Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Saiyans

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
MasterVampire
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 am

Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Saiyans

Post by MasterVampire » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:28 am

I know he wouldn't but If Goku went back in time to maybe a few years before Freezer blew up the planet and explained and demonstrated how to transform into Super Saiyan in front of the King and everyone do you think many of the Saiyans would have then been able to transform?

Vegeta trained extra hard because he saw proof that the legend was real and achievable due to seeing Goku as a Super Saiyan on planet Namek.

Didn't many of the Sayians consider the transformation to be nothing more than a story and not real because none had seen it performed?

Wouldn't it inspire them or give them something to work towards?

Or would their power levels just be still too low to reach it?

User avatar
hleV
Banned
Posts: 3325
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by hleV » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:36 am

There's a high battle power requirement for achieving Super Saiyan. Goku and Vegeta only managed to go so far because they received huge zenkais. I don't know whether the Saiyans would be willing to intentionally hurt themselves like that.

User avatar
KentalSSJ6
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6473
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois.

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:22 am

Wouldn't help. They'd need SSJG to even stand a chance.

For Saiyans you were considered a elite with a Power Level of 4,000.

4,000 X 50 = 200k.

First Form Freeza is over twice that. The only Saiyans that would have even a remote chance against Freeza would be Bardock, King Vegeta, and Vegeta. Even then Freeza can just go to his second form and still be twice as powerful as any of them.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
DBSW Group Page - http://dbsw.deviantart.com/
Still the 1k Sniper - [spoiler]http://orig10.deviantart.net/6a02/f/201 ... 8npe7r.png[/spoiler]

User avatar
xmysticgohanx
Regular
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:07 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ, US

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by xmysticgohanx » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:15 am

KentalSSJ6 wrote:Wouldn't help. They'd need SSJG to even stand a chance.
More like even a low class saiyan would stomp Final form Freeza (Cell probably not) considering the boost is more than a SSJ3 potara fusion :lol:
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:17 pm

I assume SSJ is only unlockable when your PL is at the millions peak. Then SSJ2 in the Billions than SSJ3 in the Trillions?
I entirely exclude the cheaters (Bardock / Goten / Kid Trunks) as they made the form simply nothing more than screaming out when your "best friend" dies corny drama. It totally undermined its significance.

SSJ God on the other hand is completely different to me, I don't see it as an increase multiplied by increase; but a transcendance of abilities into one. Like Gohan's Elder Kai boost except adding God-abilities into your ki. A low-class SSJGod would probably just be a low-class SSJGod. Its useless unless you have the strength to back it up.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
KentalSSJ6
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6473
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois.

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:57 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I assume SSJ is only unlockable when your PL is at the millions peak. Then SSJ2 in the Billions than SSJ3 in the Trillions?
I entirely exclude the cheaters (Bardock / Goten / Kid Trunks) as they made the form simply nothing more than screaming out when your "best friend" dies corny drama. It totally undermined its significance.

SSJ God on the other hand is completely different to me, I don't see it as an increase multiplied by increase; but a transcendance of abilities into one. Like Gohan's Elder Kai boost except adding God-abilities into your ki. A low-class SSJGod would probably just be a low-class SSJGod. Its useless unless you have the strength to back it up.
That wont work, seeing as Beerus says that Goku still needs Super Saiyan to beat Freeza. That alone implies that from Namek to Battle of Gods, Goku's base power level is still below 120 million.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
DBSW Group Page - http://dbsw.deviantart.com/
Still the 1k Sniper - [spoiler]http://orig10.deviantart.net/6a02/f/201 ... 8npe7r.png[/spoiler]

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:01 pm

entirely exclude the cheaters (Bardock / Goten / Kid Trunks) as they made the form simply nothing more than screaming out when your "best friend" dies corny drama. It totally undermined its significance.
Goten and kid Trunks are in the tens of millions in base. Bardock is just in the single digit thousands, but no, you can't just ignore him, as that's a thing that happened. Same with preteen Trunks in his special; he was only in the tens of thousands, yet was able to go SS. Vegeta also suspected that Goku could become a SS at 90,000, and the narrator all but stated the same thing.

