Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 03, 2014 1:15 am

Saiga wrote:That's not the same thing. Super Saiyan in general is wrong, having all the power in base is best. But, Super Saiyan 2 is the best Super Saiyan form. This has changed that to say that regular Super Saiyan is best, which is not what the series implied.
Is SS2 really the best form? It brings back the violent nature that Goku got rid from SS through SSFP, and nothing says that it doesn't bring back the strain on the body as well. In fact, Toriyama implies that it does. And SS3 drains ki fast, and 5 minutes later, it drains everything all at once. Super Saiyan (Full Power) doesn't affect the personality & doesn't put any strain, it's like base with golden hair.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Saiga » Sat May 03, 2014 2:28 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:That's not the same thing. Super Saiyan in general is wrong, having all the power in base is best. But, Super Saiyan 2 is the best Super Saiyan form. This has changed that to say that regular Super Saiyan is best, which is not what the series implied.
Is SS2 really the best form? It brings back the violent nature that Goku got rid from SS through SSFP, and nothing says that it doesn't bring back the strain on the body as well. In fact, Toriyama implies that it does. And SS3 drains ki fast, and 5 minutes later, it drains everything all at once. Super Saiyan (Full Power) doesn't affect the personality & doesn't put any strain, it's like base with golden hair.
It was outright stated to be the right way to transform in the Cell arc. That is the entire point of the subplot involving exploration of the Super Saiyan forms. And given Gohan's state at the time it's not good to use him as an example for SS2 bringing back the violent nature so we don't actually know if it does so.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by qjz123 » Sat May 03, 2014 2:46 am

Saiga wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:That's not the same thing. Super Saiyan in general is wrong, having all the power in base is best. But, Super Saiyan 2 is the best Super Saiyan form. This has changed that to say that regular Super Saiyan is best, which is not what the series implied.
Is SS2 really the best form? It brings back the violent nature that Goku got rid from SS through SSFP, and nothing says that it doesn't bring back the strain on the body as well. In fact, Toriyama implies that it does. And SS3 drains ki fast, and 5 minutes later, it drains everything all at once. Super Saiyan (Full Power) doesn't affect the personality & doesn't put any strain, it's like base with golden hair.
It was outright stated to be the right way to transform in the Cell arc. That is the entire point of the subplot involving exploration of the Super Saiyan forms. And given Gohan's state at the time it's not good to use him as an example for SS2 bringing back the violent nature so we don't actually know if it does so.
It's stated as being the right way to transform because it gave you a huge boost in power without decreasing your speed, we don't know how much strain the form puts on the body what we do know however is that at least in the case of Gohan it requires a huge emotional trigger to transform into which would explain why he couldn't easily access the form in the Buu saga imo.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Saiga » Sat May 03, 2014 3:02 am

He easily transformed into it at the Budokai. After calming down from seeing Videl revived. Needing rage to trigger it in the first place was because he didn't have the form yet, Goku and Vegeta have no troubles using it normally either.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Sat May 03, 2014 3:11 am

Zephyr wrote:I thought this was moreso implying that Goku in God Form can access all of its power regardless of SSj form, so there's no need to go a step or two further and have the drawbacks.

This would go in line with the common fan explanation of Gohan's Ultimate power-up being accessible regardless of whether he is in base form or SSj.
Nice point, so Gohan could give his ultimate power during the ritual in Battle of Gods, as his potentital unlocked. That is a very usefull way to simplify things. Good one, AT! :)

Maybe Vegeta also knew that the SSJ2 level puts more strain on body(of course not as much like SSJ3), so he could decide that to access all his power just as SSJ. Going further we can give an explanation as Gotenks why did used only SSJ against Beerus (if Trunks has trained in the time-skip he could have known that from Vegeta). He possibly expected a longer fight and as a SSJ3 he couldn't fight so long.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 03, 2014 6:10 am

Saiga wrote:It was outright stated to be the right way to transform in the Cell arc.
That's true, it was the right way to transform beyond Super Saiyan. Compared to Super Saiyan Grade 2, it gave a greater increase without putting a huge strain in the body. I don't think I need to talk about Super Saiyan Grade 3. But Super Saiyan Full Power puts extremely minimal stain to the body, and doesn't affect the personality of the user. So, now that it has the SSGod power, base & Super Saiyan are the best forms to use.
Low Tone G wrote:Maybe Vegeta also knew that the SSJ2 level puts more strain on body(of course not as much like SSJ3), so he could decide that to access all his power just as SSJ. Going further we can give an explanation as Gotenks why did used only SSJ against Beerus (if Trunks has trained in the time-skip he could have known that from Vegeta). He possibly expected a longer fight and as a SSJ3 he couldn't fight so long.
Nah, Vegeta was a SS2 IMO (SS2 & SS3 Goku didn't have sparks either), since it makes no sense for him to hold back, and Gotenks is an arrogant, stupid, brat that gets overconfident all the time. He probably went with the same logic he went on Boo to conserve time.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Marco Polo » Sat May 03, 2014 7:53 am

The way I see it, SSJ2 may or may not put a strain on your body. But if you can train yourself in SSJ1 to be stronger than SSJ2, why use SSJ2?

