GT Power Level Questions

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GT Power Level Questions

Post by xmysticgohanx » Fri May 23, 2014 3:24 am

Why do people think Base Goku = SSJ3 Buu Arc Goku and SSJ4 is a 10x boost?
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri May 23, 2014 3:56 am

For starters, in GT, when Goku is squaring off to fight Rild, he makes the comment that Trunks and Pan shouldn't interfere, because Rild is even stronger than Ma-jin Buu, and then proceeds to fight Rild in his base form for awhile before eventually transforming after Rild powers up. For Goku to fight so well against an enemy that's even stronger than Ma-jin Buu (which form of Buu he's referring to is debatable) that likely puts him at levels in the Ssj3 range. Likewise, Goku is able to effortlessly defeat Cell, said to be even more powerful than he was during the Cell Games, while in his base form, which puts Goku's base at least around Z Ssj2 strength if not higher. There are other indicators as well, such as Goku's fight with Uub at the beginning of the series, but most clues point to him being in or around Ssj3 strength while in his base form.

As for Ssj4, there's no official numbers or multipliers for it, but the 10x boost usually stems from them incorporating the Oozaru transformation into the form, which was stated to multiply a Saiya-jin's battle power by 10x. Some people believe that it's just 10x as powerful as Super Saiya-jin is, since it is essentially a Super Saiya-jin Oozaru in a compressed and controlled state (thus 500x stronger than the Saiya-jin's base), while I've seen others believe that it's 10x as powerful as Super Saiya-jin 3, putting it in the ballpark of 4,000x the Saiya-jin's base.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri May 23, 2014 9:24 am

Not to mention when he goes SSJ1 he leaves a crater that rivals if not surpasses the one Nappa made after blowing up West City.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Herms » Fri May 23, 2014 3:28 pm

I think the x10 thing is supposed to come from Baby's side of the equation. He beats up SSj3 Goku, but gets outclassed by SSj4 Goku, then becomes an Oozaru and fights evenly with him. That would make the difference between SSj3 and 4 Goku x10 at the bare minimum, assuming that the whole "Oozaru transformation=x10" thing still applies to Baby. It should probably be way higher than x10 really, since Baby seemed to be way stronger than SSj3 Goku. This is also assuming that the silver-haired "Super Baby" already counts as Super Saiyan or equivalent; otherwise the bare minimum might become x500 or something...
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:12 pm

Herms wrote:I think the x10 thing is supposed to come from Baby's side of the equation. He beats up SSj3 Goku, but gets outclassed by SSj4 Goku, then becomes an Oozaru and fights evenly with him. That would make the difference between SSj3 and 4 Goku x10 at the bare minimum, assuming that the whole "Oozaru transformation=x10" thing still applies to Baby. It should probably be way higher than x10 really, since Baby seemed to be way stronger than SSj3 Goku. This is also assuming that the silver-haired "Super Baby" already counts as Super Saiyan or equivalent; otherwise the bare minimum might become x500 or something...
Id say X1000 to 1200 would be fitting enough.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Savage68 » Fri May 23, 2014 8:08 pm

If I remember correctly, later on during the fight with Rild (once Rild powers-up), Goku says something along the lines of "I knew you had been holding back all along." So I'm not sure if Rild's base state is what Goku was comparing to Boo.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri May 23, 2014 9:45 pm

Also Goku somehow tanking Super Yi Xing Long's attacks.

Base Goku>SSJ4 Goku beyond limits>SSJ4 Goku>Base Goku?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by xmysticgohanx » Sat May 24, 2014 1:23 am

Herms wrote:I think the x10 thing is supposed to come from Baby's side of the equation. He beats up SSj3 Goku, but gets outclassed by SSj4 Goku, then becomes an Oozaru and fights evenly with him. That would make the difference between SSj3 and 4 Goku x10 at the bare minimum, assuming that the whole "Oozaru transformation=x10" thing still applies to Baby. It should probably be way higher than x10 really, since Baby seemed to be way stronger than SSj3 Goku. This is also assuming that the silver-haired "Super Baby" already counts as Super Saiyan or equivalent; otherwise the bare minimum might become x500 or something...
I think the minimum must be 500x because Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku so there's no way that's only Vegeta's power and Goku said Super Baby was the highest ki Goku has ever felt so that can't be equal to SSJ Vegeta.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Hitiro » Sat May 24, 2014 4:57 am

xmysticgohanx wrote:Why do people think Base Goku = SSJ3 Buu Arc Goku and SSJ4 is a 10x boost?
When is this ever said? SSJ4 has always been considered 4,000x base on here as far as people are concerned I believe. SSJ4 is SSJ3 x 10. That is the only 10x people reference.

