Saiyan007 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:27 pm

If Goku knows how strong SSJ3 Vegito is, that renders ssj Vegito=Ssj4 goku invalid

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:41 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:He just said "merged", which could be referring to Gogeta, Vegetto, or both. However, since all of the Potara earrings are broken at this point, it just as easily could refer to just Gogeta.
No, they aren't all broken. Kibito was show to be capable of creating them when he gave Gohan the Kaioshin outfit, and both Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Potara in Battle of Gods.
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:42 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:He just said "merged", which could be referring to Gogeta, Vegetto, or both. However, since all of the Potara earrings are broken at this point, it just as easily could refer to just Gogeta.
No, they aren't all broken. Kibito was show to be capable of creating them when he gave Gohan the Kaioshin outfit, and both Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Potara in Battle of Gods.
Given the way the earrings are treated, I assume that they can't just spawn them whenever they want, so those are just fakes.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:56 pm

Fakes? Really? C'mon man...

If anything Rou Kaioshin and East Kaioshin's shock comes from Goku and Vegeta refusing to fuse at all not because the super rare gems were broken. Like others have said they can easily be restored but given Goku's a and Vegeta's train of thought at the time, even if they made a hundred pairs they still would've refused to fuse.
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:59 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Given the way the earrings are treated, I assume that they can't just spawn them whenever they want, so those are just fakes.
That's just it, you're assuming, but there is absolutely nothing in the series that supports that assumption. So the earrings are treated like some sacred object and the Kaioshin freak out when they're smashed (whether that's because the earrings were destroyed or because the Saiyans don't want to use them is debatable). It's not the first time something was treated as sacred or legendary in the series, but became commonplace after being introduced though.

Even if you want to take that route in thinking, all the earrings still aren't broken. There were six during the Buu Arc, worn by Kibito, East Kaioshin and Elder Kaioshin. The two that Kibito and Kaioshin took off to fuse were never smashed.
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:00 pm

Forgot about Old Kai's. I remember three being crushed (two inside Buu's body, one by Vegeta after), so they should still be able to fuse. Beerus > SS3 Vegetto then.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by xmysticgohanx » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:01 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Beerus > SSJ3 Vegeto, deal with it :mrgreen:
Goku can't sense godly ki though. THERE'S NO WAY BEERUS CAN BEAT VEGETTO!!! :cry:

(I'm half joking but like Kaboom said let's wait for a more accurate translation.)
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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:09 pm

Saiyan007 wrote:If Goku knows how strong SSJ3 Vegito is, that renders ssj Vegito=Ssj4 goku invalid
If Goku could estimate how strong SS Gotenks would be, then he should be able to estimate SS3 Vegetto's power as well.
RandomGuy96 wrote:However, since all of the Potara earrings are broken at this point, it just as easily could refer to just Gogeta.
Kibitoshin still has them. And even if they were fakes (you can't prove that), they could easily wish for new ones with the DBs. So, since Goku was talking in general, there is no reason to assume that he isn't including Vegetto.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:both Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Potara in Battle of Gods.
Actually, Rou Kaioshin doesn't have them.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Given the way the earrings are treated
How are they treated? Since all 6 Kaioshin we've seen had them, and even an attendant, they don't sound like they are hard to obtain.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Herms' BoG Strength Run-Down - How accurate is it?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:10 pm

I don't think the "merge" word means the same like the fusion does. Merging with Vegeta means more to become Vegetto if there is a word in Japanese for merging! And do not forget that Gogeta was anime-only character. I'm not saying Goku and Vegeta could have not known how to perform tha fusion dance, but it's safer to use the potaras. I can give credit that Goku would be able to used the potaras in that case if that was reasonable, but Goku said it wasn't. I think for Goku was clear after withnessing how easily was he defeated by Beerus than he can not be that strong and fast even being Vegetto.
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