Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu May 15, 2014 9:05 pm

I never really liked the aesthetic of SSJ3 anyway. To me it seemed almost like a parody of itself, if that makes any sense.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Shineman » Fri May 16, 2014 2:32 pm

It really depends on one's interpretation on the case, although it will contain conflicting views from one another. It can either mean that Goku is unable to become Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore [Although, Toiryama didn't actually said that], or Goku doesn't seem the purpose of going into those forms if he just stick with Super Saiyan 1 because it's balance out.

Here's my take on this: Goku can become SSJ 2 and SSJ 3, but only for the situation calls for it. I think it goes hand with the idea that Super Saiyan 2 doesn't provided much of a power boost (2x) and Super Saiyan 3 have too many drawbacks to even be useful in battle. This actually goes hand-to-hand with GT's reason why Goku barely even uses these two forms and prefers Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4. It fits rather well in my opinion if it goes to this route.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 16, 2014 2:46 pm

To make sense of how this works is to basically say, "we're completely altering the way SSJ levels function".

Which is the kind of thing Toriyama can and has been known to do...but is still kind of silly.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Weejus » Fri May 16, 2014 4:24 pm

It's shit like this that makes me put off ever taking an interest in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Fri May 23, 2014 10:17 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:To make sense of how this works is to basically say, "we're completely altering the way SSJ levels function".
Which is the kind of thing Toriyama can and has been known to do...but is still kind of silly.
Or he could be branching it out for a more efficient way to get stronger as constantly hinted? and to kill the mocking memes against them?
Weejus wrote:It's shit like this that makes me put off ever taking an interest in Dragon Ball.
You dont even know what he means but this.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I never really liked the aesthetic of SSJ3 anyway. To me it seemed almost like a parody of itself, if that makes any sense.
TBH it only ever looked cool on Goku. It the long hair makes Vegeta look even shorter when shown in the fan art. The look doesnt suit him to me, and why I think he'll never get it.
Kishido wrote:With this explanation he should train in base an had no need to transform into a SSJ as well
Kishido wrote:That makes no sense as well... if he absorbed all of the God power he doesn't need to transform in Super Saiyan as well and can simply fight in base... And what happens if he transforms into God mode once again?

On top on that... What happens if he trains his Super Saiyan level to the max level of 3 but after it will still transform?

The whole thing simply makes no sense
It makes sense because as we can assume his Ki is now mixed with God properties which have other attributes yet to be unlocked that would be more efficent than wasting reserves just to power up. It also makes sense because SSJ is the only significant multiplier. The other forms don't really add more than what they take off his power, and Zenkais don't occur in anything higher than SSJ1.
Hellspawn28 wrote:He has the power of a SSjG now which is why I think AT mention that Goku won't need to go SSj2 and SSj3 anymore.
I think we can say that the God ki will compensate for the ki needed to power up to SSJ2/SSJ3 suggesting that like Gohan he would have those reserves accessible already possible in his SSJ1 form.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Sat May 24, 2014 4:25 am

It makes sense because as we can assume his Ki is now mixed with God properties which have other attributes yet to be unlocked that would be more efficent than wasting reserves just to power up. It also makes sense because SSJ is the only significant multiplier. The other forms don't really add more than what they take off his power, and Zenkais don't occur in anything higher than SSJ1.
These are Toriyama's words of Goku getting Zenkai:
Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.
So for me the issue is like Goku from now on is also a beginner and has all the possibilites to surpass Beerus, even the Zenkai is still present.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon May 26, 2014 12:07 pm

Shineman wrote:Here's my take on this: Goku can become SSJ 2 and SSJ 3, but only for the situation calls for it. I think it goes hand with the idea that Super Saiyan 2 doesn't provided much of a power boost (2x) and Super Saiyan 3 have too many drawbacks to even be useful in battle. This actually goes hand-to-hand with GT's reason why Goku barely even uses these two forms and prefers Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4. It fits rather well in my opinion if it goes to this route.
Toriyama said that Goku, and only Goku, abandoned SS2 & SS3 after his fight with Beerus. After his fight with Beerus, as we saw in the movie & got confirmation by Toriyama, Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, and could use its power without transforming at all (Beerus said that his power had decreased insignificantly in his SS compared to his SSGod). Since we saw that Goku had about the same power in base, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God after doing so, and since Toriyama said that he doesn't need SS2 & SS3 anymore, it's safe to assume that with Goku been able to use almost all of the form's power in his base, by transforming into further forms, his power would only slightly change, if at all.