The Daizenshuu puts it in simple words: to become a SS, you need to have a tranquil heart awakened by intense rage, and a battle power above the saiyan standard. Even Nappa could have gone SS with the right requirements.

Of course, given that only a little over ten saiyans had the battle power requirement, and they'd all still be far inferior to 1st form Freeza, I doubt it'd do much good, unless Nappa was weak for an elite, which I doubt. Ten 200,000s vs one 530,000 CAN result in a victory for the team, but it's slim. If they bring the prince and the king in, they should definitely be able to beat him... but then he can just transform to his over one million form and stomp them all effortlessly.

Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan were ridiculously powerful by any standard when they transformed. I highly doubt the "average" Super Saiyan would be able to take their Freeza arc base forms, even with a lifetime of regular training.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
entirely exclude the cheaters (Bardock / Goten / Kid Trunks) as they made the form simply nothing more than screaming out when your "best friend" dies corny drama. It totally undermined its significance.
Goten and kid Trunks are in the tens of millions in base. Bardock is just in the single digit thousands, but no, you can't just ignore him, as that's a thing that happened. Same with preteen Trunks in his special; he was only in the tens of thousands, yet was able to go SS. Vegeta also suspected that Goku could become a SS at 90,000, and the narrator all but stated the same thing.

The Daizenshuu puts it in simple words: to become a SS, you need to have a tranquil heart awakened by intense rage, and a battle power above the saiyan standard. Even Nappa could have gone SS with the right requirements.

Of course, given that only a little over ten saiyans had the battle power requirement, and they'd all still be far inferior to 1st form Freeza, I doubt it'd do much good, unless Nappa was weak for an elite, which I doubt. Ten 200,000s vs one 530,000 CAN result in a victory for the team, but it's slim. If they bring the prince and the king in, they should definitely be able to beat him... but then he can just transform to his over one million form and stomp them all effortlessly.

Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan were ridiculously powerful by any standard when they transformed. I highly doubt the "average" Super Saiyan would be able to take their Freeza arc base forms, even with a lifetime of regular training.
I ignore them because it doesn't fit any logic in continuity of the form's representation. None of those characters ever remotely shown any of the feats Goku and Vegeta did before and after obtaining them, they were only given the forms to keep up with the crowd. They may be strong for the tribe's standards but in no way seem as strong as they needed to be in order to legitametly earn it. It wouldn't be legendary if Freeza could one shot them all like nothing with it or not. Only when comparing to goku it would seem like 1 Base Goten is automaically = Freeza final form. They even suggest that in Yo-Son Goku which I can't see likely. Even together with Trunks without fusion Freeza would logically beat them no sweat, as he is the superior fighter.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:11 pm

I ignore them because it doesn't fit any logic in continuity of the form's representation. None of those characters ever remotely shown any of the feats Goku and Vegeta did before and after obtaining them, they were only given the forms to keep up with the crowd. They may be strong for the tribe's standards but in no way seem as strong as they needed to be in order to legitametly earn it. It wouldn't be legendary if Freeza could one shot them all like nothing with it or not. Only when comparing to goku it would seem like 1 Base Goten is automaically = Freeza final form. They even suggest that in Yo-Son Goku which I can't see likely. Even together with Trunks without fusion Freeza would logically beat them no sweat, as he is the superior fighter.
You can't outright ignore what's right there in the original manga. We read the narrator implying Goku could go SS at less than 90,000, and we outright see preteen SS Trunks being beaten by base future Gohan, meaning his base can't be anywhere near 90,000. The guidebooks and other material like EOB is just icing on the cake.

Why? The only requirements ever specified were a tranquil heart awakened by intense rage (it's specifically pointed out that Vegeta couldn't transform because he lacked this, NOT because he was too weak) and a battle power above the saiyan average (which even Nappa was).