I don't think it's much different than Gohan's Ultimate form. Gohan can go SSJ or SSJ2, but he has learned to be stronger than SSJ2 in his base (actually Ultimate) form, so he doesn't need to turn SSJ or SSJ2.

The only difference, of course, is that Goku and Vegeta have yet to ACTUALLY master their base or SSJ form, which is why Toriyama said "probably" in his explanation. But we have seen with Goku vs Beerus and Vegeta vs Beerus that SSJ can be more powerful than SSJ2/3 (or SSJ2 more powerful than SSJ3 in the case of Vegeta if you choose to believe that he was SSJ2).

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cetra » Sat May 03, 2014 8:38 am

The whole interview contradicts a lot of stuff, while the manga already contradicted itself. And I bet it is not because of a retconning. Saying only GT does have so many flaws is unfair so I guess we really can take this interview as an example of how blurry Dragon Ball with its information and seriousness is.

Oh, and Akira Toriyama's idea supports GT because Goku was a SSJ most of the time when transforming and was strong as hell with only that form so he actually behaved appropriately and very efficient with his incredible power. Only Rirudo and Baby forced him to transform.
Last edited by Cetra on Sat May 03, 2014 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Sat May 03, 2014 8:45 am

It's debatable whether SSJ2 actually has any additional strain on the Saiyans I think. I know plotwise Akira Toriyama probably didn't want to go down the whole "we need to make this transformation feel more natural" theme again. But the only time we ever get a complaint about a form after the Cell saga is with the SSJ3 transformation. It could be that SSJ2 has the same strain as regular SSJ or perhaps closer to FPSSJ? But what I got from the manga is that SSJ2 was the most stable transformation for the Saiyans.
Cetra wrote:The whole interview contradicts a lot of stuff, while the manga already contradicted itself. And I bet it is not because of a retconning. Saying only GT does have so many flaws is unfair so I guess we really can take this interview as an example of how blurry Dragon Ball with its information and seriousness is.

Oh, and Akira Toriyama's idea supports GT because Goku was a SSJ most of the time when transforming and was strong as hell with only that form so he actually behaved appropriately and very efficient with his incredible power. Only Rirudo and Baby forced him to transform.
I don't think you're being fair. Dragon Ball is a much larger story than GT so its obviously going to have flaws here and there. GT was 46 episodes and it had a hell of a lot of flaws for only 46 episodes. If you compare the entirety of Dragon Ball it is nearly 10x the amount of episodes.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cetra » Sat May 03, 2014 9:00 am

Hitiro wrote:I don't think you're being fair. Dragon Ball is a much larger story than GT so its obviously going to have flaws here and there. GT was 46 episodes and it had a hell of a lot of flaws for only 46 episodes. If you compare the entirety of Dragon Ball it is nearly 10x the amount of episodes.
No, you are the one being unfair always using the same argument of "more volumes" and everything. DBZ and GT are both made by humans and humans are fallible. End of story. It also would not justify errors that appear in a very short time span (for example writing about Cell's core even though it was shown in another way 1 vol. before or strength and speed inaccuracies that just don't make any sense like Gohan being 3000 km/h fast in the Boo Saga when Goku is 21000 km/h fast in the Saiyajin Saga, the latter one has 15 manga inbetween but still could have been avoided by thinking about the continous increase of the character's powers) and also GT has errors that only are errors because of a fact that was stated long ago meaning it also is just something that can't be remembered unless you have the brain of a super-computer. So just be fair or don't complain about it. I love DBZ but it is far away from being perfect and GT has the right to have mistakes as much as DBZ has. And GT has 64 episodes, though this time it might have an accident of yours. As we all are fallible.

Also, from the interview:

"Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaioshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus."

So apparently "the magician who was not as strong as the Demon Boo" was Beerus who can defeat Boo without any effort.

