Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more!?

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Fri May 30, 2014 12:07 am

Low Tone G wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that Toriyama intends to give birth to a new saga of Dragon Ball with Goku being once again a beginner, and become that most powerful being and he has to start to train again really hardly, like never before.

I really expect to get a new movie or even a trilogy, like of Broly's. There are too many coincidences...
I really hope in someway Akira Toriyama retcons Goku's output to at least make him closer to Superman's potential. Not as an instant OP but gradually his tier, while Piccolo and Vegeta boost to GT Goku's tier or at least Vegito or Beerus tier by the end of the speculated God arcs.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 2:38 am

Hitiro wrote:That's what Goku is going for. Which is why he only cares about getting strong and only using the original SSJ to make up for that last bit of distance between his maximum power and his current power.
Yes but that's boring as hell and not what I want to see.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 3:50 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Hitiro wrote:That's what Goku is going for. Which is why he only cares about getting strong and only using the original SSJ to make up for that last bit of distance between his maximum power and his current power.
Yes but that's boring as hell and not what I want to see.
Maybe so, but the best thing to do isn't always what you want to see.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 9:03 am

Why would that be the "best thing"?

It's still not a rational way of looking at SSJ transformations and a T.V. show is about entertainment.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 30, 2014 9:11 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:The more I think about it, the more I believe that Toriyama intends to give birth to a new saga of Dragon Ball with Goku being once again a beginner, and become that most powerful being and he has to start to train again really hardly, like never before.

I really expect to get a new movie or even a trilogy, like of Broly's. There are too many coincidences...
I really hope in someway Akira Toriyama retcons Goku's output to at least make him closer to Superman's potential. Not as an instant OP but gradually his tier, while Piccolo and Vegeta boost to GT Goku's tier or at least Vegito or Beerus tier by the end of the speculated God arcs.


What does Goku even have to do with Superman? Why would Toriyama even talk about it?
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James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 9:11 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:Why would that be the "best thing"?

It's still not a rational way of looking at SSJ transformations and a T.V. show is about entertainment.
It would be the best thing because he is reducing the reliance on the transformations. I don't see why that wouldn't be the best thing to do. The Rou Kaioshin even told us that transformations are the wrong way to do things. What good is the SSJ3 transformation if it doesn't give the benefit it used to and just makes you exhausted 3 or 4 minutes into the fight? What good is a transformation in general when Goku can fight at his maximum potential? It is pretty much the best rational way to look at the SSJ transformations. Removing the dependency on them means no useless energy consumption or strain on the body. While it isn't good from an "entertainment" stand-point it is the best way in-universe.

Goku isn't going to keep using the SSJ transformations because they look cool. That is what you want. Goku is going for practicality.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 9:38 am

First of all, nobody EVER got exhausted, or even mildly fatigued, from using SSJ2. The precedent set by BoG is not reflected in (or even relevant to, IMO) the rest of Z, and as far as FPSSJ, at no point can I even think of does a single character beat his opponent through a battle of endurance. Goku vs. Vegeta on Earth could've ended that way had the Oozaru thing not come into play, but then we're talking about kaioken and not super saiyan levels.

Secondly, I meant "not rational" as in it's a crappy deus ex machina. People love the super saiyan transformations, I don't want to see everyone going back to fighting in base after so much weave flying around.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:42 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Secondly, I meant "not rational" as in it's a crappy deus ex machina. People love the super saiyan transformations, I don't want to see everyone going back to fighting in base after so much weave flying around.
That may be so, but the point that Hitiro is making is that it's not relevant towards an in-universe discussion.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 9:49 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:First of all, nobody EVER got exhausted, or even mildly fatigued, from using SSJ2. The precedent set by BoG is not reflected in (or even relevant to, IMO) the rest of Z, and as far as FPSSJ, at no point can I even think of does a single character beat his opponent through a battle of endurance. Goku vs. Vegeta on Earth could've ended that way had the Oozaru thing not come into play, but then we're talking about kaioken and not super saiyan levels.

Secondly, I meant "not rational" as in it's a crappy deus ex machina. People love the super saiyan transformations, I don't want to see everyone going back to fighting in base after so much weave flying around.
I never said anything about getting exhausted from SSJ2. I was talking about SSJ3. There really is no deus ex machina going on. If Goku is at his maximum potential it makes the SSJ transformations useless as they won't do anything for him.