It's legendary because it was supposed to be very strong. No one had scouters around or anything; it's legendary because it did something notable and is actually powerful, not because it had a battle power higher than Freeza's (it didn't, unless the saiyan was OP to begin with, as it's a multiplier). If you take EOB into account, the Super Saiyan is also what killed Freeza's ancestor Chilled, who while pitifully weak compared to his descendants (Cold, Freeza, Cooler, probably even Kuriza) was still likely the strongest non-god in the universe the time.

No, SS Trunks and SS Goten are plainly shown to be faaaaaar stronger than Android 18, heavily implied on multiple occasions to be stronger than Piccolo, and are plainly shown to be not far off from the adults. Freeza is garbage to them that either of them can literally kill with a poke. Hell, if Vegeta taught Trunks any techniques, he could kill Freeza by POINTING at him!

It's not base Goten = 100% Freeza, it's base Goten >>>>>>> 1st form Freeza. Tarble only said that Abo and Kado were stronger than Freeza while picturing his first form. Which is logical, as that's the only one he should know of.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:39 pm

DBZ's logic is even more ridiculous then I thought then. Basically Goten can beat anyone from the Saiyan saga just because he has SSJ.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
KentalSSJ6
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6473
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois.

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:55 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:DBZ's logic is even more ridiculous then I thought then. Basically Goten can beat anyone from the Saiyan saga just because he has SSJ.
Most of Namek too. Seeing as he and Trunks are heavily implied if not outright stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who fought toe to toe with 17 who along with 18 stomped SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks, and himself.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
DBSW Group Page - http://dbsw.deviantart.com/
Still the 1k Sniper - [spoiler]http://orig10.deviantart.net/6a02/f/201 ... 8npe7r.png[/spoiler]

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:14 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:DBZ's logic is even more ridiculous then I thought then. Basically Goten can beat anyone from the Saiyan saga just because he has SSJ.
Wait, what? Goten doesn't need Super Saiyan just to beat everyone in the Saiyan arc. He's literally thousands of times stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta just in base. If you give him SS, he pretty much crushes everyone up to the Cell Games.

Super Saiyan multiplies battle power by fifty, and the requirements are a tranquil heart, intense rage, and a base power above the Saiyan average. Theoretically, there could have been dozens of Super Saiyans, but they'd all be fodder to 1st form Freeza. It just so happens that all of the main saiyans who obtained the transformation in the manga were already ridiculously, comically overpowered before they even became Super Saiyans.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by Hitiro » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:52 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Bardock is just in the single digit thousands.
That's assuming he doesn't get a Zenkai from nearly dying from Freeza's attack? Could have pushed 10,000 considering he was said to nearly be rivalling King Vegeta in battle power. He may have even received more than one Zenkai considering Dodoria nuked him with a cheap shot as he was having one of those future premonitions. Lol.

Besides, Goku was only at a base battle power of 90,000 before he was healed and then hit 3 million. Not unbelievable that Bardock received a similar increase.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:07 am

Hitiro wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Bardock is just in the single digit thousands.
That's assuming he doesn't get a Zenkai from nearly dying from Freeza's attack? Could have pushed 10,000 considering he was said to nearly be rivalling King Vegeta in battle power. He may have even received more than one Zenkai considering Dodoria nuked him with a cheap shot as he was having one of those future premonitions. Lol.

Besides, Goku was only at a base battle power of 90,000 before he was healed and then hit 3 million. Not unbelievable that Bardock received a similar increase.
No, that's never said. That was a dub line.

He was stated to be at nearly 10,000 in the special, but that's irrelevant here, as Minus recently knocked it out of the manga's continuity, and Toriyama said Bardock was never strong enough to become an elite warrior; meaning he's weaker than Nappa. Considering he said this in an interview about EOB, it stands to reason that EOB Bardock would also not be stronger than Nappa. So, SS Bardock is below 200,000.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by Hitiro » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:17 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:No, that's never said. That was a dub line.

