Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

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Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

Post by qjz123 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:12 pm

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
This is from Saikyō Jump's June 2014 Issue translated here http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... mysteries/. Toriyama said after fighting Beerus Goku realized that he's better off mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan rather than transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3. Does this mean those forms are now obsolete and that the power of Super Saiyan 3 is achievable in the normal Super Saiyan state :crazy: I'm confused.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:15 pm

Well, that really throws a wrench into GT.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:16 pm

You should add "probably" to the title, seeing as that's what Toriyama actually says. We wouldn't want people getting the wrong idea.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Marco Polo » Fri May 02, 2014 12:19 pm

qjz123 wrote:that the power of Super Saiyan 3 is achievable in the normal Super Saiyan state :crazy: I'm confused.
We already knew that. See Ultimate Gohan. As the Old Kai said, transformations is not the way to go.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Rocketman » Fri May 02, 2014 12:32 pm

Translated: "I forgot SS2 exists, and SS3 is really hard to draw"

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri May 02, 2014 12:36 pm

Freeza Soldier #156 wrote:Well, that really throws a wrench into GT.
No it doesn't? As said in the other thread, Toriyama says "probably" won't. SS2 is only used like once, for 10 seconds, and SS3 is used twice, for less than a minute combined. I think that fits just fine.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Godo » Fri May 02, 2014 12:50 pm

This is kinda hinted on in the Cell arc as well, when Goku and Gohan decide to keep using the SSJ transformation instead of using the "ascended" forms. But then the Buu arc comes along and we get two new SSJ transformations (with SSJ2 being established as a separate form).
I wonder how the whole story would have went if they didn't introduce SSJ2 and SSJ3.

But all in all, I simply believe that drawing SSJ2 and SSJ3 is harder and just using SSJ1 makes the movies easier to both animate and write, especially since they now can make any of the characters as strong as they want when they don't have to follow a strict continuity and power scaling as it had to be done during the manga's run.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Fri May 02, 2014 12:53 pm

I take that statement like: Goku doesn't need to transform into SSJ2 and 3, as those put a real strain on body, and Goku wants to fight as long as he wants, so he better trains his base and SSJ, and having SSJ-G the SSJ2 and 3 wouldn't give him any addition in strength, just more strain, so it's completely uncessary to ascend to those levels.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Herms » Fri May 02, 2014 1:38 pm

It's way easier to fit Toriyama's comment in with GT than it is to fit his other comments from that Q&A in with the manga (3 Kaioshins?!).

In general...I really doubt Toriyama has any interest in discounting GT. But he also doesn't seem to know/remember much about it, and doesn't seem to be making any effort to avoid contradicting it (which, again, is pretty much the same as with the actual manga).
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Fri May 02, 2014 2:10 pm

Herms wrote:It's way easier to fit Toriyama's comment in with GT than it is to fit his other comments from that Q&A in with the manga (3 Kaioshins?!).

In general...I really doubt Toriyama has any interest in discounting GT. But he also doesn't seem to know/remember much about it, and doesn't seem to be making any effort to avoid contradicting it (which, again, is pretty much the same as with the actual manga).
Maybe the Kaioshin he mentioned was the rerpective Dai Kaioshin, who indeed creates planets and new life-forms, as the East Kaioshin doesn't really do anything other than watching the universe's events... :P
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Chuquita » Fri May 02, 2014 2:14 pm

I'm ok with this. Two was never that much noticeably different appearance-wise, and three I never liked all that much because of those eyebrows. >_>
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kaboom » Fri May 02, 2014 2:26 pm

I don't think we need to take it as, "Goku will never use SSJ2 or SSJ3 again under any circumstances." Just that Goku realizes his normal form and mastered SSJ are optimal for battle, so he'll focus on them for his training. Which stuff in both the manga and other spin-off material has already kind of said or shown. But if the fate of the Earth depends on Goku whipping out Super Saiyan 3 for all of 5 seconds, I doubt he's going to refuse to do so.

Plus, the context of Toriyama saying this is, "after the battle with Beerus." So if the whole thing about Goku keeping all or most of Super Saiyan God's power is true, then it's very likely he really never will need Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again. I'm not sure what difference even Super Saiyan 1 still makes.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 02, 2014 3:14 pm

I don't see anything weird here. Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, and as we saw in the movie, Goku could use the majority of its power in base, and transforming into Super Saiyan didn't make him significantly stronger, if any at all. So, since Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3 put a strain in the body, while Super Saiyan (Full Power) doesn't, it makes sense for Goku to abandon them now that they don't help him much, like he abandoned Super Saiyan Grade 2, Super Saiyan Grade 3, and Super Saiyan God.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by MasterVampire » Fri May 02, 2014 7:19 pm

Whatever...

Just give me Vegeta SSJ3

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kid Buu » Fri May 02, 2014 7:38 pm

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Saiga » Fri May 02, 2014 8:02 pm

Honestly didn't like this tidbit. It's just a repeat of what the Cell arc did in regards to the Graded forms, except now it contradicts the idea of Super Saiyan 2 being the right way to transform. NOPE, that's wrong as well, and SS2/3 are just more Graded forms.

Of course this IS said in context of Goku's battle with Beerus, and it's probably a good idea there to avoid him becoming too strong now that he's been haxed up with God power.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 02, 2014 9:33 pm

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Nothing is said about Goku losing the ability to become a Super Saiyan 3.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Marco Polo » Fri May 02, 2014 10:57 pm

Saiga wrote:Honestly didn't like this tidbit. It's just a repeat of what the Cell arc did in regards to the Graded forms, except now it contradicts the idea of Super Saiyan 2 being the right way to transform. NOPE, that's wrong as well, and SS2/3 are just more Graded forms.
Old Kai already said that was wrong as well. Transformations are not the way to go.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Zephyr » Fri May 02, 2014 11:13 pm

I thought this was moreso implying that Goku in God Form can access all of its power regardless of SSj form, so there's no need to go a step or two further and have the drawbacks.

This would go in line with the common fan explanation of Gohan's Ultimate power-up being accessible regardless of whether he is in base form or SSj.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Saiga » Fri May 02, 2014 11:22 pm

Marco Polo wrote:
Saiga wrote:Honestly didn't like this tidbit. It's just a repeat of what the Cell arc did in regards to the Graded forms, except now it contradicts the idea of Super Saiyan 2 being the right way to transform. NOPE, that's wrong as well, and SS2/3 are just more Graded forms.
Old Kai already said that was wrong as well. Transformations are not the way to go.
That's not the same thing. Super Saiyan in general is wrong, having all the power in base is best. But, Super Saiyan 2 is the best Super Saiyan form. This has changed that to say that regular Super Saiyan is best, which is not what the series implied.
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