The problem with GT Power Level's is we get a Yo-Yo effect like in the Superman comics. Where the characters strength fluctuates from not being able to do something to being able to easily do something. A perfect example is Base Goku tanking Omega Shenron's attacks when he could barely put up a fight in SSJ4. I mean Gohan was supposed to be the strongest out of all the Saiyan's which could pick apart Evil Boo. Yet he can't defeat Rild when Goku had already clarified that he was stronger than Majin Boo? The only Boo's Goku has experience fighting are Good Boo and Pure Boo so it is probably one of them too. And even if that isn't the case Gohan was still destroying Evil Boo so he should be more than a match for Rild. What also doesn't make sense is Beibi gunning for Vegeta. Does that make Vegeta stronger than Gohan then? By that extension SSJ Vegeta should be on par with SSJ Goku because Base Vegeta would be stronger than Ultimate Gohan? So why did SSJ Vegeta struggle against Super 17 more than SSJ Goku? Power level consistency is a bit all over the place in GT.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Saiga » Sat May 24, 2014 6:06 am

I'm pretty sure by 10x boost he meant 10x SS3. But not everybody believes that - I think that 40,000x base boost works best of all.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Nazi Cola » Tue May 27, 2014 12:22 pm

I don't even see a reason to use a static multiplier for Super Saiyan 4 other than battle power list cleanliness. In GT itself the form is stated to unlock all of Goku's dormant power, which is backed up by the Perfect Files.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue May 27, 2014 12:29 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:I don't even see a reason to use a static multiplier for Super Saiyan 4 other than battle power list cleanliness. In GT itself the form is stated to unlock all of Goku's dormant power, which is backed up by the Perfect Files.
Super Saiyan 3 does the same according to Daizenshuu, and it is implied through Ultimate Gohan in the manga that the all of the Super Saiyan forms draw dormant power.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Blade » Tue May 27, 2014 3:24 pm

The problem with GT is that, like the Manga, Goku is always exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be. However, in the latter, Toriyama usually made sense of things by visually depicting the leaps and jumps in Goku's power through on-screen training, new techniques or transformations. This allowed for retrospective guidebooks like Daizenshuu 7 to attempt to map the changes in Goku's strength to a set of strength multipliers.

However - in GT, apart from Super Saiyan 4, the writers just went with a totally ad-hoc approach by which Goku's use of his base form and Super Saiyan seem to be used more for dramatic pacing, aesthetic purposes or brand identification during fights, with little or no regard for in-universe logic. What's most confusing is that in the GT Perfect files it's stated that Goku was turned into a child because the writers felt they couldn't do anything interesting with the character, and that at the end of the Manga, he was too powerful. Unfortunately, this concept appears to have done little to come into consideration beyond being an initial premise - and the writers just continued where the Manga left off by introducing increasingly bombastic and powerful villains.

What a waste.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed May 28, 2014 9:43 am

Blade wrote:The problem with GT is that, like the Manga, Goku is always exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be.
No, this isn't how the manga worked. In the manga, Goku (and everyone else) isn't as strong as the plot needs him to be, he gets as strong as the plot needs him to be. There is a big difference in that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Blade » Wed May 28, 2014 1:15 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Blade wrote:The problem with GT is that, like the Manga, Goku is always exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be.
No, this isn't how the manga worked. In the manga, Goku (and everyone else) isn't as strong as the plot needs him to be, he gets as strong as the plot needs him to be. There is a big difference in that.
Did you read all of my post? That's basically exactly what I said in the sentence following the part you quoted.
in the latter, Toriyama usually made sense of things by visually depicting the leaps and jumps in Goku's power through on-screen training, new techniques or transformations
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Hitiro » Wed May 28, 2014 5:43 pm

Well, Toriyama did mix it up a little by putting Gohan as the strongest for the Cell Games and onwards. And he actually took it in another direction in the Boo arc and made Goku and Vegeta weaken Evil Boo to Pure Boo so they would stand a chance rather than finding some way of making Goku or any of the others strong enough to win. Excluding the Power-up Gohan got and Gotenks because while they were both perfectly capable of handling Evil Boo they didn't "win."

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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu May 29, 2014 1:15 am

Savage68 wrote:If I remember correctly, later on during the fight with Rild (once Rild powers-up), Goku says something along the lines of "I knew you had been holding back all along." So I'm not sure if Rild's base state is what Goku was comparing to Boo.
I remember he said something similar too. I would put Rild's base form around Super Buu level. His Metallic form would be around Buutenks level at best. To me, SSj3 Vegito would be stronger then SSj4 Goku and could beat most GT characters on his own.
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Re: GT Power Level Questions

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu May 29, 2014 3:07 am

Blade wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Blade wrote:The problem with GT is that, like the Manga, Goku is always exactly as strong as the plot needs him to be.
No, this isn't how the manga worked. In the manga, Goku (and everyone else) isn't as strong as the plot needs him to be, he gets as strong as the plot needs him to be. There is a big difference in that.
Did you read all of my post? That's basically exactly what I said in the sentence following the part you quoted.
in the latter, Toriyama usually made sense of things by visually depicting the leaps and jumps in Goku's power through on-screen training, new techniques or transformations
Well... you see... I... :shifty:
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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