Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:02 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Going by "Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return" 's manga, I would say regular Gotenks is perhaps stronger than Freeza, since Aka was able to fight back. Maybe this is what Goku had in his mind when he said Goten & Trunks would be fine.
How would that be what he had in his mind when he said they'd be fine? When he said that, it was before Abo and Cado had merged, and he was just going off the boys normal strength in comparison to the strength of the two. Fusion wasn't something he anticipated them doing because it wasn't something he felt they'd need.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:33 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Going by "Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return" 's manga, I would say regular Gotenks is perhaps stronger than Freeza, since Aka was able to fight back. Maybe this is what Goku had in his mind when he said Goten & Trunks would be fine.
How would that be what he had in his mind when he said they'd be fine? When he said that, it was before Abo and Cado had merged, and he was just going off the boys normal strength in comparison to the strength of the two. Fusion wasn't something he anticipated them doing because it wasn't something he felt they'd need.
Because if things get worse they can use fusion and/or transform into Super Saiyan. Well, Tarble said Goku didn't have the strenght needed to defeat Abo & Cado until seeing his Super Saiyan form. It is like saying regular Goku doesn't have the strenght needed to defeat Freeza. For me, it is pretty straightforward, the merged Aka is the one that rivals Freeza.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Going by "Heya! Son Goku and His Friends Return" 's manga, I would say regular Gotenks is perhaps stronger than Freeza, since Aka was able to fight back. Maybe this is what Goku had in his mind when he said Goten & Trunks would be fine.
How would that be what he had in his mind when he said they'd be fine? When he said that, it was before Abo and Cado had merged, and he was just going off the boys normal strength in comparison to the strength of the two. Fusion wasn't something he anticipated them doing because it wasn't something he felt they'd need.
Because if things get worse they can use fusion and/or transform into Super Saiyan. Well, Tarble said Goku didn't have the strenght needed to defeat Abo & Cado until seeing his Super Saiyan form. It is like saying regular Goku doesn't have the strenght needed to defeat Freeza. For me, it is pretty straightforward, the merged Aka is the one that rivals Freeza.
First off, Goku was lounging around and eating at the time that Tarble made that comment. We see from his scouter that Goku's strength was rising dramatically before he actually transformed into a Super Saiya-jin, so him saying Goku wasn't strong enough is rather irrelevant because he was only judging it normally. Likewise, why would Tarble have ever seen Aka before? Abo and Cado were individually strong enough to defeat him with ease, so why would they ever have to merge? If they weren't anywhere near Freeza's level individually, Goku or Vegeta would have said as much (as they were unaware of their ability to merge), but Goku basically just shrugs it off that Freeza wasn't that powerful of an enemy in hindsight, and the boys would be perfect to fight Abo and Cado.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:56 pm

Abo and Kado are stronger than 1st form Freeza, and are nowhere near 100% Freeza. That's the form Tarble mentally pictures when talking about their strength. Though I wonder exactly how he knew that. He can't sense ki, and his scouter should have broke.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:16 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Abo and Kado are stronger than 1st form Freeza, and are nowhere near 100% Freeza. That's the form Tarble mentally pictures when talking about their strength. Though I wonder exactly how he knew that. He can't sense ki, and his scooter should have broke.
Either that, or all of Freeza's henchmen just had really cheap scouters. Freeza had to have had something measure his power for his first two forms.

Or maybe scouter technology has improved in the however many years it has been since Freeza's death.
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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:21 pm

Freeza's scouter broke when he tried to scan Vegeta.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:25 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Freeza's scouter broke when he tried to scan Vegeta.
Yeah, his replacement scouter. Who's to say it wasn't a cheap, low quality one as well?
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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:28 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Freeza's scouter broke when he tried to scan Vegeta.
Yeah, his replacement scouter. Who's to say it wasn't a cheap, low quality one as well?
Because it was one of the advanced scouters that Ginyu brought when the Tokusentai were called in.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:31 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Freeza's scouter broke when he tried to scan Vegeta.
Yeah, his replacement scouter. Who's to say it wasn't a cheap, low quality one as well?
Because it was one of the advanced scouters that Ginyu brought when the Tokusentai were called in.
Did they say that the scouters the Ginyus brought were more advanced? I only remember Zarbon's being referred to as such.

