Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Rockman X
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:15 am

Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Rockman X » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:47 am

Okay first off all i'm not going to accept that "So&So said someone was stronger or weaker so it proves this character is stronger" no it doesn't!

Most of the DBZ characters either overestimate or underestimate their enemies so i'm just going to refer to direct fights as evidence rather than using absurdly out of context lines like "Goku is afraid of fighting super buu" "Goku was confident to fight kid buu"

Ultimate gohan beat super buu fair&square and now all i want to know is exactly how weak is SSj3 Goku compared to him? because as far as i can tell SSJ3 Goku could not overpower Kid buu like gohan overpowered Super buu so it only proves that kid buu is as strong as Super buu.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:All that scan proves is that Kid Buu > Fat Buu, not Super Buu.
No it proves that kaioshins weakened majin buu and as long as kais were a part of majin buu he was WEAK and fat buu was the core of super buu who had all the kais inside of him so you do the math on which buu is weaker.
RandomGuy96 wrote:It's never stated that the Kaioshin weakened Super Buu, and it is indirectly stated that they strengthened him.
WHAT!? kais strengthened him? okay how about clips of DBZ ? is that illegal too? whatever i'll just quote the original Jap version of what kai says :-

"His heart through absorption has allowed his power to even be reduced has returned to his original pure evil form without any self-control" if that's not enough in the manga it is clearly stated that kai absorption weakened majin buu and Fat buu is evidently the core of super buu.
yet it is fair to use it against Super Buu, and in fact the only way to stand a chance. Pretty clear.
"pretty clear" in a sense that Superbuu was fused with Goten,trunks,piccolo and Gohan which forced vegeta&goku to fuse.

User avatar
Blade
I Live Here
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:45 pm
Location: Contrary to popular belief, not on Kanzenshuu forums.
Contact:

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Blade » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:23 am

I look at it this way:

1) Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu dramatically, by not only reducing his power, but also by altering his temperament and nature. So essentially, this is why Fat Buu was weaker than both Buff Buu and Kid Buu.

2) Absorbing Southern Kaioshin appears to have made Buu exponentially stronger. So 'Buff Buu' was more powerful than the original Kid Buu.

3) Super Buu appears to have had more access to Buff Buu's power than Fat Buu did, but was still weakened somewhat by Dai Kaoshin's place in Fat Buu's makeup. So Super Buu, whilst being stronger than both Kid Buu or Fat Buu, is weaker than Buff Buu.

This is supported by Goku's assertion that he and Vegeta would be no match for Super Buu, his observation that Buu's 'power was going up' when Buff Buu appeared momentarily, and finally his claim that 'Now we can do something!' once Buu had fully reverted to his original form.

In short:

Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu

In regard to Kid Buu, most of the fearful comments that Goku, Vegeta and Kibitoshin make about him seem to be more related to his wild, unhinged temperament, that unlike his previous forms is more reckless and destructive with his power, and less open to reason.
'Multiculturalism means nothing in Japan, for every outside culture must pass first through the Japanese filter, rendering it entirely Japanese in the process.' - Julian Cope.

User avatar
Rockman X
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Rockman X » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:01 am

Blade wrote:1) Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu dramatically, by not only reducing his power, but also by altering his temperament and nature. So essentially, this is why Fat Buu was weaker than both Buff Buu and Kid Buu.
This is speculative we don't know how strong buff buu was compared to kid buu and as we know it Kais in general weaken buu not only daikaio but also South supreme kai.
2) Absorbing Southern Kaioshin appears to have made Buu exponentially stronger.
kais don't strengthen buu anything kai related like potara earrings is repellent to majin buu.

Watch this video if you're still confused about kai&majin buu > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTUvyIsoUNI
I'm not going to debate on that.. that's a moot point made by goku and as i already stated DBZ characters almost always underestimate/overestimate characters unless they fight we can't tell for sure who is stronger.

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4787
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:11 am

You can't be taken seriously of you're gonna start out a VS debate with "I don't care what the manga/anime says, it's not true!" You have to take in what the characters say. In this case, it's Goku indirectly stating "he'll kill us if we fight him."

Goku and Vegeta would've gotten easily killed by Super Buu. Yet when Goku fought Kid Buu as a SSJ3, he was doing really well until he let the fight drag on, to let Vegeta have a turn.

