Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

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Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

Post by Angelus » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:49 pm

This is post-Buu arc of course, because it's Battle of Gods. Beerus tells base Goku that Goku wouldn't have been able to beat Freeza. Goku then transforms to his SSJ forms. Does this BoG scene confirm this? Beerus did refer to 100% final form Freeza right?

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by BlackMagick » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:24 am

I'd assume, yes, Beerus is implying that Goku can't defeat Freeza without transforming into a SSJ. It doesn't seem like Beerus would be unable to sense one's energy reading. But maybe Beerus can't tell how strong Goku is if he's surpressing his strength in his base. But if you really think about it, it doesn't seem too unlikely that Goku wouldn't be strong enough. I mean, at the end of the Freeza arc, Goku's power level was roughly 3 million. I believe it to be reasonable for Goku's base strength to be anywhere between 3 million and 120 million by the Boo saga especially considering how much of a boost Goku gets off of his SSJ forms. It really comes down to whether or not Beerus has the ability to accurately sense how powerful an enemy can become.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Pantalones » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:01 am

Yep. That definitely seems to be what Beerus is suggesting--that Goku couldn't beat Freeza "the way he is now" (in base form), and Goku's response is not just powering up, but going Super Saiyan. Nothing has ever really suggested that the base Saiyans surpassed Freeza anyway, aside from maybe one random scene in the Janemba movie where Gohan kills (4th form but not bulked-up/100%) Freeza in a single hit without even going Super Saiyan. And even that wasn't the bulked-up 100% Freeza but "regular" 4th-form Freeza, so even that scene doesn't necessarily claim that Gohan is beyond 120,000,000 in base form--Freeza could just be in his initial 4th form's 3,000,000ish level, which Gohan definitely could stomp at this point. (This scene also involves Freeza randomly exploding just from being punched really hard, so it's not exactly the most realistic scene in any sense. XD)

Plus, for the base Saiyans to surpass 100% Freeza, their power growth would have to be the exact opposite of what's actually stated/shown in the series. There's nothing suggesting that they became 40-50x stronger in their base forms than they were at the end of the Freeza saga. The huge drastic boosts like what the Saiyans got from being near-death in the Freeza saga stopped happening after that point; nobody suddenly becomes 30 times stronger out of nowhere after Freeza. Any big power boost for the Saiyans after Freeza comes from at least 1 year of training in harsh/unusual conditions (or multiple years outside of them), a new transformation/power unlocking, or rage. There's the 3 years of Android training (which doesn't seem to have given the Saiyans really huge gains in base power, going by how Piccolo definitely surpasses their base forms during this period and seems to be brushing up against low-end SSj levels by the end, going by his performance against #20 and #17 compared to how well the weaker Saiyans--sick Goku and Trunks--did against similar opponents), and then after that the Saiyans mostly train to "surpass Super Saiyan" rather than just to increase their base power, since accessing higher forms is the only way to get big boosts in power quickly at this point.

The last clear claims of drastic base power gains are when Vegeta claims to have more-than-tripled his power during his first year-in-a-day of training (and even that may just be a dub line--I know I remember him saying that at some point, though)... but that more-than-tripling was probably a combination of his base power gains and the unlocking of the Super Saiyan "Grade 2" transformation rather than just his gains in base form. Again, the whole point of that training was to "go beyond Super Saiyan" after seeing how outclassed their current Super Saiyan states were against the Androids, so what Vegeta's bragging about here is logically his new ascended-beyond-Super-Saiyan form's power (...which is what he immediately shows off against Cell.) Of course, Goku and Gohan got even more drastic boosts than that from their training (...but even their boosts are somewhat transformation-centric, since their huge gains came from figuring out that making their bodies adapt to Super Saiyan as a natural state is better overall than just forcing yourself through more extreme training and pumping more power into unnatural transformations on top of regular SSj), but after that point? Goku trained for 7 years and all he managed in terms of base power is to get strong enough that his newly-gained SSj2 state somewhat surpassed that of Cell Games-era enraged SSj2 Gohan. In other words, he couldn't have even doubled his base power in 7 years, since he wasn't that far behind Gohan to begin with (yeah, Gohan was definitely the strongest during the Cell Games, but it only became a huge gap when he went SSj2 and probably got a rage boost on top of that.) Almost ALL of the power increase he gained during those 7 years was through the unlocking of SSj2 and SSj3 transformations (an 8x boost total) rather than gaining base power.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:12 am

The "tripling" line you're referring to is when he comes out of the Room of Spirit and Time, and Goku tells him that he would have had to more than triple his strength to be of any use. Vegeta scoffs at this, and says something to the effect of "Triple? Oh Kakarot, you have no idea....mwahahaha"
Or something like that. Evil laugh added for emphasis.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Angelus » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

So this confirms the long debate then, that base Saiyans have never surpassed 100% Frieza even at the End of Z?