Either way, the Jump special is set years after the Freeza Arc. Tarble could have easily picked up a better scouter in that time.
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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:51 am

Darkprince410 wrote:First off, Goku was lounging around and eating at the time that Tarble made that comment. We see from his scouter that Goku's strength was rising dramatically before he actually transformed into a Super Saiya-jin, so him saying Goku wasn't strong enough is rather irrelevant because he was only judging it normally. Likewise, why would Tarble have ever seen Aka before? Abo and Cado were individually strong enough to defeat him with ease, so why would they ever have to merge? If they weren't anywhere near Freeza's level individually, Goku or Vegeta would have said as much (as they were unaware of their ability to merge), but Goku basically just shrugs it off that Freeza wasn't that powerful of an enemy in hindsight, and the boys would be perfect to fight Abo and Cado.
Then, why Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan? He could stop his power-up in his base form and prove to be enough. If regular Goku is stronger than both regular Goten & Trunks he should be able to defeat the two guys without transform. About Aka, neither of them seemed to be surprised, it's like Tarble was aware of their ability to merge, I don't think they have trained to be at Freeza's level.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:31 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:First off, Goku was lounging around and eating at the time that Tarble made that comment. We see from his scouter that Goku's strength was rising dramatically before he actually transformed into a Super Saiya-jin, so him saying Goku wasn't strong enough is rather irrelevant because he was only judging it normally. Likewise, why would Tarble have ever seen Aka before? Abo and Cado were individually strong enough to defeat him with ease, so why would they ever have to merge? If they weren't anywhere near Freeza's level individually, Goku or Vegeta would have said as much (as they were unaware of their ability to merge), but Goku basically just shrugs it off that Freeza wasn't that powerful of an enemy in hindsight, and the boys would be perfect to fight Abo and Cado.
Then, why Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan? He could stop his power-up in his base form and prove to be enough. If regular Goku is stronger than both regular Goten & Trunks he should be able to defeat the two guys without transform. About Aka, neither of them seemed to be surprised, it's like Tarble was aware of their ability to merge, I don't think they have trained to be at Freeza's level.
Just to show that they could raise their battle powers at will and could raise it to extremely high levels if they wanted to. As we see, Tarble's scouter blew up as soon as Goku actually transformed, so he very likely didn't even get a readout of Goku's Ssj battle power beforehand. Likewise, we never see Tarble's reaction to Abo and Cado merging to create Aka, so we don't know whether or not he was surprised by it. However, we do see that he and Gure were visibly scared and worried just by the two of them being there. Goku, however, never questioned Abo and Cado being Freeza's level of strength when they arrived and Goten and Trunks went to go fight them. Tarble just says that they're at Freeza level now, Goku responds that Freeza wasn't that powerful in hindsight, and that they'd be perfect for the boys. Since he (Goku) doesn't know that Abo and Cado can merge, he's judging them individually as being Freeza's strength.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:02 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:First off, Goku was lounging around and eating at the time that Tarble made that comment. We see from his scouter that Goku's strength was rising dramatically before he actually transformed into a Super Saiya-jin, so him saying Goku wasn't strong enough is rather irrelevant because he was only judging it normally. Likewise, why would Tarble have ever seen Aka before? Abo and Cado were individually strong enough to defeat him with ease, so why would they ever have to merge? If they weren't anywhere near Freeza's level individually, Goku or Vegeta would have said as much (as they were unaware of their ability to merge), but Goku basically just shrugs it off that Freeza wasn't that powerful of an enemy in hindsight, and the boys would be perfect to fight Abo and Cado.
Then, why Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan? He could stop his power-up in his base form and prove to be enough. If regular Goku is stronger than both regular Goten & Trunks he should be able to defeat the two guys without transform. About Aka, neither of them seemed to be surprised, it's like Tarble was aware of their ability to merge, I don't think they have trained to be at Freeza's level.
Just to show that they could raise their battle powers at will and could raise it to extremely high levels if they wanted to. As we see, Tarble's scouter blew up as soon as Goku actually transformed, so he very likely didn't even get a readout of Goku's Ssj battle power beforehand. Likewise, we never see Tarble's reaction to Abo and Cado merging to create Aka, so we don't know whether or not he was surprised by it. However, we do see that he and Gure were visibly scared and worried just by the two of them being there. Goku, however, never questioned Abo and Cado being Freeza's level of strength when they arrived and Goten and Trunks went to go fight them. Tarble just says that they're at Freeza level now, Goku responds that Freeza wasn't that powerful in hindsight, and that they'd be perfect for the boys. Since he (Goku) doesn't know that Abo and Cado can merge, he's judging them individually as being Freeza's strength.
I see some surprised reactions only when Aka uses his "wahaha no ha" technique, until then Aka was doing things they expected from someone at Freeza's level. If Abo & Cado are at this level before merging, regular Goten & Trunks would be stronger than Freeza, which is contradicted by BoG's suggestion that regular Saiyans are still weaker than him. I just chose to see Aka being at Freeza's level because it's sounds more reasonable for me. Two villains that once were toe-to-toe with Ginyu Special Squad, this level looks more suited for them.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:08 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: I see some surprised reactions only when Aka uses his "wahaha no ha" technique, until then Aka was doing things they expected from someone at Freeza's level. If Abo & Cado are at this level before merging, regular Goten & Trunks would be stronger than Freeza, which is contradicted by BoG's suggestion that regular Saiyans are still weaker than him. I just chose to see Aka being at Freeza's level because it's sounds more reasonable for me. Two villains that once were toe-to-toe with Ginyu Special Squad, this level looks more suited for them.
Remember though, Tarble's likely only aware of Freeza's first form, the one that caps out at 530,000, as Freeza himself established that outside of his parents, only those on Namek ever witnessed him transforming, and thus wouldn't know the strength of any of his later forms. At best, it's possible that he was aware of the strength of Freeza's 2nd form, given that Freeza possibly had its battle power analyzed at one point, which is how he came to the conclusion that it was over a million (the machine probably exploded prior to reaching the completed number, but at least gave him some indication of its strength). Nevertheless, Tarble wouldn't have access to the knowledge of the strength of Freeza's true form, which is the level that Beerus believed that Goku wasn't able to reach in his base form.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Gogeta8001 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:51 pm

