Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

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Regarder
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Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Regarder » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:49 pm

Hello!

I'd like to present a pseudo-theory on the whole "SS is 10/50 times!" thing. Sort of a theory... bear with me. It's a guesstimate based on... stuff. :oops:

(This is out of universe stuff, right, because it deals with what Toriyama intended as a writer, and not internal justifications as if the story were real? Right forum?)


When people heard this quote; "At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then", the reaction by and large was that this didn't make sense! If Toriyama thinks that 50 times is too excessive, then how can 10x Kaioken 10 or 20, which would yield multipliers of 100 and 200 times base respectively, not be even more "extravagant"? Is this a case of Toriyama just being forgetful?

Maybe it's the most likely explanation, but I want to raise another possibility. When we think of Super Saiyan now, we think of the golden warrior Goku became at that exact time after Freeza killed Kuririn. However, artistically speaking, from an out of universe perspective, this may not have been what Toriyama had intended all along. At a certain point, he had the idea for a legend of the Saiyans, and then he gradually developed more of the idea as we want along. We know that the idea to have the Super Saiyan be a form which golden hair and light eyes was created at some point after the basic concept was; perhaps for inking reasons, as much as drama, Toriyama hints.

Looking at it from a forwards perspective, rather than looking backwards with what we know now, we might say that at a certain point, when he was actually thinking in terms of multiplying battle power, Toriyama did intend for Goku to multiply by ten times to be a Super Saiyan. However, with the amount of delays in getting to that point, and the way the story was largely made up as he went along, Toriyama changed tack as the power level progression required, and the Super Saiyan became the explicit form which is greater than Kaioken, as opposed to the simple state of being, or level of power that Vegeta kept implying before then. *phew* That was a long run on sentence...

Is there any evidence for this? No. Not really. I can only present it as a possibility, but I can explain my gut feeling on this. It's clear that Super Saiyan didn't appear fully formed in one go, and it's also clear that Vegeta kept up a belief that a Super Saiyan was simply a stratospheric legendary level of power rather than a form (Only the anime shows a golden ape. At what time was that?). From an in-universe perspective we can say that Vegeta just didn't know. Even an out of universe perspective allows us to say that Toriyama knew all along exactly what SS was, and at what level of power it would appear, and was just using misdirection for the sake of drama. I'm skeptical of this because I know of how Toriyama wrote the series; he had some overviews of things generally, but largely he claims to have made up the story chapter by chapter. Toriyama also hints that there was a period when the SS concept wasn't complete.

There's something else as well. In the ending pages of Chapter 270, we read this:

GOKU: "Now I can even take Kaioken 10!"

*next page*

NARRATOR: "Goku doesn't know... that he now has the potential to become a Super Saiayan."


Well now... Did Toriyama originally intend for the Super Saiyan to be Goku at Kaioken x10? It fits with thinking of the battle powers in terms of a 10 times increase when he was drawing it, and all the time Vegeta was hyping Goku (and himself!) up as having become Super Saiyans, the KKx10 had not yet been shown off. Could Vegeta's hype have instead been intended to eventually resolve with Kakarot unveiling his KKx10, defeating Freeza, and attaining the status of a Super Saiyan?

We'll never know. The power levels check out though. Goku at 90,000 using the KKx10 reaches a power level of 900,000; enough to beat Freeza's 530,000!

However, Toriyama has Freeza transform many times, and moves away from giving measurements of their battle power (and probably keeping track of it!), and many other Zenkai powerups occur based on making up the story as he went along to fit the battles. By the time Goku actually fights Freeza, Freeza is in his final form, and Goku has gained a gigantic power up. The battle progresses more, until KKx10 is shown to have been used already, and is still not enough to beat Freeza. We don't know when, but at some point here, the golden haired warrior may have been invented, and after many many chapters of fighting it is finally revealed, and by this point the KK logic makes a 10 times multiplier iffy... but Toriyama wasn't keeping track of battle powers at this point!

Is it possible? We'll never know... but it's something to think about if we think about how Toriyama makes his stories, and the 10x move which was hyped just a page from the second mention of SS ever.


tl;dr - Toriyama was thinking of the Super Saiyan as a level of legendary power, and post-gravity training Goku at 10x Kaio-Ken was supposed to achieve it. However, giving the piece by piece way he makes his stories, the battles he wrote led more naturally to events leading away from what he originally intended. By the time, he finally reveals SS and develops it fully into a "form", he'd stopped thinking about power levels, so outside sources calculating what eventually happened based on earlier power levels was a little "extravagant" compared to the multiplier he'd originally intended for SS when he was actually focused on battle powers. Or so says I, with no evidence! :D

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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Kuwabara » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:01 pm

......epic
Last edited by Kuwabara on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Herms » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:02 pm

Regarder wrote:There's something else as well. In the ending pages of Chapter 270, we read this:

GOKU: "Now I can even take Kaioken 10!"