In GT, Goku didn't use SS2 & SS3 frequently because he didn't have too. When he was facing enemies that were too strong for him, he would transform.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Mon May 26, 2014 3:21 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Shineman wrote:Here's my take on this: Goku can become SSJ 2 and SSJ 3, but only for the situation calls for it. I think it goes hand with the idea that Super Saiyan 2 doesn't provided much of a power boost (2x) and Super Saiyan 3 have too many drawbacks to even be useful in battle. This actually goes hand-to-hand with GT's reason why Goku barely even uses these two forms and prefers Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4. It fits rather well in my opinion if it goes to this route.
Toriyama said that Goku, and only Goku, abandoned SS2 & SS3 after his fight with Beerus. After his fight with Beerus, as we saw in the movie & got confirmation by Toriyama, Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, and could use its power without transforming at all (Beerus said that his power had decreased insignificantly in his SS compared to his SSGod). Since we saw that Goku had about the same power in base, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God after doing so, and since Toriyama said that he doesn't need SS2 & SS3 anymore, it's safe to assume that with Goku been able to use almost all of the form's power in his base, by transforming into further forms, his power would only slightly change, if at all.

In GT, Goku didn't use SS2 & SS3 frequently because he didn't have too. When he was facing enemies that were too strong for him, he would transform.
Yeah, Goku in GT was shown to be enough to beat all the Z villains going only SSJ1, in the worst case. We it saw in the first episode he fought evenly Uub who clearly was SSJ3 tier using his inherited power of Kid(Pure) Buu who was equal to SSJ3 Goku in terms of raw power, and possibly killed by Goku if he was lack regeneration.

It isn't at all accidental that Toriyama mentioned the fight with Beerus tobe the piopint that Goku changed his mind to master only Base and SSJ1 as they have no drawbacks contrary to SSJ2 and 3. My theory that Goku should use his SSJ1 to beside the base that the SSJ form gives a more durable body(I mean increases a bit his muscle mass) to him and that could maintain the Godly power better than the Base, though the base form is the most balanced.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Mewzard » Mon May 26, 2014 11:16 pm

DarkPrince_92 wrote:Yeah, I've been getting a heavy "talking out my ass" vibe from Toriyama lately. That's just me.
...You do realize that talking out of his ass is how he's done his entire manga career, right? It's not an insult, the guy's just good at making up stuff on the fly (though with a series as long and as old as DBZ, things are bound to contradict).

Goku doesn't need SSJ2/3 anymore due to figuring out how to tap into the power of SSJ God without actually using the form (which was rather limited in its duration, and required a ritual to obtain).

Since he master SSJ, that form would only have the most minimal of drains, and therefore, be the optimal form for getting the most power with the least amount of drain (assuming the levels of SSJ still do add some level of power, given he's still somewhat weaker than SSJ God itself, minimal as the gap may be).

It makes sense.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Rocketman » Tue May 27, 2014 3:41 am

I keep seeing explanations, and all I can hear is "wank wank wank wank wank oooh ~goku~ youre sooo stronger now you dont even neeed those silly things anymore wankwankwankwankwank mmm ~~~~godkuuuuu~~"

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Tue May 27, 2014 6:07 am

Mewzard wrote:
DarkPrince_92 wrote:Yeah, I've been getting a heavy "talking out my ass" vibe from Toriyama lately. That's just me.
Since he master SSJ, that form would only have the most minimal of drains, and therefore, be the optimal form for getting the most power with the least amount of drain (assuming the levels of SSJ still do add some level of power, given he's still somewhat weaker than SSJ God itself, minimal as the gap may be).