I guess this depends on whether or not you believe Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre

If you believe the above statement, you would have a huge monstrous gap between SSJ3 Goku. And even if you didn't believe it, Mystic Gohan would come out a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku since it was established that SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

So there's two possible chains...

Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks Post > Super Buu >> SSJ2 Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Post > Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku ~ Kid Buu

Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu >> SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku ~ Kid Buu

My gut feeling is that the second chain is going to be more well received on this forum so either way theirs a pretty big gap beetween Mystic Gohan/SSJ3 Goku and Super Buu/Kid Buu

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by gojirason » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:07 am

On top of all of the existing implications of Kaioshin ki not being usable for Buu's revival, the removal of the Potara's effect in buu's body, the ambiguity of the statement in the manga (and confirmation that both made him weaker in the anime—something I see zero reason to ignore as it might have even been Toriyama's idea—we don't know), Battle of Gods has now confirmed for absolute sure that godly ki is distinctly different, and we know that all Kaioshins have it.
Battle of Gods also conveniently showed Vegeta suddenly and randomly growing stronger when he stopped holding himself back from fighting Beerus in conjunction with his emotions; something Goku would have definitely been experiencing at the time on both fronts.

Even without addressing how Goku was afraid of the Evil Buu (and he was afraid of Pure Buu too, until it became clear they couldn't hide from him), that him technically being able to kill Pure Buu doesn't mean he couldn't kill Evil Buu under the same circumstances, guidebook statements*, and general assumptions that imply narrative elements that are nonsensical and completely inconsistent with Toriyama's style**, and the fact that Gohan's energy was not enough to beat Pure Buu, that first bit about the Kaioshin energy is more than enough for me to be satisfied.

Frankly I don't really know why it ever went past Gohan's ki just not being enough and that he was stated to have gotten stronger after Good Buu was removed, with the Anime firmly cementing his strength, but it has, and all because of what is a much more vague set of dialogue that isn't even contradictory. But there's still more evidence against it anyway, and nothing that's actually concrete that doesn't involve some form of interpretation of motive, not purely power, (which can be addressed without favoring Evil Buu) in favor of the Evil Buu. Pure Buu is stronger; it's essentially stated fact in the manga, and absolute stated fact in the anime, stated fact in the databooks, and proven by concept in Battle of Gods.

Evil Buu has literally one line of dialogue suggesting he's stronger than Goku (there are multiple lines suggesting the same about Pure Buu), and that somehow outweighs everything else. The logic is selective and essentially attempts to create a not-small number of inconsistencies and leaves several aspects of the universe unexplained despite clear implications of what the truth is; like why every single Kaioshin makes Buu weaker, except for South Kaioshin (who shouldn't improve Buu more than absorbing SSJ Gohan would anyway).