This raises some questions though... apparently Bills can't tell what your full power is. So when Bills refers to Frieza, is he referring to 100% Frieza or just initial final form Frieza?

Because surely, base Goku can beat Frieza's form 1, 2, and 3 without Kaoiken. So Bills has to be referring to final form Frieza right?

Does this mean that the peak of a base Saiyan is just about around the same power level no-Kaoiken Goku exhibited when he was fighting final form Frieza on Namek?


And another question arises... how "suppressed" was Goku in his base form that Bills said that Goku couldn't beat Frieza? Because it would be inconsistent if Bills can tell how powerful final form Frieza was but can't tell how powerful Goku truly is.

Could this mean that Goku was suppressed to maybe a power level of 5? Remember, Trunks suppressed his power level to 5 when he first faced off King Cold's troops on Earth. So that means a base Saiyan could suppress himself in base form to a power level of 5. Heck, Krillin and Gohan suppressed their power levels to 0 when they were on Namek to avoid detection.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Saiga » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:21 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:The "tripling" line you're referring to is when he comes out of the Room of Spirit and Time, and Goku tells him that he would have had to more than triple his strength to be of any use. Vegeta scoffs at this, and says something to the effect of "Triple? Oh Kakarot, you have no idea....mwahahaha"
Or something like that. Evil laugh added for emphasis.
And just to add, it is indeed a dub line.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:31 am

I personally definitely think that Goku wasn't even several 10 millions at base on King Kai's planet. I think at best case he was 10-20 millions. And according to Toriyama's latest statement Goku realised that to train to achieve new SSJ forms isn't the best way to get stronger, so he better began to train his base and SSJ1 form. (Maybe he meant that after absorbing God power, maybe he meant it universal, we all know that the base to form is the most stable).

I think that even without God power-up EOZ Goku was stronger than 100% Frieza. I do not see Super Saiyan multipliers constant ones. I mean even if Goku and Vegeta are the smae at base, their SSJ forms don't need to be the same strong.
Could this mean that Goku was suppressed to maybe a power level of 5? Remember, Trunks suppressed his power level to 5 when he first faced off King Cold's troops on Earth. So that means a base Saiyan could suppress himself in base form to a power level of 5. Heck, Krillin and Gohan suppressed their power levels to 0 when they were on Namek to avoid detection.
I do no think Goku was only 5 at King Kai's planet where the gravity is 10x. He should be suppressed at least to 5000 units to resist easily that high gravity. But even then that doesn't mean that Goku should able to beat Frieza. Maybe Goku's power level was highly suppressed when Beerus spoke about his power, but Goku didn't really argue against Beerus statement to not be able to beat Frieza in base, and King Kai also confirmed that.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by BlackMagick » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:58 am

This raises some questions though... apparently Bills can't tell what your full power is. So when Bills refers to Freeza, is he referring to 100% Freeza or just initial final form Freeza?

Because surely, base Goku can beat Freeza's form 1, 2, and 3 without Kaoiken. So Bills has to be referring to final form Freeza right?

Does this mean that the peak of a base Saiyan is just about around the same power level no-Kaoiken Goku exhibited when he was fighting final form Freeza on Namek?


And another question arises... how "suppressed" was Goku in his base form that Bills said that Goku couldn't beat Freeza? Because it would be inconsistent if Bills can tell how powerful final form Freeza was but can't tell how powerful Goku truly is.
That's actually a good point but it is possible that Beerus could've known about Freeza's final form. Although Freeza didn't transform very often it's implied that he's used the form at least once before. I would assume that he's referring to Final Form Freeza because Goku's power EASILY outclasses Freeza's other forms even with a suppressed power level.