User avatar
Mystic Buu
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:27 pm
Location: Croatia

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Mystic Buu » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:16 am

Blade wrote:I look at it this way:

1) Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu dramatically, by not only reducing his power, but also by altering his temperament and nature. So essentially, this is why Fat Buu was weaker than both Buff Buu and Kid Buu.

2) Absorbing Southern Kaioshin appears to have made Buu exponentially stronger. So 'Buff Buu' was more powerful than the original Kid Buu.

3) Super Buu appears to have had more access to Buff Buu's power than Fat Buu did, but was still weakened somewhat by Dai Kaoshin's place in Fat Buu's makeup. So Super Buu, whilst being stronger than both Kid Buu or Fat Buu, is weaker than Buff Buu.

This is supported by Goku's assertion that he and Vegeta would be no match for Super Buu, his observation that Buu's 'power was going up' when Buff Buu appeared momentarily, and finally his claim that 'Now we can do something!' once Buu had fully reverted to his original form.

In short:

Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu

In regard to Kid Buu, most of the fearful comments that Goku, Vegeta and Kibitoshin make about him seem to be more related to his wild, unhinged temperament, that unlike his previous forms is more reckless and destructive with his power, and less open to reason.
Good explanation,I also stick with that.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Zephyr » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:25 pm

It's really as simple as this.

When Super Buu was their opponent: "Vegeta, we have to fuse!"

When Kid Buu was their opponent: "Aww yeah Vegeta, we can take him!" *breaks Potara*

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5577
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:02 pm

Super Buu. There is no cogent argument otherwise.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
hleV
Banned
Posts: 3325
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by hleV » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:05 pm

There is way more evidence to Evil Boo being superior to Pure Boo, so the conclusion should be clear to anyone who isn't blinded by their pre-made opinions or fanboyism.

User avatar
Super Vegetto
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:18 pm

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Super Vegetto » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Nothing compering those two, but Goku can't deflect that ?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”

User avatar
Darkprince410
I Live Here
Posts: 2266
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm

Rockman X wrote:I'm not going to debate on that.. that's a moot point made by goku and as i already stated DBZ characters almost always underestimate/overestimate characters unless they fight we can't tell for sure who is stronger.
That's actually rarely true, rather than always being true. Unless the individual they're estimating the strength of is knowingly holding back (in the cases of the different Buus this is never suggested), there's rarely ever a situation of overestimating or underestimating their strength. Goku knew full well he and Vegeta couldn't defeat Evil Buu upon leaving, and insisted that if they're not going to use the Potaras, they should try to weaken him further. Then when Evil Buu reverted to Kaioushin Buu, it was established that he was getting stronger rather than weaker (meaning that the fat Dai Kaioushin's influence, now gone, was what weakened him). Then when he reverted to Pure Buu, Goku commented that he was now at a level to where they could get something done with him, indicating that he had lost power and beforehand was too strong for them to handle.
Super Vegetto wrote:Nothing compering those two, but Goku can't deflect that ?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”
We've seen before that even if a blast is weaker than the target, if the size and force behind it is sufficient enough (Freeza being unable to stop the Genki Dama, Cell not being able to counter Tenshinhan's Shin Ki Kou Hou, etc.), then the target cannot block or deflect it.

User avatar
OWmyDragonBallz
Regular
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:45 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Rockman X wrote:I'm not going to debate on that.. that's a moot point made by goku and as i already stated DBZ characters almost always underestimate/overestimate characters unless they fight we can't tell for sure who is stronger.
That's actually rarely true, rather than always being true. Unless the individual they're estimating the strength of is knowingly holding back (in the cases of the different Buus this is never suggested), there's rarely ever a situation of overestimating or underestimating their strength. Goku knew full well he and Vegeta couldn't defeat Evil Buu upon leaving, and insisted that if they're not going to use the Potaras, they should try to weaken him further. Then when Evil Buu reverted to Kaioushin Buu, it was established that he was getting stronger rather than weaker (meaning that the fat Dai Kaioushin's influence, now gone, was what weakened him). Then when he reverted to Pure Buu, Goku commented that he was now at a level to where they could get something done with him, indicating that he had lost power and beforehand was too strong for them to handle.
Super Vegetto wrote:Nothing compering those two, but Goku can't deflect that ?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”
We've seen before that even if a blast is weaker than the target, if the size and force behind it is sufficient enough (Freeza being unable to stop the Genki Dama, Cell not being able to counter Tenshinhan's Shin Ki Kou Hou, etc.), then the target cannot block or deflect it.
But doesn't the force behind it get determined by how powerful it is? But anyway, I guess you are right seeing as how much weaker Tenshinhan is than Cell is in any form. I actually saw it as that if you start creating a ki blast of that magnitude, it manipulates your ki and keeps stacking up.
For example. Piccolo was weaker than Raditz, but Piccolo's Makankosappo > Raditz.
That is a clear clue how Goku would have wiped out Pure Boo. They were roughly even in their fight, but due to limitations in a living body with SSJ3, Goku failed to achieve his goal into destroying him.