I don't want to hear anything about Goku and Evil Buu until they can address the black and white statements that Gohan's energy could erase Evil Buu wasn't enough to kill Pure Buu without making blatant assumptions about how all of Gohan's energy is weaker than Gohan, because that's kind of what that entails.

*Goku and Pure Buu, more so Buu were stated to be the strongest in the universe at the time of Buu's defeat (when Gohan was alive, and had even contributed his energy) according to Daizenshuu 2, "Human Drama" and "Final Battle" sections. "All Battles" section also states why Goku wants to fight Pure Buu.
**Have him grow stronger for zero screen time and not actually say he got weaker (therefore assumption that he got weaker at all based on indirect statements in favor of direct ones like "he's getting stronger") at the exact same time exposition is being done on Pure Buu being the most dangerous, have the power scale drop for the final climactic battle in a series where escalation always goes up, have the least physically imposing form actually be weaker in a Toriyama work when it's also the climax.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Nazi Cola » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:10 am

Ah, Gojira. Haven't seen you since that one forum you and Savage argued on after MFG shut down.
On top of all of the existing implications of Kaioshin ki not being usable for Buu's revival, the removal of the Potara's effect in buu's body, the ambiguity of the statement in the manga (and confirmation that both made him weaker in the anime—something I see zero reason to ignore as it might have even been Toriyama's idea—we don't know)
Daizenshuu 7 says only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo. I don't know where in the anime it says both weakened him either, busta.
Even without addressing how Goku was afraid of the Evil Buu (and he was afraid of Pure Buu too, until it became clear they couldn't hide from him)
When was Goku ever afraid of Pure Boo? Right from the outset he was excited that Boo was at a level he deemed capable of beating. The only time he was afraid was when Boo created that planet buster.
Frankly I don't really know why it ever went past Gohan's ki just not being enough
Gohan didn't donate his ki. He gave his genki. That's how the Genki-Dama works.
and that he was stated to have gotten stronger after Good Buu was removed
Where? If you mean during the final battle on the Kaioshin planet, I don't remember a single thing being said about Pure Boo's power increasing after he spat out Good Boo.
Pure Buu is stronger; it's essentially stated fact in the manga, and absolute stated fact in the anime, stated fact in the databooks, and proven by concept in Battle of Gods.
For one, the anime is inconsistent in its message. It does say three times that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo, but it also doesn't bother doing away with Goku's incessant nagging that he and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo without some form of fusion. Bootenks and Boohan also assert that they're the strongest Boos. Goku's ability to wipe out Pure Boo is kept in line with the manga, too, which would make him able to beat said versions of Boo, when it was shown and stated he definitely could not.

Secondly, different guidebooks affirm different things. Some say Pure Boo is the strongest, some confirm that only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo, etc.

I don't consider BOG canon myself so I'm not really going to touch on any of those points concerning it...
Evil Buu has literally one line of dialogue suggesting he's stronger than Goku (there are multiple lines suggesting the same about Pure Buu), and that somehow outweighs everything else. The logic is selective and essentially attempts to create a not-small number of inconsistencies and leaves several aspects of the universe unexplained despite clear implications of what the truth is; like why every single Kaioshin makes Buu weaker, except for South Kaioshin (who shouldn't improve Buu more than absorbing SSJ Gohan would anyway).
You'd likely be drawing the last concept from Gohan's ability to remove the Z Sword, wouldn't you? I'd disagree and say it's inconclusive at best, given we have no idea if South Kaioshin tried to do the same, not to mention Kibito spoke down to Gohan, implying a power like that could've existed already. Personally, I don't see a reason encouraging South Kaioshin to have tried removing the sword, but others see it differently, claiming there'd be no reason for him not to have tried to further assert his dominance in physical strength, so alas.
CatouttaHell wrote:I guess he's just impossibly powerful and he now gets thrills from letting things go as much to hell as possible before busting out his ultimate power and ending the villain or some shit.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by gojirason » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:03 am