*next page*

NARRATOR: "Goku doesn't know... that he now has the potential to become a Super Saiayan."
I don't know what translation you're using, but it's a bit off. In Japanese the narrator says "even Goku hasn’t realized…that somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits” (I think the Viz translation stuck pretty close to the original as well). It certainly seems like it's hinting at Goku becoming a Super Saiyan, but the phrase "Super Saiyan" itself isn't used at all. Which may seem minor (OK, it probably is minor), but the concept of a "Super Saiyan" still hadn't been properly introduced at this point. We just had Nappa's offhand comment about Earthling/Saiyan hybrids being "Super Saiyans", and Freeza mumbling to himself about how it'd be annoying if one of the remaining Saiyans became a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Regarder » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:07 pm

Herms wrote:
Regarder wrote:There's something else as well. In the ending pages of Chapter 270, we read this:

GOKU: "Now I can even take Kaioken 10!"

*next page*

NARRATOR: "Goku doesn't know... that he now has the potential to become a Super Saiayan."
I don't know what translation you're using, but it's a bit off. In Japanese the narrator says "even Goku hasn’t realized…that somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits” (I think the Viz translation stuck pretty close to the original as well). It certainly seems like it's hinting at Goku becoming a Super Saiyan, but the phrase "Super Saiyan" itself isn't used at all.

Ah I see. So it's not as close as I thought. Vegeta talks about the Super Saiyan legend in terms of "surpassing all limits" later when Goku is about to fight Recoom though, right?

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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Herms » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:17 pm

[quote="Regarder""]Ah I see. So it's not as close as I thought. Vegeta talks about the Super Saiyan legend in terms of "surpassing all limits" later when Goku is about to fight Recoom though, right?[/quote]
Sort of. He describes the Super Saiyan as "a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome". Then later when Goku shows up to fight Freeza, he says Goku "seems [to have] finally overcome the wall of his limits…is he a Super Saiyan?" So "surpassing all limits" might be an overstatement, but the concept of surpassing limits/wall/etc does seem bound up with the idea of a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:21 am

tl;dr - Toriyama was thinking of the Super Saiyan as a level of legendary power, and post-gravity training Goku at 10x Kaio-Ken was supposed to achieve it. However, giving the piece by piece way he makes his stories, the battles he wrote led more naturally to events leading away from what he originally intended. By the time, he finally reveals SS and develops it fully into a "form", he'd stopped thinking about power levels, so outside sources calculating what eventually happened based on earlier power levels was a little "extravagant" compared to the multiplier he'd originally intended for SS when he was actually focused on battle powers. Or so says I, with no evidence! :D
This sounds like a cool theory. It's true, "Super Saiyan" was repeatedly referenced as simply a super powerful saiyan at this point (Ginyu and Vegeta think Goku is one when he displays a battle power of ~60,000, below his true power of 90,000, and his KK power of 900,000). Goku also seems to be taken out rather abruptly from the story; he gets there and starts curb-stomping henchmen, only to be crippled again, necessitating ANOTHER "stall for Goku" non-battle, and ANOTHER bullshit boost for Goku. That seems too clunky to be thought out ahead of time. Freeza was already stated to be a transformation-type by this point, so I guess he'd make only one transformation to fight Goku. His initial 530,000 level would be insufficient to put up any fight against 900,000 Goku.

Now, the problems with this theory: the biggest is that Goku would then essentially be able to get rid of Freeza himself right there. That'd cut the Freeza arc in half, and not really give Freeza any chance to show off his strength outside of curb-stomping Nail. Plus, Vegeta would still be a loose end. Another big one is the way Toriyama's comment is worded. He seems to imply that A. his comment was referring to the actual Goku vs Freeza battle, and B. he always intended SS to have a separate design.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Toriyama and the SSJ multiplier

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:25 am

RandomGuy96 wrote: Now, the problems with this theory: the biggest is that Goku would then essentially be able to get rid of Freeza himself right there. That'd cut the Freeza arc in half, and not really give Freeza any chance to show off his strength outside of curb-stomping Nail. Plus, Vegeta would still be a loose end.
You could use this to say that this is the reason why Toriyama extended everything. The natural flow of the story felt better when he extended the pay-off to the hype. If he was making it up more or less only a chapter or so in advance, this sort of stuff would happen. If he ever had a general overview, it became distorted and reshaped by the process of making it up as he went along, or possibly by outside influences. We know he went as far to progress from 19 and 20 to 17 and 18 to Cell because of some snark by his ex-editor (I think it was his editor), and that he had Goku lose the first two Budokais and killed Vegeta specifically because fans told him not to.

RandomGuy96 wrote: Another big one is the way Toriyama's comment is worded. He seems to imply that A. his comment was referring to the actual Goku vs Freeza battle, and B. he always intended SS to have a separate design.
This may be clincher. I was just trying to go through hoops to save him from the "forgets everything" charge. Now look what you've done! :D

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