User avatar
OWmyDragonBallz
Regular
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:48 pm

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
Rockman X wrote:I'm not going to debate on that.. that's a moot point made by goku and as i already stated DBZ characters almost always underestimate/overestimate characters unless they fight we can't tell for sure who is stronger.
That's actually rarely true, rather than always being true. Unless the individual they're estimating the strength of is knowingly holding back (in the cases of the different Buus this is never suggested), there's rarely ever a situation of overestimating or underestimating their strength. Goku knew full well he and Vegeta couldn't defeat Evil Buu upon leaving, and insisted that if they're not going to use the Potaras, they should try to weaken him further. Then when Evil Buu reverted to Kaioushin Buu, it was established that he was getting stronger rather than weaker (meaning that the fat Dai Kaioushin's influence, now gone, was what weakened him). Then when he reverted to Pure Buu, Goku commented that he was now at a level to where they could get something done with him, indicating that he had lost power and beforehand was too strong for them to handle.
Super Vegetto wrote:Nothing compering those two, but Goku can't deflect that ?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”
We've seen before that even if a blast is weaker than the target, if the size and force behind it is sufficient enough (Freeza being unable to stop the Genki Dama, Cell not being able to counter Tenshinhan's Shin Ki Kou Hou, etc.), then the target cannot block or deflect it.
But doesn't the force behind it get determined by how powerful it is? Freeza wasn't even full power when the Genki Dama launched to him. But anyway, I guess you are right seeing as how much weaker Tenshinhan is than Cell is in any form. I actually saw it as that if you start creating a ki blast of that magnitude, it manipulates your ki and keeps stacking up.
For example. Piccolo was weaker than Raditz, but Piccolo's Makankosappo > Raditz.
That is a clear clue how Goku would have wiped out Pure Boo. They were roughly even in their fight, but due to limitations in a living body with SSJ3, Goku failed to achieve his goal into destroying him.

sekzee
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:52 pm

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by sekzee » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:08 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Goku and Vegeta would've gotten easily killed by Super Buu. Yet when Goku fought Kid Buu as a SSJ3, he was doing really well until he let the fight drag on, to let Vegeta have a turn.
False. Goku confirms it had nothing to do with Vegeta.

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4787
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:30 pm

sekzee wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Goku and Vegeta would've gotten easily killed by Super Buu. Yet when Goku fought Kid Buu as a SSJ3, he was doing really well until he let the fight drag on, to let Vegeta have a turn.
False. Goku confirms it had nothing to do with Vegeta.
My point still stands.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3064
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:12 pm

We can't tell for sure. Evil Boo was said to be stronger than both Goku & Vegeta (without fusion), but he never directly fights them in manga. They hoped they could defeat Pure Boo, but the situation turned completely out of their control. Even SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta failed to accomplish their promises to defeat Pure Boo.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8784
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:25 pm

No it proves that kaioshins weakened majin buu and as long as kais were a part of majin buu he was WEAK and fat buu was the core of super buu who had all the kais inside of him so you do the math on which buu is weaker.
It doesn't prove anything. Dai Kaioshin is mentioned to have weakened Buu down into Fat Buu. Super Buu is stated to be stronger than both Fat Buu and SS3 Goku, who was equal to if not slightly stronger than Pure Buu.

As hlev noted, there's absolutely no reason to believe Super Buu is weaker unless you're a fanboy going in with preconceived notions.
WHAT!? kais strengthened him? okay how about clips of DBZ ? is that illegal too? whatever i'll just quote the original Jap version of what kai says :-

"His heart through absorption has allowed his power to even be reduced has returned to his original pure evil form without any self-control" if that's not enough in the manga it is clearly stated that kai absorption weakened majin buu and Fat buu is evidently the core of super buu.
DB anime means shit. He was never stated to be weakened by both asborptions in the manga. Only the Dai Kaioshin is mentioned having weakened him. Just keep making stuff up, though, it's quite amusing.