Nazi Cola wrote:Ah, Gojira. Haven't seen you since that one forum you and Savage argued on after MFG shut down.
Man that was a long time ago...
How've ya been?
Nazi Cola wrote:
On top of all of the existing implications of Kaioshin ki not being usable for Buu's revival, the removal of the Potara's effect in buu's body, the ambiguity of the statement in the manga (and confirmation that both made him weaker in the anime—something I see zero reason to ignore as it might have even been Toriyama's idea—we don't know)
Daizenshuu 7 says only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo. I don't know where in the anime it says both weakened him either, busta.
It's implied by the fact that Pure Buu is the explicit strongest Buu of all.
Nazi Cola wrote:
Even without addressing how Goku was afraid of the Evil Buu (and he was afraid of Pure Buu too, until it became clear they couldn't hide from him)
When was Goku ever afraid of Pure Boo? Right from the outset he was excited that Boo was at a level he deemed capable of beating. The only time he was afraid was when Boo created that planet buster.
No that's not quite right.
After Buu destroyed Earth, and Goku and Vegeta are on Kaioshinkai, Elder Kaioshin insists they use the potara (heavily implying they're weaker, and he's a guy who knows his power and has seen Goku in SSJ3 before). Goku almost accepts but refuses on the grounds that Buu is no longer merged with anyone at all (Which Evil Buu was), not power, and that neither he nor Vegeta likes fusing. He even admits he's being selfish and that it's really dangerous right now—that's not confidence.
Furthermore he says very clearly that they're going to come up with a plan to beat him without fusion, not just go 1v1 him like they ended up doing when backed into a corner, and that by doing so he's willingly letting lots of innocent aliens get killed in the meantime. Here's the relevant quote.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
He's not saying at all he thinks he can beat Buu as is. He's even saying the exact opposite, and Elder Kaioshin is berating him for being an idiot. The implication is that running to him now will get them killed, and he's being stupid for personal reasons. Keep in mind the only reason Vegeta agreed to fuse at all to begin with was to save his son inside Buu, and that was no longer a factor. For all we know Goku felt the same way, and if not, we know he's actually influenced by Vegeta here; both by observation and flat out statement in BoG (canon events or not, it's very valid character analysis from the creator, and frankly the best I recall ever seeing in the series on Goku's part). Daizenshuu also says clearly that Vegeta is the person closest to Goku at this point.

Keep in mind that for all that he didn't want to go confront Evil Buu as it was, he got rather cocky when actually confronted by Evil Buu inside his body. It mirrors his behavior when Pure Buu tracks them down rather well; don't seek it out, but don't run from it when it becomes clear you have to. That's all.

Elder Kaioshin is giving this reaction when he's not even sure whether they're not going to fuse at all yet:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P10.2
Context: as Goku and Vegeta prepare to fight pure Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “Fr-from the looks of it, they don’t intend to perform Fusion either…Shi-shit…! Saiyans are so troublesome…!”
Which implies regular fusion might not be sufficient. Given Goku halfway through the fight regrets not using the Potara let alone not fusing, might imply something to this effect as well.

But he was still at least certain that they were going to double team Buu:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.3
Context: as Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to decide who fights Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-those dimwits! Th-they intend to fight one at a time?! They’re not gonna fight together?!”
That really doesn't make it seem like Goku vs. Pure Buu is something at all to be confident about.
Nazi Cola wrote:Gohan didn't donate his ki. He gave his genki. That's how the Genki-Dama works.
It's also all the Genki he could give. If nothing else, Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to have both Gohan and Gotenks come fight Buu. Personally, I really don't think Vegeta was just being an idiot, I think it really was the option of surest success.

It is stated very, very clearly that if Goku and Vegeta lose there and now that the universe is doomed, in both the manga/anime, and at least twice in the Daizenshuu, along with calling it a decisive battle.
None of that makes any sense if when they fail, either Gohan or Gotenks can easily wipe out Buu.
You could argue that it's just for narrative tension, but in order for that narrative tension to exist, certain things must be true. It's not as if they were holding the idiot ball and forgot about it, Goku even suggests it. It reduces the final climactic battle of the series from being that into a little party just to make Goku feel special. That's not true at all, he really did save everyone. He even states clearly after Buu is dead that if it weren't for Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu that Pure Buu would have done in everyone else, in direct response to Vegeta's statement that if Mr. Buu gives rise to Pure Buu again that it would definitely be the end of the universe.
That obviously includes Gohan and Gotenks.

Then there's the general context behind Goku waiting for 10 years to fight Buu again, when Gohan is right there. Yeah, Gohan is his son, but I don't think that means all that much to him—it's not like he would fight to the death anyway, he explicitly wanted Uub to be a good guy. He certainly didn't have issues fighting Gohan when they were training in the past. He also deems it necessary that he'll have gotten better in their rematch so one could technically construe that as Buu being considerably stronger than Goku. He wants to fight Uub so bad, he's going to train him for that sole purpose, it's his main goal in life after Pure Buu.