Another contradiction if Beerus was not incredibly weak at that time compared to nowadays.

And it comes from the original creator who re-read his manga. Humans are fallible. You, me, Akira Toriyama and also Toei.
Last edited by Cetra on Sat May 03, 2014 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Sat May 03, 2014 9:12 am

Cetra wrote:No, you are the one being unfair always using the same argument of "more volumes" and everything. DBZ and GT are both made by humans and humans are fallible. End of story. It also would not justify errors that appear in a very short time span and also GT has errors that only are errors because of a fact that was stated long ago meaning it also is just something that can't be remembered unless you have the brain of a super-computer. So just be fair or don't complain about it. I love DBZ but it is far away from being perfect and GT has the right to have mistakes as much as DBZ has.

Also, from the interview:

"Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaioshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus."

So apparently "the magician who was not as strong as the Demon Boo" was Beerus who can defeat Boo without any effort.

Another contradiction if Beerus was not incredibly weak at that time compared to nowadays.
I'm not saying that Dragon Ball isn't without it's flaws and errors. But it also did a pretty good job despite being such a long story. What my point was is you're trying to compare a story that is almost 10x as big and say it is just as bad on the error side as GT is. That isn't the case though. GT has numerous errors that make it worse off than Dragon Ball. And no, there are errors in the first episode that aren't to do with facts from Dragon Ball. In the first episode of GT there are a few errors that don't make any sense. Such as Pilaf magically bridging the gap between Karin's tower and the lookout with mechs that can't fly. There would be no way for him to progress after he reached the top of Karin's tower unless the mechs could fly. Also the fact that Karin and Yajirobe didn't stop him. It's a bit hard to miss 3 huge mechs going past you. Not to mention Pilaf magically knowing about the Dragon Balls up at the lookout when nobody apart from the Nameless Namek, and Kaio, knew about. That's a fact GT made up on the spot as a plot device, yet they didn't account for things like Pilaf knowing about them.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cetra » Sat May 03, 2014 9:15 am

Hitiro wrote:Such as Pilaf magically bridging the gap between Karin's tower and the lookout with mechs that can't fly. There would be no way for him to progress after he reached the top of Karin's tower unless the mechs could fly. Also the fact that Karin and Yajirobe didn't stop him. It's a bit hard to miss 3 huge mechs going past you. Not to mention Pilaf magically knowing about the Dragon Balls up at the lookout when nobody apart from the Nameless Namek, and Kaio, knew about. That's a fact GT made up on the spot as a plot device, yet they didn't account for things like Pilaf knowing about them.
Nothing you mentioned was a plothole with the meaning of being paradox. Those are things - plotholes - that are just not well explained and there are tons of things that exist in DB like this. Pilaf even found Piccolo in a ravine in the depths of the ocean. Really weird things are Bra's appearance or that Otherworld stuff as well as Cell's absorption technique (which I hate that he has in GT). The rest is not that bad. By the way, the power pole wasn't used for years so it can still be used as connection. And getting flying mechs is also no problem for Pilaf. And GT is not worse than DBZ error-wise because DBZ has errors that have a more massive impact than GT and yet need to be ignored for the story to work (e.g. Goku's moon travelling as DB was for humor as well first, Demon void-banisher rules, Cell's core, strength and speed, meta-physical time stuff that does not work this way even though it is a popular way to tell stories, Android 19 and 20 being in Future Trunks' home time by his explanation even though it is 17 and 18 but was decided too late, et cetera).
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Sat May 03, 2014 9:35 am

Cetra wrote:Nothing you mentioned was a plothole with the meaning of being paradox. Those are things - plotholes - that are just not well explained and there are tons of things that exist in DB like this. Pilaf even found Piccolo in a ravine in the depths of the ocean. Really weird things are Bra's appearance or that Otherworld stuff as well as Cell's absorption technique (which I hate that he has in GT). The rest is not that bad. By the way, the power pole wasn't used for years so it can still be used as connection. And getting flying mechs is also no problem for Pilaf. And GT is not worse than DBZ error-wise because DBZ has errors that have a more massive impact than GT and yet need to be ignored for the story to work.
They are pretty much plotholes. Karin would never have let Pilaf past him. That is a fact. Even if the Nyoibo still connects to the lookout Pilaf wouldn't have been able to climb up it in mechs. And Pilaf didn't use flying mechs, that is a fact. You can tell from the design of the mechs they couldn't fly and Pilaf was panicking when he almost fell when scaling the outside of the lookout. I don't see how the Piccolo in the ravine in the depths of the ocean is a problem. Kame-sennin knew of the legend of Piccolo and even lived through it. It's no doubt that the legend of Piccolo had been passed around by the people since when he was sealed away. It is basically like the legend of the Dragon Balls. People knew of the Dragon Balls and tried collecting them. What doesn't make sense in GT is Kaio explains that as soon as the Nameless Namek made the black star Dragon Balls he sealed them away because they were too dangerous. So there would be nobody on Earth back then to possibly pass on that tale because nobody on Earth, apart from the Nameless Namek, knew about the black star Dragon Balls.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cetra » Sat May 03, 2014 9:46 am