It makes sense.
What additional power might you assume it gives SSJ1 to Goku having SSJ God Power in Base? How much does SSJ2 give?
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue May 27, 2014 6:10 pm

Low Tone G wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
DarkPrince_92 wrote:Yeah, I've been getting a heavy "talking out my ass" vibe from Toriyama lately. That's just me.
Since he master SSJ, that form would only have the most minimal of drains, and therefore, be the optimal form for getting the most power with the least amount of drain (assuming the levels of SSJ still do add some level of power, given he's still somewhat weaker than SSJ God itself, minimal as the gap may be).

It makes sense.
What additional power might you assume it gives SSJ1 to Goku having SSJ God Power in Base? How much does SSJ2 give?
My guess is, SSJ1-God gives him stable ki flow, stable-natural state body and SSJ3's ki pool if not far more, + ki absorption boost, negates power up time and undetectable energy. Or everything similar to Gohan's Elder Unlocked ability ontop of SSJ.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Wed May 28, 2014 5:05 am

Low Tone G wrote:
What additional power might you assume it gives SSJ1 to Goku having SSJ God Power in Base? How much does SSJ2 give?
My guess is, SSJ1-God gives him stable ki flow, stable-natural state body and SSJ3's ki pool if not far more, + ki absorption boost, negates power up time and undetectable energy. Or everything similar to Gohan's Elder Unlocked ability ontop of SSJ.
As far I'm concerned I go with the SSJ forms do not give any boost on top of SSJ God energy, just because all the SSJ forms are below SSJ God's level. SSJ2 puts some strain on the body and SSJ3 even more. In SSJ can fight very long as it is balanced, and it gives a more durable physical body by increasing muscle mass quite a bit as it doesn't mean any drawbacks. Goku was able to withstand Beerus's attacks in base(having SSJ God energy). And stated he was holding back a bit, so became serious after powering up to SSJ1 believing he just powered uo to his maximum power as a SSJ God.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 28, 2014 2:54 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Shineman wrote:Here's my take on this: Goku can become SSJ 2 and SSJ 3, but only for the situation calls for it. I think it goes hand with the idea that Super Saiyan 2 doesn't provided much of a power boost (2x) and Super Saiyan 3 have too many drawbacks to even be useful in battle. This actually goes hand-to-hand with GT's reason why Goku barely even uses these two forms and prefers Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4. It fits rather well in my opinion if it goes to this route.
Toriyama said that Goku, and only Goku, abandoned SS2 & SS3 after his fight with Beerus. After his fight with Beerus, as we saw in the movie & got confirmation by Toriyama, Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, and could use its power without transforming at all (Beerus said that his power had decreased insignificantly in his SS compared to his SSGod). Since we saw that Goku had about the same power in base, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God after doing so, and since Toriyama said that he doesn't need SS2 & SS3 anymore, it's safe to assume that with Goku been able to use almost all of the form's power in his base, by transforming into further forms, his power would only slightly change, if at all.

In GT, Goku didn't use SS2 & SS3 frequently because he didn't have too. When he was facing enemies that were too strong for him, he would transform.
So if I'm following, you're comparing it to Gohan's Ultimate state (or rather, one theory regarding his Ultimate state) in that he CAN stack his transformations on top of it, but it essentially won't do anything other than sap his ki, since he's at peak power via his Ultimate state. This would be the same with SSj God, wherein Goku can go SSj2 and 3 whilst powered up as SSj God, but that would do pretty much nothing but sap his ki, since he's at peak power via SSj God.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Wed May 28, 2014 6:04 pm

My take on it was the SSJ forms, while having set multipliers, would be useless if you didn't have that amount to your limits. If your limit is 50x that of your current strength then it is understandable to use SSJ. If you have something like 75x then transforming into SSJ2 will only give you 75x rather than the full 100x. And so on.

I see the transformations as a modification on the Saiyan's current physiology to handle the higher level of their limits. As opposed to Gohan's power-up which ignores the physical requirements to manage his potential past his limits.

So basically there is a physical limit which is imposed on everyone that they must work on to become stronger. This is further influenced by the SSJ transformations which alter the physical make-up of the Saiyan to handle power past their physical limit.