All the idea of seperating Shouki and Yuuki from Genki does is give Goku room to suddenly get stronger in the final battle for growing a pair and doing what he wants for the first time in the arc, and not what he thinks is a good idea. We do see the exact same thing in Battle of Gods from Vegeta.

Daizenshuu does technically say Goku is the strongest at that point (supported by Vegeta's monologue about how Goku is number 1, and his statements to Goku that both he's stronger than he imagined and the only one who could fight Buu, and virtually all other material (Movie 13, Jump Super Anime Tour, Battle of Gods) paint a picture of Goku being stronger than Gohan after the Buu Saga. Daizenshuu 7 also very clearly and carefully restrains from calling Gotenks stronger than Goku, just Vegeta.
Obviously something has to get ignored here no matter how one interprets it, and I'd rather go with the larger bulk of material and will always go with what makes the most sense in regards to the drama. "Power levels are bullshit!" after all.

I still stand by the idea that Goku believing he could kill Pure Buu doesn't mean he couldn't kill Evil Buu under the same circumstances, even if he was sure he would lose that fight. It's not like weaker characters haven't overpowered stronger ones with full power attacks before in the series, though it is rare.
Nazi Cola wrote:
and that he was stated to have gotten stronger after Good Buu was removed
Where? If you mean during the final battle on the Kaioshin planet, I don't remember a single thing being said about Pure Boo's power increasing after he spat out Good Boo.
The scene I'm referring to is when he's becoming Pure Buu to begin with. At the point when Pure Buu spit Good Buu out, Good Buu had already been completely separated from him; he wouldn't have been *Pure* if that weren't the case, and we see him being removed anyway, it's why Pure Buu is there.

There's literally absolute zero purpose in saying he got stronger in that transformation scene at all unless he did and stayed that way. The entire purpose of noting he got smaller (and if you closely at the panel, they're still sweating and nervous. I really think they were just being hopeful and nervous, like when Piccolo thought that base Gotenks could beat Evil Buu) was just to prove how dangerous he is and prove them wrong and that their plan to make him weaker backfired hard. Just like showing how Fat Buu was a frolicking tub of lard was just meant to be a shock when it turned out he was lethal. It's all the more convincingly false due to Toriyama's incredibly consistent trend of the most powerful form of a character or villain being the smallest and least imposing and more so than that, the final form *always* being the strongest. There's no precedence at all for otherwise.

Toriyama may not be the greatest storyteller in the world, but he's never done something so blatantly irrelevant and misleading in a serious expositional scene before, ever. I can't honestly recall anybody doing something on that scale in anything else ever.

I also find the idea that "most troublesome and dangerous" has nothing to do with power (when ki was stated to be rising) to be overly analyzing semantics to the extreme. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that kind of language has been used in other points of the series in reference to more powerful persons.

Even without that, Kaioshin explicitly stated that gaining a heart made him weaker, and that he's back to the way he was; ergo he's regained his lost power.
Makes zero sense to say that if he just got weaker. To me that even seems like a direct statement that he just got stronger (accompanied by Goku and Vegeta saying his ki was increasing in the same scene from a different vantage point).

Adding onto this, Evil Buu very specifically does not say he'll get weaker when Vegeta is threatening to yank Fat Buu out, despite that being what Vegeta is threatening. Goku and Vegeta actually take specific notice of his reaction and those words, which leads into the next scene, where they realize his ki is growing. It's a fairly common tool, and it loses all of it's narrative strength if they did actually succeed in making him weaker. The whole point in the first place was that their attempt at fixing things went completely FUBAR.

Ask yourself honestly, without taking any power levels or previous statements into account: Do you really believe that Toriyama introduced Buff Buu for no purpose in the story at all? That it was purely meant to confuse the children reading his story?
The answer is hopefully no, but then you have to ask what relevant information you're getting from that sequence, because it has to be relevant in some way.
Introducing a stronger form of Buu to not be used and go into a weaker one without clarifying that's what happened serves neither the story nor the drama any purpose.
Personally I just think that if you look at what the story, with all the attached tropes (original, pure evil, final boss? Totally the strongest for any one of the 3, let alone all of them) and whatnot is trying to say, the answer is pretty clear. Adhering so strictly to single lines about power is why Toriyama did away with Battle Powers in the first place; they're too restricting in telling a story.