Hitiro wrote:And Pilaf didn't use flying mechs, that is a fact. You can tell from the design of the mechs they couldn't fly and Pilaf was panicking when he almost fell when scaling the outside of the lookout.


So you think what you conclude but is not unequivocal is a fact. Very interesting. Pilaf had an airship and everything. It is no problem for him to have flying mechs and "he was panicking" is getting polemical. I do see your point, don't misunderstand me but that he was panicking doesn't need to mean anything. Just as much as Tien cannot get through Gero's iron door.
Hitiro wrote:I don't see how the Piccolo in the ravine in the depths of the ocean is a problem. Kame-sennin knew of the legend of Piccolo and even lived through it. It's no doubt that the legend of Piccolo had been passed around by the people since when he was sealed away. It is basically like the legend of the Dragon Balls. People knew of the Dragon Balls and tried collecting them. What doesn't make sense in GT is Kaio explains that as soon as the Nameless Namek made the black star Dragon Balls he sealed them away because they were too dangerous. So there would be nobody on Earth back then to possibly pass on that tale because nobody on Earth, apart from the Nameless Namek, knew about the black star Dragon Balls.
Not everyone knew about the Dragon Balls and I am sure you will understand that not everyone knows where Piccolo was buried 100s of years ago. So Pilaf knowing how to find him has nothing to do with "no problem". You are making it too easy. Piccolo was known and that's it. There was no hint ever stated for us and it being easily known by ordinary people that an evil Demon Ruler has been buried in place xy and the Dragon Balls also just were known by people who knew the legend which had to be heard or read of. You see Pilaf very well could have done some researches and obviously he did. He has many robots so for the GT part were he obviously did the same he might have used some spy bots or whatever to hear about it from someone who knows it - like Piccolo talking to Dende whose palace it was or whatever. Those things are really nothing that is so bad that is destroys the whole plot. My mentioned GT examples are worse.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Cetra wrote:Oh, and Akira Toriyama's idea supports GT because Goku was a SSJ most of the time when transforming and was strong as hell with only that form so he actually behaved appropriately and very efficient with his incredible power. Only Rirudo and Baby forced him to transform.
It doesn't. Toriyama implies that SS2 & SS3 are useless now because they don't give a power boost, only drawbacks, because of the Super Saiyan God power that Goku can use in base. This isn't the case in GT, Goku gets stronger with each transformation there. He just barely uses SS2 & SS3 in GT because he doesn't have to.
He doesn't imply anything like that. ASSJ and USSJ are also stronger than MSSJ and still he uses MSSJ because of efficience. He does not get completely as strong as normally but has less disadvantages (he keeps his SSJ speed). And in this case it is exactly the same. Now he can draw more power from his normal Super Saiyan state and he would get even stronger by transforming but the efficiency of SSJ makes the other forms pretty much worthless as the disadvantages of higher forms are not worth the increase at his current state of SSJ1 power which is so good now.
Last edited by Cetra on Sun May 04, 2014 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Sat May 03, 2014 10:22 am