If a battle comes down to the wire the energy they spent using a transformation may be the difference in winning or losing. It is better to have that energy and put it to use in defeating the enemy rather than letting it be used up by a transformation. And while people love the SSJ transformations it is still a logical thing. Finally, Akira Toriyama said that Goku would probably stop using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Not the original SSJ. It is going to be very difficult for Goku to reach his maximum potential. If he ever does. So mastering the original SSJ transformation as much as he can and pushing his base power to the limit is the best way to go. And whatever difference between his maximum potential and his current strength will be offset by the original SSJ transformation as it is the most stable form.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 10:15 am

But it still makes no sense. At any point in time, a character is as strong as they are; they have only as much potential as they actually have, no more and no less. Taking on this new viewpoint of how SSJ levels work stands in direct contradiction to any possible way of interpreting how they worked previously. Whether you view super saiyan levels as accessing the dormant power inside of a saiyan, or extending their power beyond comfortable limits, the fact that there are multiple levels of SSJ unwaveringly lends to the idea that the transformation is simply an outward manifestation of what they are doing inside, rather than them just flicking a switch and saying "now I'm the next level".

It's like saying, "well I sweat when I exert myself, so I'll just train myself so that doing the same amount of work won't cause me to sweat," but you're still going to sweat if you push yourself beyond that, and there's ALWAYS going to be a point at which you start sweating.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 11:57 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:But it still makes no sense. At any point in time, a character is as strong as they are; they have only as much potential as they actually have, no more and no less. Taking on this new viewpoint of how SSJ levels work stands in direct contradiction to any possible way of interpreting how they worked previously. Whether you view super saiyan levels as accessing the dormant power inside of a saiyan, or extending their power beyond comfortable limits, the fact that there are multiple levels of SSJ unwaveringly lends to the idea that the transformation is simply an outward manifestation of what they are doing inside, rather than them just flicking a switch and saying "now I'm the next level".

It's like saying, "well I sweat when I exert myself, so I'll just train myself so that doing the same amount of work won't cause me to sweat," but you're still going to sweat if you push yourself beyond that, and there's ALWAYS going to be a point at which you start sweating.
It's actually more like" Your heart races when you exert yourself so you are going to train yourself to do the same amount of work which won't case your heart to race." Goku will never be able to push himself beyond his maximum potential. That will be the limit. He can try his hardest and will still not get anything else out of it. What good is not reaching your maximum potential and relying on transformations that will "always" cause you to exert yourself, even if it isn't that much. Removing that exertion on your body is a plus, no matter what you say.

I'm not on about his potential increasing or anything. I'm talking about the strongest Goku will ever be able to get, if it is at all possible. As such the SSJ transformations will become meaningless because if Goku reaches his the maximum then going SSJ will not benefit him whatsoever. The transformations are just there to allow the Saiyan's to keep up with strong enemies while being inherently weaker than them. It really is no different than what happens in GT when Goku can take Cell and Freeza on in base form. Goku is aiming for the point in which he doesn't need those transformations any more and can rely purely on his own strength rather than transformations. While I agree it isn't very entertaining to see Goku not go SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore it is the smartest move.

The Rou Kaioshin power up that Gohan got is literally what Goku is trying to achieve, except without the "power past his limits" gimmick. It is still a goal which is a long way away though. So he will still need SSJ at least. I really don't see why you're complaining about this, lol.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Low Tone G » Fri May 30, 2014 1:14 pm

Goku's real potential isn't unlocked yet. And I belive that his potential has grown even beyond than before with SSJ God evolution. It was stated that the strongest fusion isn't enough to compete a God the type of Beerus and Whis. So Goku's natural potential shouldn't be higher than of Vegetto or something. Toriyama said that the characters more or less have reached their maximum power in the period of B.o.G., so Goku's potential most likely is below Vegetto's.

I personally beilve that even if Goku's previous SSJ transformations couldn't give him any addtional potential to be unlocked someday, the SSJ-God did, as Goku's being was totally changed, he is no more a being among others, but a higher life-form.

And Goku's potential is even greater now according to Beerus, because he has even further to go, his SSJ-God power from B.o.G. isn't his true potential as a God.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 1:47 pm

Hitiro wrote:It's actually more like" Your heart races when you exert yourself so you are going to train yourself to do the same amount of work which won't case your heart to race." Goku will never be able to push himself beyond his maximum potential. That will be the limit. He can try his hardest and will still not get anything else out of it. What good is not reaching your maximum potential and relying on transformations that will "always" cause you to exert yourself, even if it isn't that much. Removing that exertion on your body is a plus, no matter what you say.

I'm not on about his potential increasing or anything. I'm talking about the strongest Goku will ever be able to get, if it is at all possible. As such the SSJ transformations will become meaningless because if Goku reaches his the maximum then going SSJ will not benefit him whatsoever. The transformations are just there to allow the Saiyan's to keep up with strong enemies while being inherently weaker than them. It really is no different than what happens in GT when Goku can take Cell and Freeza on in base form. Goku is aiming for the point in which he doesn't need those transformations any more and can rely purely on his own strength rather than transformations. While I agree it isn't very entertaining to see Goku not go SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore it is the smartest move.