Again, Goku stated that Super Buu would slaughter him easily, then fought evenly with Pure Buu. I'm not sure what else you want.

I'd also like to note that Goku said Gotenks was stronger than him well before Gotenks obtained SS3 (which greatly shocked Goku).
"pretty clear" in a sense that Superbuu was fused with Goten,trunks,piccolo and Gohan which forced vegeta&goku to fuse.
Apparently you missed the part where he recommended using fusion against unfused base Super Buu.

When Super Buu was their opponent: "Vegeta, we have to fuse!"

When Kid Buu was their opponent: "Aww yeah Vegeta, we can take him!" *breaks Potara*
Apparently, not simple enough.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Rockman X
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Rockman X » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:08 am

Zephyr wrote:It's really as simple as this.

When Super Buu was their opponent: "Vegeta, we have to fuse!"

When Kid Buu was their opponent: "Aww yeah Vegeta, we can take him!" *breaks Potara*
I'm talking about This super buu :- Image

You are talking about THIS Super buu :-
Image
Dbzfan94 wrote: "I don't care what the manga/anime says, it's not true!"
Hey stop straw manning me! i never said i don't care about anime/manga i just said that not everything characters say is true like vegeta gloating about his power against Freeza's final form now how good was vegeta's speculation of Freeza's power? not even close!

DBZ is infamous for characters overestimating/underestimating their enemies.. so only direct fights counts as evidence in this case and as i see it Ultimate gohan and SSj3 Goku are pretty similar in power levels with gohan having little bit more power.
Yet when Goku fought Kid Buu as a SSJ3, he was doing really well until he let the fight drag on, to let Vegeta have a turn.
Goku was not holding back vegeta says that goku would be able to kill buu at full power and he clearly says

"That's what i've been trying to do but i haven't been able to do it yet!"

Goku clearly underestimated Buu's power and he admits it in the manga "Like i said he's stronger than i imagined".
Last edited by Rockman X on Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Rockman X
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Rockman X » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:27 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Apparently you missed the part where he recommended using fusion against unfused base Super Buu.
OH PLEASE WHERE IS THIS PART?? I must have really missed this one! Because all i have seen is goku fusing to fight GOHAN absorbed Super buu.. oh wait.. unless you're thinking that SSj goten&SSJ trunks are anywhere near as strong SSj goku and stood a chance against fat buu without fusion.
Dai Kaioshin is mentioned to have weakened Buu down into Fat Buu. Super Buu is stated to be stronger than both Fat Buu and SS3 Goku, who was equal to if not slightly stronger than Pure Buu.
Dude i don't care who said what! i refer to direct fights as evidence not vague statements made by characters.

By your unrealistic power scaling Gohan is like 1000 times stronger than SSJ3 goku which i don't think is the case at all.
there's absolutely no reason to believe Super Buu is weaker.
Yeah there is like fat buu weakening Super buu?
I'm not sure what else you want.
ACTUAL FIGHTS as evidence,thank you.
I'd also like to note that Goku said Gotenks was
Actual fights please.

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Cetra » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:32 am

Rockman X wrote:
Zephyr wrote:It's really as simple as this.

When Super Buu was their opponent: "Vegeta, we have to fuse!"

When Kid Buu was their opponent: "Aww yeah Vegeta, we can take him!" *breaks Potara*
I'm talking about This super buu :- Image

You are talking about THIS Super buu :-
Image
Not exactly. Goku also wanted to stop Vegeta from breaking the Earrings inside of Boo and when he lost power he complained about Vegeta doing so. However, I also think it is not as clear as it is normally said. Goku often talks about an opponent being so strong while he himself has some jokers and when he wanted to help Gohan he even went to fight Boo without a plan right before the Elder Kaioshin said "how do you plan to beat him? even you two are not gonna do this" so at that time he was confident enough. Even Akira Toriyama said about the Demonic Entity Boo he has unknown dimensions of powers that probably not even Boo himself knows. When I think aboutn that, it also reminds me of Goku and Gohan themselves.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

User avatar
Rockman X
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Super buu Vs Kid buu who is stronger

Post by Rockman X » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:42 am

Cetra wrote:Goku also wanted to stop Vegeta from breaking the Earrings inside of Boo and when he lost power he complained about Vegeta doing so.
Again a vauge statement made by goku because he was uncertain about buu's power levels,goku was unsure about his SSj3 form's powers and if it stood chance against buu after transforming.

Post Reply