He was stated to be at nearly 10,000 in the special, but that's irrelevant here, as Minus recently knocked it out of the manga's continuity, and Toriyama said Bardock was never strong enough to become an elite warrior; meaning he's weaker than Nappa. Considering he said this in an interview about EOB, it stands to reason that EOB Bardock would also not be stronger than Nappa. So, SS Bardock is below 200,000.
Is it a dub line? I thought it was in the Japanese version too? Also I'm curious as to when Toriyama said Bardock was never strong enough to become an elite warrior. What interview did he say it in?Image
Edit: I think this is from the sub. It says here he was close to 10,000 too.

Edit 2: I just realised this image is actually from Kaboom, lol. He can probably tell is if it's the sub or dub. XD
Last edited by Hitiro on Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:27 am

Hitiro wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, that's never said. That was a dub line.

He was stated to be at nearly 10,000 in the special, but that's irrelevant here, as Minus recently knocked it out of the manga's continuity, and Toriyama said Bardock was never strong enough to become an elite warrior; meaning he's weaker than Nappa. Considering he said this in an interview about EOB, it stands to reason that EOB Bardock would also not be stronger than Nappa. So, SS Bardock is below 200,000.
Is it a dub line? I thought it was in the Japanese version too? Also I'm curious as to when Toriyama said Bardock was never strong enough to become an elite warrior. What interview did he say it in?
Specifically, I was talking about the doctor saying he rivaled King Vegeta. He just said he was nearing 10,000 in the original.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -super-qa/
O: About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?

AT: To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.

This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by Hitiro » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:34 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
O: About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?

AT: To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.

This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.
Fair enough. But just because Bardock was classed as a low-class warrior doesn't mean his battle power needs to be considered as such. He doesn't have to be promoted. The whole blowing up Planet Vegeta in the "Father of Goku" special was Bardock and his teams fault for being low-class warriors yet doing better than Freeza's other troops.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:35 am

Fair enough. But just because Bardock was classed as a low-class warrior doesn't mean his battle power needs to be considered as such. He doesn't have to be promoted. The whole blowing up Planet Vegeta in the "Father of Goku" special was Bardock and his teams fault for being low-class warriors yet doing better than Freeza's other troops.
That special has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's not canon anymore; Toriyama's DB Minus chapter contradicts it. There, Bardock and the other saiyans are quarantined to planet Vegeta for a month. If Bardock was strong enough to get promoted, Toriyama specifically said that he would have been. But he wasn't.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by Hitiro » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:42 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Fair enough. But just because Bardock was classed as a low-class warrior doesn't mean his battle power needs to be considered as such. He doesn't have to be promoted. The whole blowing up Planet Vegeta in the "Father of Goku" special was Bardock and his teams fault for being low-class warriors yet doing better than Freeza's other troops.
That special has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's not canon anymore; Toriyama's DB Minus chapter contradicts it. There, Bardock and the other saiyans are quarantined to planet Vegeta for a month. If Bardock was strong enough to get promoted, Toriyama specifically said that he would have been. But he wasn't.
Actually in that interview he specifically says that they "can" be promoted. Not that they necessarily "will." :P

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Teaching the Saiyan race how to transform into Super Sai

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:45 am

Hitiro wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Fair enough. But just because Bardock was classed as a low-class warrior doesn't mean his battle power needs to be considered as such. He doesn't have to be promoted. The whole blowing up Planet Vegeta in the "Father of Goku" special was Bardock and his teams fault for being low-class warriors yet doing better than Freeza's other troops.
That special has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's not canon anymore; Toriyama's DB Minus chapter contradicts it. There, Bardock and the other saiyans are quarantined to planet Vegeta for a month. If Bardock was strong enough to get promoted, Toriyama specifically said that he would have been. But he wasn't.
Actually in that interview he specifically says that they "can" be promoted. Not that they necessarily "will." :P
Even so, do you really think it makes any sense for Toriyama to respond to a question about Bardock's battle power with something that has nothing to do with his battle power? I highly doubt he had some hidden message here. He was asked about Bardock's battle power, and he responded that he's a high-tier low class fighter, but isn't able to become a mid-class.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

Post Reply