The Rou Kaioshin power up that Gohan got is literally what Goku is trying to achieve, except without the "power past his limits" gimmick. It is still a goal which is a long way away though. So he will still need SSJ at least. I really don't see why you're complaining about this, lol.

For one thing, that means that Goku could literally never get any stronger, since if you never exert yourself you cannot train. He would have one arbitrary maximum potential level that he could never surpass (which, again, if we're actually discussing this like it follows SOME form of logic, this is an unavoidable consequence). That means he can no longer increase his base strength and then extend his powers via super saiyan transformations, he's just base Goku with x-power. And he would never get tired...which makes absolutely zero sense and is completely against the theme of strife for the show.

I don't know why you're bringing up GT when SSJ4 was the cornerstone of the whole series. And my point is that if you try to define the exact mechanics of what super saiyan is and/or how it happens based on everything that has happened in the show, there is no rational way that you are going to be able to come to the conclusion that you can just throw them away.

I'm complaining because it's an utterly boring concept.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by xmysticgohanx » Fri May 30, 2014 1:56 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I really hope in someway Akira Toriyama retcons Goku's output to at least make him closer to Superman's potential.
I want to prove Goku > Superman so badly; too bad it's off-topic :x

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Toriyama meant that since Goku can use his full (or very close to it) god power in SSJ and even base(,) SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't needed.
p.s. should a be comma there?
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 2:24 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:For one thing, that means that Goku could literally never get any stronger, since if you never exert yourself you cannot train. He would have one arbitrary maximum potential level that he could never surpass (which, again, if we're actually discussing this like it follows SOME form of logic, this is an unavoidable consequence). That means he can no longer increase his base strength and then extend his powers via super saiyan transformations, he's just base Goku with x-power. And he would never get tired...which makes absolutely zero sense and is completely against the theme of strife for the show.

I don't know why you're bringing up GT when SSJ4 was the cornerstone of the whole series. And my point is that if you try to define the exact mechanics of what super saiyan is and/or how it happens based on everything that has happened in the show, there is no rational way that you are going to be able to come to the conclusion that you can just throw them away.

I'm complaining because it's an utterly boring concept.
Goku has a maximum limit like any character. There is an upper wall that can never be surpassed. He just hasn't reached it yet. The transformations, as far as we're aware, were just methods of accessing what would be Goku's future strength if he managed to reach those levels. Once he reaches his maximum strength the SSJ transformations will do nothing for him. Like how it is useless for Gohan to use the SSJ transformations because he has already had his true potential unlocked.

And of course Goku will get tired, even at his max strength. What he can't do is go beyond his max strength.

With GT I was just demonstrating that Goku in his base form got strong enough to take villains on he couldn't without a SSJ transformation in the show. As such there is no need for him to use the SSJ transformations. We have been told by the Daizenshuu that the SSJ transformation mechanics are just about unlocking that power a Saiyan should be able to reach eventually through training.
Daizenshuu 7 wrote:The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time
^ SSJ3 clarifies it draws out a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits. If all that power is drawn out in base form already, what is the need for the transformation? None whatsoever. And that is what Goku would be striving for. Why go SSJ3 and waste that power for a short amount of time if you can just become that strong in your base form and not need the transformation?

I really don't see how it makes zero sense for Goku to get so strong the transformations don't provide him any benefits anymore. It makes perfect sense when the SSJ transformations draw on the hidden power(potential) of the individual.

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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri May 30, 2014 2:40 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I really hope in someway Akira Toriyama retcons Goku's output to at least make him closer to Superman's potential.
I want to prove Goku > Superman so badly; too bad it's off-topic :x

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Toriyama meant that since Goku can use his full (or very close to it) god power in SSJ and even base(,) SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't needed.
p.s. should a be comma there?
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 5:20 pm

Hitiro wrote:Goku has a maximum limit like any character. There is an upper wall that can never be surpassed. He just hasn't reached it yet. The transformations, as far as we're aware, were just methods of accessing what would be Goku's future strength if he managed to reach those levels. Once he reaches his maximum strength the SSJ transformations will do nothing for him. Like how it is useless for Gohan to use the SSJ transformations because he has already had his true potential unlocked.

And of course Goku will get tired, even at his max strength. What he can't do is go beyond his max strength.