Well, it's still reasonable to believe that Goku's base form has gotten much stronger. I don't think there's an actual peak. Goku's source of strength has just always come from his Super Saiyan forms, post-Freeza arc and he would always need those dramatic boosts to fight evenly with the enemy.

That is indeed the question. There's no telling how suppressed Goku really was, if he even suppressed power at all. Nothing really implies that Goku was suppressing his strength and nothing implied that he was a full power at his base. Assuming that Beerus has seen Freeza's Final Form, it wouldn't be inconsistent for Beerus not being able to sense that Goku has more power beyond his base. That being said, if Beerus was referring to Freeza's First Form, which I think is unlikely, then yes, that would be an inconsistency. But you'd also have to keep in mind that Goku's power has drastically increased throughout the series, whereas Freeza's power probably remained the same. It's not like he's one to train or anything. He was born with that power; he's a mutant.
Low Tone G wrote:I personally definitely think that Goku wasn't even several 10 millions at base on King Kai's planet. I think at best case he was 10-20 millions. And according to Toriyama's latest statement Goku realised that to train to achieve new SSJ forms isn't the best way to get stronger, so he better began to train his base and SSJ1 form. (Maybe he meant that after absorbing God power, maybe he meant it universal, we all know that the base to form is the most stable).

I think that even without God power-up EOZ Goku was stronger than 100% Freeza. I do not see Super Saiyan multipliers constant ones. I mean even if Goku and Vegeta are the smae at base, their SSJ forms don't need to be the same strong.
Could this mean that Goku was suppressed to maybe a power level of 5? Remember, Trunks suppressed his power level to 5 when he first faced off King Cold's troops on Earth. So that means a base Saiyan could suppress himself in base form to a power level of 5. Heck, Krillin and Gohan suppressed their power levels to 0 when they were on Namek to avoid detection.
I do no think Goku was only 5 at King Kai's planet where the gravity is 10x. He should be suppressed at least to 5000 units to resist easily that high gravity. But even then that doesn't mean that Goku should able to beat Freeza. Maybe Goku's power level was highly suppressed when Beerus spoke about his power, but Goku didn't really argue against Beerus statement to not be able to beat Freeza in base, and King Kai also confirmed that.
I agree with everything but that last part. I mean, if he could, then why wouldn't Goku show Beerus that he could beat Freeza in his base form? And yes, King Kai confirmed that Goku was transformed while fighting Freeza; the fact that he transformed right after Beerus says that Goku couldn't beat Freeza as he is now implies that Goku's base form never exceeded Freeza's full power. It might not have exceeded certain increments of Freeza's full power because we don't know how much of his full power he used prior to Goku.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:14 pm

I agree with everything but that last part. I mean, if he could, then why wouldn't Goku show Beerus that he could beat Freeza in his base form? And yes, King Kai confirmed that Goku was transformed while fighting Freeza; the fact that he transformed right after Beerus says that Goku couldn't beat Freeza as he is now implies that Goku's base form never exceeded Freeza's full power. It might not have exceeded certain increments of Freeza's full power because we don't know how much of his full power he used prior to Goku.
Maybe I was formulating wrong back there, but I do share the very same concept like you do. I do not think Goku could have beaten Frieza with his BOG Base power.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:29 pm

I think it's weird that 3 years after Freeza is killed, Piccolo trained hard enough and is strong enough to beat Freeza, but 20 years later Vegeta and Goku, with their crazy gains in power still can't beat Freeza in base. Either Namekians make no sense...or nothing makes sense.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:36 pm

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by BlackMagick » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:51 pm

FoolsGil wrote:I think it's weird that 3 years after Freeza is killed, Piccolo trained hard enough and is strong enough to beat Freeza, but 20 years later Vegeta and Goku, with their crazy gains in power still can't beat Freeza in base. Either Namekians make no sense...or nothing makes sense.
Yeah that was weird, right? Although it was implied that Piccolo trained enough to jump from 1 million to anywhere in Freeza's power range during the timeskip, it's illogical. Piccolo would've had to at the very least get strong enough to take on Freeza at half power and that alone is a 60x boost in THREE YEARS. I don't think he was strong enough to actually beat Freeza after the three year timeskip. I think he becomes strong enough to put up a good fight though. But then again how strong were Android 19 and 20? It's kinda hard to tell, considering that Goku only struggled in his fight with 19 because of the heart virus. See, for a while, I never thought Piccolo exceeded Freeza's strength until after he fused with Kami.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:56 pm