One could argue it got a little far away from him in the Buu Saga, but it's not his primary concern, for the same reason Cell can blow up a solar system, but he gets to keep his fights staged on Earth without super high levels of collateral.
Nazi Cola wrote:
Pure Buu is stronger; it's essentially stated fact in the manga, and absolute stated fact in the anime, stated fact in the databooks, and proven by concept in Battle of Gods.
For one, the anime is inconsistent in its message. It does say three times that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo, but it also doesn't bother doing away with Goku's incessant nagging that he and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo without some form of fusion. Bootenks and Boohan also assert that they're the strongest Boos. Goku's ability to wipe out Pure Boo is kept in line with the manga, too, which would make him able to beat said versions of Boo, when it was shown and stated he definitely could not.
I would think that the anime has the same message about Evil Buu would make it clear that it is consistent with the manga, at least as far as Buu's relationships to other characters.
If they said Pure Buu was stronger than Evil Buu, and also said Goku wasn't afraid of Evil Buu, that would paint a completely different picture, but that's not what happened.
It shows that's it's perfectly possible, if not probable or definite by association of the two works, that Goku could say that, and Pure Buu would still be stronger than Evil Buu.

Personally, I go by the combination of everything, and try to get as much information as a I can from all sources, so I obviously don't have the slightest hesitation using the anime. I think the claim stands on it's own, as it should, and the anime just confirms that interpretation or backs it very strongly.
Nazi Cola wrote:Secondly, different guidebooks affirm different things. Some say Pure Boo is the strongest, some confirm that only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo, etc.
Technically speaking, saying Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu is not mutually exclusive from him being weakened by both and/or being stronger than Evil Buu.
Him being the strongest in the universe, when Gohan is alive, is mutually exclusive to him being weaker than Evil Buu.
Nazi Cola wrote:I don't consider BOG canon myself so I'm not really going to touch on any of those points concerning it...
Well it's kind of a big deal in expanding on the nature of the universe and Kaioshins in general.
I'm fairly sure the information is regurgitated in Chozenshuu too. Regardless of ones feelings on the events and contradictions, the information is still part of the setting.
Nazi Cola wrote:
Evil Buu has literally one line of dialogue suggesting he's stronger than Goku (there are multiple lines suggesting the same about Pure Buu), and that somehow outweighs everything else. The logic is selective and essentially attempts to create a not-small number of inconsistencies and leaves several aspects of the universe unexplained despite clear implications of what the truth is; like why every single Kaioshin makes Buu weaker, except for South Kaioshin (who shouldn't improve Buu more than absorbing SSJ Gohan would anyway).
You'd likely be drawing the last concept from Gohan's ability to remove the Z Sword, wouldn't you? I'd disagree and say it's inconclusive at best, given we have no idea if South Kaioshin tried to do the same, not to mention Kibito spoke down to Gohan, implying a power like that could've existed already. Personally, I don't see a reason encouraging South Kaioshin to have tried removing the sword, but others see it differently, claiming there'd be no reason for him not to have tried to further assert his dominance in physical strength, so alas.
I am. I think it's a pretty fair assumption to make; Kibito's words were that many Kaioshin's had tried, and there only used to be 5...
The meaning of the scene is pretty clear in regards to Gohan surpassing all of the Kaioshins. He's there because Kaioshin thinks he can beat Buu, after all. If Kaioshin believe the sword had the power to beat Buu, why wouldn't they have tried using it the first time around? There's much more reason to think he was incapable than capable; it doesn't make any sense to assume that when the exposition on the sword was that none of the Kaioshins for generations could move it, that this one Kaioshin could but never tried.

Yes I suppose Gohan could just have been physically stronger, but it'd be silly for that to be true to such an extent compared to a guy who was theoretically so much stronger than Gohan.
It doesn't match any of our knowledge, and is ascertained solely from the idea that Evil Buu is massively stronger than Pure Buu, when we don't actually know for sure that he powered Buu up at all. Presumably he has all the same traits that makes both Kaioshin and Kibito unusable for Buu's revival; neither of them are especially gentle and kind—Kibito especially is a grump, and he would have obviously had godly ki. The existence of godly ki is not new to Battle of Gods, it's highly implied in the manga to begin with.

I'll also point out that in order to create the gaps people generally seem to think is true with Evil Buu > Pure, and their mechanics for Absorption, South Kaioshin would have needed to have been stronger than Buu himself, to a massive degree even. That's clearly not the case at all.

There are also weird logical disconnects that occur from the idea that Evil Buu is stronger. For example, we know that, regardless of what influence South Kaioshin had, the combined influence of the two had a negative effect on Buu in total.
That combined influence is still in Evil Buu, so it should have still had a net negative effect on his power, if not as severe due to the influence being more indirect. We know it was still a net negative because Buff Buu was still stronger than Evil Buu, so Dai Kaioshin couldn't have suddenly started making Buu stronger.