With GT I was just demonstrating that Goku in his base form got strong enough to take villains on he couldn't without a SSJ transformation in the show. As such there is no need for him to use the SSJ transformations. We have been told by the Daizenshuu that the SSJ transformation mechanics are just about unlocking that power a Saiyan should be able to reach eventually through training.
Daizenshuu 7 wrote:The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time
^ SSJ3 clarifies it draws out a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits. If all that power is drawn out in base form already, what is the need for the transformation? None whatsoever. And that is what Goku would be striving for. Why go SSJ3 and waste that power for a short amount of time if you can just become that strong in your base form and not need the transformation?

I really don't see how it makes zero sense for Goku to get so strong the transformations don't provide him any benefits anymore. It makes perfect sense when the SSJ transformations draw on the hidden power(potential) of the individual.
Dragonball Z has always been about power progression and a (relatively speaking) "realistic" depiction of metabolism. Characters train to get stronger, they stress to give their full effort, they get more exhausted the harder they work. Their bodies work like normal human bodies, just with an absurd amount of energy.

So to say that there is an upper limit to Goku's strength is to say that there is a point where his body will simply fall apart, not that there's an arbitrary ki ceiling that he's going to hit. Nobody reaches their current limits without expending a large amount of effort...

...Which is why if that is the direction that we're going with this, that's just dumb.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Fri May 30, 2014 5:52 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What does Goku even have to do with Superman? Why would Toriyama even talk about it?
I was referring to the Death battle and discussion groups. I only said I hope Goku's strength gets strong enough to meet his level.
What other reason was SSJGod even created for, if not to make Goku stronger?
Cursed Lemon wrote:Why would that be the "best thing"? It's still not a rational way of looking at SSJ transformations and a T.V. show is about entertainment.
SSJ transformations have become something of extreme mockery for the show for the last 10 years anyway. As much as a disagree with it, it would be better for Goku to get something new into the continuity to widen his tool-belt. I'd rather Goku explore other feats within himself instead of relying on it. Though transformations is what the section of the series was entirely about. It will get boring and hard to determine how strong villains are later on if all he uses is SSJ1. Id rather them take a naruto root and make the new abilities more technique cause and effect based rather than just using the transformations as a crutch. Goku already said he maxed out all he could get out of the raw ki boosts alone which is just buffs but nothing really new. His kamehemahas have always been all the same in each form anyway.
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Hitiro » Fri May 30, 2014 6:06 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Dragonball Z has always been about power progression and a (relatively speaking) "realistic" depiction of metabolism. Characters train to get stronger, they stress to give their full effort, they get more exhausted the harder they work. Their bodies work like normal human bodies, just with an absurd amount of energy.

So to say that there is an upper limit to Goku's strength is to say that there is a point where his body will simply fall apart, not that there's an arbitrary ki ceiling that he's going to hit. Nobody reaches their current limits without expending a large amount of effort...

...Which is why if that is the direction that we're going with this, that's just dumb.
I don't see why Goku reaching the maximum strength he could ever amount to would make his body fall apart. We seem him do much more than anybody should be able to do anyway. From training at 100x Earth's Gravity to flinging around 40 tonnes like it's nothing. His body should have long fallen apart. And there will be a Ki ceiling because at this point his body is at its peak. The only way he is going to get any stronger is through increasing his Ki to amplify is physical attributes.

Everyone has a limit and it is impossible to get better than your peak. Most people never reach their peak and it is likely Goku won't either. But training to the point where his peak is only 50x stronger than his current base isn't unbelievable. And then what is he supposed to do? Keep using SSJ2 or SSJ3 even though they provide no benefits because his potential is only 50x his base now? What if he actually reaches his peak in his base form? Does he continue using SSJ when it also doesn't provide any benefits anymore? Obviously not. I don't see why you think this is so dumb when it is logical thing to do. If Goku can reach a level in his base form that means the SSJ transformations do nothing for him and are practically just for show now then he may as well just stop using the transformations. What can he do if he reaches his peak? All he can do is keep training to maintain the peak. Captain America has peak human ability in every department and apart from becoming an actual super human he will forever remain at peak human ability. So Goku being at peak Saiyan ability will be the exact same scenario.

I don't see why still think this isn't the best route to go down. While, out-of-universe, it'll be horrible because we lose the entertainment value of the SSJ transformations that is of little consequence when we think of the in-universe reasons.

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Cursed Lemon
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Re: Toriyama says Goku won't turn Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any mo

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri May 30, 2014 9:13 pm

You are speaking on the premise that he HAS to hit a peak, and that there is no creativity left in the SSJ1-SSJ3 hierarchy, or that we can't have other characters (coughTrunksandGoten) actually start improving via transformations.

It doesn't have to be about Goku breaking the mold. Throwing out super saiyan is like throwing out space travel in Star Trek.
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