Cetra wrote:So you think what you conclude but is not unequivocal is a fact. Very interesting. Pilaf had an airship and everything. It is no problem for him to have flying mechs and "he was panicking" is getting polemical. I do see your point, don't misunderstand me but that he was panicking doesn't need to mean anything. Just as much as Tenshinhan cannot get through Gero's iron door.
I'm sorry, but you could see from the design of all three mechs that they didn't have the ability to fly. They had no thrusters or anything. Him panicking was just the icing on the cake. I'm not saying Pilaf didn't have access to mechs that could fly, I don't see where you are getting the idea I'm trying to say that. What I'm saying is the mechs they used to scale Karin's tower and the lookout lacked the ability to fly.
Cetra wrote:Not everyone knew about the Dragon Balls and I am sure you will understand that not everyone knows where Piccolo was buried 100s of years ago. So Pilaf knowing how to find him has nothing to do with "no problem". You are making it too easy. Piccolo was known and that's it. There was no hint ever stated for us and it being easily known by ordinary people that an evil Demon Ruler has been buried in place xy and the Dragon Balls also just were known by people who knew the legend which had to be heard or read of.
Piccolo was known of, yes. But with Pilaf's technology it wouldn't be hard for him to find him. He easily built a radar to search for Dragon Balls and has tons of mechs and other stuff to help him search.
Cetra wrote:You see Pilaf very well could have done some researches and obviously he did. He has many robots so for the GT part were he obviously did the same he might have used some spy bots or whatever to hear about it from someone who knows it - like Piccolo talking to Dende whose palace it was or whatever. Those things are really nothing that is so bad that is destroys the whole plot. My mentioned GT examples are worse.
I don't see where you are trying to go with this. Nobody knew of the black star Dragon Balls. Even Piccolo and Dende. They were shocked that there was even another set of Dragon Balls there. Nobody knew about the black star Dragon Balls except the Nameless Namkian so it would be impossible for Pilaf to know about them. The only other person who was aware of the black star Dragon Balls was Kaio due to his powers. And it is impossible for Pilaf to have spy bots in the afterlife.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Sat May 03, 2014 12:26 pm

Hitiro wrote:It's debatable whether SSJ2 actually has any additional strain on the Saiyans I think. I know plotwise Akira Toriyama probably didn't want to go down the whole "we need to make this transformation feel more natural" theme again. But the only time we ever get a complaint about a form after the Cell saga is with the SSJ3 transformation. It could be that SSJ2 has the same strain as regular SSJ or perhaps closer to FPSSJ? But what I got from the manga is that SSJ2 was the most stable transformation for the Saiyans.
Cetra wrote:The whole interview contradicts a lot of stuff, while the manga already contradicted itself. And I bet it is not because of a retconning. Saying only GT does have so many flaws is unfair so I guess we really can take this interview as an example of how blurry Dragon Ball with its information and seriousness is..
I think if Toriyama didn't think about the SSJ2, when it was introduced as it puts more strain or not, now it is still acceptable to treat SSJ2 a form which puts higher strain on body than Goku's basic SSJ on the Namek, as Goku was able also to fight realtively very long being SSJ against Freeza just like SSJ2 Gohan did against Perfect Cell, so they could not be comparable very evidently.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 03, 2014 8:15 pm

Cetra wrote:Oh, and Akira Toriyama's idea supports GT because Goku was a SSJ most of the time when transforming and was strong as hell with only that form so he actually behaved appropriately and very efficient with his incredible power. Only Rirudo and Baby forced him to transform.
It doesn't. Toriyama implies that SS2 & SS3 are useless now because they don't give a power boost, only drawbacks, because of the Super Saiyan God power that Goku can use in base. This isn't the case in GT, Goku gets stronger with each transformation there. He just barely uses SS2 & SS3 in GT because he doesn't have to.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Low Tone G
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Sun May 04, 2014 8:03 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Cetra wrote:Oh, and Akira Toriyama's idea supports GT because Goku was a SSJ most of the time when transforming and was strong as hell with only that form so he actually behaved appropriately and very efficient with his incredible power. Only Rirudo and Baby forced him to transform.
It doesn't. Toriyama implies that SS2 & SS3 are useless now because they don't give a power boost, only drawbacks, because of the Super Saiyan God power that Goku can use in base. This isn't the case in GT, Goku gets stronger with each transformation there. He just barely uses SS2 & SS3 in GT because he doesn't have to.
I agree, that was the reason, stated by Goku himself, as he could handle SSJ1 very well just in a body of a Kid, but in the SSJ3, BECAUSE OF THE INCREASED POWER, could not stay not even a minute.
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by soulnova » Mon May 05, 2014 11:27 am

Chuquita wrote:I'm ok with this. Two was never that much noticeably different appearance-wise, and three I never liked all that much because of those eyebrows. >_>

Hah! Me neither! :lol:

I remember the first time I saw it. " :eh: :? Is AT serious with that....? Ugh..."
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue May 06, 2014 5:44 pm

This doesn't really make sense with how I've come to interpret SSJ levels.

That is, a saiyan has a certain base power and a certain "raw potential".

Base level of 50: SSJ at 2,500, SSJ2 at 5,000, SSJ3 at 20,000.

Base level of 500: SSJ at 25,000, SSJ2 at 50,000, SSJ3 at 200,000.

So on and so forth, SSJ3 being the saiyan's potential level.
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