Then there's the fact that, visual physical regression aside (which only really proves that Buff Buu is somewhere between Evil Buu and Pure Buu in at least one sense evolutionarily, and I would believe power since his change in power was accompanied by the physical changing, and no sudden reversal as he got closer to Pure Buu was *ever* mentioned despite how confusing it would be to people if it weren't), Buu had been cut off from South Kaioshin inside Good Buu at that point, so it doesn't really make a lot of sense for him to have been drawing power off of him. It doesn't make sense for multiple reasons for the power to just vanish into thin air. Kaioshin recognized immediately that he was changing into Pure Buu, not Buff Buu, and it was that eventuality that clearly terrified him the most.

In addition, there's an unmentioned but observed act by Evil Buu that kind of makes clear that he didn't want South Kaioshin in him directly.

When see Fat Buu split, the Pure Evil Buu clearly has the Kaioshins split inside of him as well, as is evidenced by his Dai Kaioshin clothing, extant rationality/speech, and general lack of power.
But when he absorbs Fat Buu, he evidently shoved all Kaioshin influence inside his current grey body (both South and Dai Kaioshin) into Fat Buu, or else they'd have been present inside him when Goku and Vegeta went inside, and Buu wouldn't have reverted to his Pure form. If the purpose of doing such was too make himself stronger by limiting his exposure to limiting influences, but still retain his mind, but South Kaioshin was beneficial in terms of strength, he'd not have done that, he'd have South Kaioshin absorbed directly. But he didn't, he shunted him away.

EDIT: Damn this got big.

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:55 pm

I just read through some Manga scans, it appears only ONE of the Kai's weakened Buu, not both of them that were absorbed..

Think of it this way. If you were to absorb someone and noticed it made you weaker, WOULD you make the SAME mistake TWICE by going on absorbing yet another Kai making you even weaker?? There's no logic in this. Also, Buu clearly has a mastered Ki sensing ability. He zapped himself exactly where Goku and Vegeta were located after going on a multi planet rampage across the galaxy. So please don't tell me he can't tell his own power from a previous point in time.

Super Buu > Pure Buu > Fat Buu.

The Funimation dub's version of Supreme Kai's memory was scewed and improperly scripted. The English dub indicates that both Kai's weakened Buu but actually only 1 of them did so.

As for the comparison between Gohan and Goku.... Remember when Goku powered up to SSJ3 against Fat Buu, and Kabito stated that Saiyan powers aren't meant to be felt from this far away? (From the planet of the Kais) Now flash forward when Gohan is owning Super Buu effortlessly. Clearly Goku can sense Gohan's ki from that exact same planet Kabito stated would be too far to sense anybody else. Get where I'm going? Anyone who says Gohan is inferior to SSJ3 Goku has nothing to back this up. Plus, Goku's reaction of Gohan unleashing his potential, should say something as well.
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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Zephyr » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:02 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Abo and Kado are stronger than 1st form Freeza, and are nowhere near 100% Freeza. That's the form Tarble mentally pictures when talking about their strength. Though I wonder exactly how he knew that. He can't sense ki, and his scouter should have broke.
Perhaps he was speaking in a vague "there's no way anyone could ever hope to defeat him/them!" sense, rather than in terms of raw numbers?

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Re: Strength of Evil Majin Buu & Pure Majin Buu

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:12 am

Zephyr wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Abo and Kado are stronger than 1st form Freeza, and are nowhere near 100% Freeza. That's the form Tarble mentally pictures when talking about their strength. Though I wonder exactly how he knew that. He can't sense ki, and his scouter should have broke.
Perhaps he was speaking in a vague "there's no way anyone could ever hope to defeat him/them!" sense, rather than in terms of raw numbers?
Around the time Tarble went away (possibly just before Planet Vegeta was destroyed?) the Saiyans were barely around the 10,000 benchmark (only King and Prince Vegeta achieved that power level). This would coincide with his thinking that no one could stop them. If he went off to some other section of a galaxy ever since then, and spent the next couple decades not aware of any events that took place, he did not see Frieza beyond his 1st form, nor did he know that Vegeta had become ridiculously powerful, and became a Super Saiyan. Nor did he know that Frieza was even defeated. (Vegeta had to explain that to Tarble).
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