And then there is the actual limit, which is the maximum they could ever potential reach but they may not in their lifetime. And this is effected by age and mentality as well.

Eventually Goku is going to reach a point where the transformations won't be a benefit to him so he looking a head to that possibility and focusing on the original form because however close he gets to reaching his limit there probably isn't a guarantee he'll hit it. So SSJ will act as a back up for that remaining area of power he won't reach. But it is probably best to master the SSJ transformation as well as he can for if he needs that last push.

I also see the God Ki as a slightly different area in increasing his power. While he may hold normal Ki in his body he can further amplify his strength past his limits by using God Ki because I feel it can be considered as a different tank compared to the normal Ki. As Beerus noted how Goku was a genius for taking the God Ki and making it his "own" which I basically see as converting the God Ki into his normal Ki.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 28, 2014 6:36 pm

That kind of got me thinking... what if training to improve your use of the Super Saiyan forms causes those upper limits to actually increase in the first place?

Imagine that someone who's newly gained the Super Saiyan ability actually has an upper limit less than the 50x power boost that the form grants. But by toughening up their body in the process of mastering the form, they increase their upper limit to at least that full 50x, making the power come much more naturally and easily.

Before doing so, the Grades states push your power FAR above what your current, less-than-50x limit is, introducing those forms' drawbacks as a result. But afterwards, Super Saiyan 2 either matches or only slightly pushes those limits, letting your body to adapt and use that power effectively, though still at the cost of some stress and reintroduced energy waste. But Super Saiyan 3, in turn, also forces your power up to way, WAY above your body's natural limit, possibly to an extent that can never be compensated for, and your body's inability to process all that power causes the form's severe energy and stamina drain.

Other forms outside the main Super Saiyan chain probably alter your body itself and its upper limits along with it (Oozaru, Gold Oozaru, Super Saiyan 4), condense and increase your upper limits through unnatural means (Gohan's 'ultimate' state), or use an entirely different type of power with its own effects (Super Saiyan God).
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Wed May 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Kaboom wrote:That kind of got me thinking... what if training to improve your use of the Super Saiyan forms causes those upper limits to actually increase in the first place?

Imagine that someone who's newly gained the Super Saiyan ability actually has an upper limit less than the 50x power boost that the form grants. But by toughening up their body in the process of mastering the form, they increase their upper limit to at least that full 50x, making the power come much more naturally and easily.

Before doing so, the Grades states push your power FAR above what your current, less-than-50x limit is, introducing those forms' drawbacks as a result. But afterwards, Super Saiyan 2 either matches or only slightly pushes those limits, letting your body to adapt and use that power effectively, though still at the cost of some stress and reintroduced energy waste. But Super Saiyan 3, in turn, also forces your power up to way, WAY above your body's natural limit, possibly to an extent that can never be compensated for, and your body's inability to process all that power causes the form's severe energy and stamina drain.

Other forms outside the main Super Saiyan chain probably alter your body itself and its upper limits along with it (Oozaru, Gold Oozaru, Super Saiyan 4), condense and increase your upper limits through unnatural means (Gohan's 'ultimate' state), or use an entirely different type of power with its own effects (Super Saiyan God).
Will I would have assumed that is why they choose to train in SSJ in the RoSaT. Because you can more easily reach that level of power in your base form through training in it as a SSJ.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu May 29, 2014 1:14 am

If all that were the case, then there really isn't any rationale against the idea of a saiyan just achieving their maximum power in their base state if they train hard enough at it.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Thu May 29, 2014 12:46 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:If all that were the case, then there really isn't any rationale against the idea of a saiyan just achieving their maximum power in their base state if they train hard enough at it.
That's what Goku is going for. Which is why he only cares about getting strong and only using the original SSJ to make up for that last bit of distance between his maximum power and his current power.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Thu May 29, 2014 1:16 pm

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Toriyama intends to give birth to a new saga of Dragon Ball with Goku being once again a beginner, and become that most powerful being and he has to start to train again really hardly, like never before.

I really expect to get a new movie or even a trilogy, like of Broly's. There are too many coincidences...
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