FoolsGil wrote:I think it's weird that 3 years after Freeza is killed, Piccolo trained hard enough and is strong enough to beat Freeza, but 20 years later Vegeta and Goku, with their crazy gains in power still can't beat Freeza in base. Either Namekians make no sense...or nothing makes sense.
Why? The saiyans simply approached the limits of their base power. The gains in that form simply started to be very small. To become significantly stronger they had to focus on the SSJ forms. And on battle of Gods Goku had to rely on SSJ God to become stronger.

Namekians on the other hand don't have SSJ forms, so they don't have to focus on other forms to become stronger.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Regarder » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:24 pm

Isn't it the Buu Saga that really messes it all up for thinking base is weaker than Freeza?

All that confusing stuff about how formidable Supreme Kai thinks Babidi's fighters are, the Piccolo things, and Kibito being shown to be pathetic compared to base Gohan. Maybe Kai is just a panicky wuss, Vegeta was lying, Dabura couldn't sense crap, and Kibito is only a few millions in BP anyway/he has a really high powerlevel but is really pathetic at translating that into physical strength, but Toriyama sure does seem to hype the base Saiyans in the last saga.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:00 am

Regarder wrote:Isn't it the Buu Saga that really messes it all up for thinking base is weaker than Freeza?

All that confusing stuff about how formidable Supreme Kai thinks Babidi's fighters are, the Piccolo things, and Kibito being shown to be pathetic compared to base Gohan. Maybe Kai is just a panicky wuss, Vegeta was lying, Dabura couldn't sense crap, and Kibito is only a few millions in BP anyway/he has a really high powerlevel but is really pathetic and translating that into physical strength, but Toriyama sure does seem to hype the base Saiyans in the last saga.
Well the only instance of Kibito being pathetic in comparison to Gohan is raw strength. That doesn't necessarily say much considering raw strength is not important in a fight. As I have said before in other threads, speed is the most important factor when punching or kicking. Because as you accelerate a mass towards the speed of light it's weight increases. And as in the comics of The Flash, accelerating a punch to the speed of light gives your punch infinite mass which allows you to hit with the force of a white dwarf star. Which is a lot of energy.

Admittedly the Z fighters are probably not swinging around punches at the speed of light. But their punches are still thrown at incredible speeds which would do some serious damage. Gohan said at the tournament he would have a difficult time against Kibito "without showing his true power". Whether that means transforming into a SSJ or fighting properly we never give any indication. Also, what Dabura could sense could be different in terms of what they could sense. Dabura is a magical being and as such Vegeta and Goku could not sense how strong he was. They could only guess that he was as strong as Cell based on his movement and attacks. So, however Dabura was sensing them, it wasn't to do with their Ki. It may have been some sort of magical sensing ability that gauges the strength of the group, transformations and all, but doesn't give an accurate reading of strength like Ki sensing does.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:17 am

Hitiro wrote:Well the only instance of Kibito being pathetic in comparison to Gohan is raw strength. That doesn't necessarily say much considering raw strength is not important in a fight. As I have said before in other threads, speed is the most important factor when punching or kicking. Because as you accelerate a mass towards the speed of light it's weight increases. And as in the comics of The Flash, accelerating a punch to the speed of light gives your punch infinite mass which allows you to hit with the force of a white dwarf star. Which is a lot of energy.
Dragon Ball doesn't care for real life physics.

Also, even something like the Flash is "dumb" because that would mean that he would be stronger than Superman (and pretty much everybody) and he's not. So, even those kind of comics only are consistent regarding stuff like that when they want to.

In fact, if we care for physics, then all speedsters are kind of "dumb" because their power would necessarily mean that they not only would be the fastest, but also the strongest (thanks to their speed) and the most resistant (in order to resist running and attacking and being hit at the speed of light and so on).

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:31 am

rereboy wrote:[Dragon Ball doesn't care for real life physics.

Also, even something like the Flash is "dumb" because that would mean that he would be stronger than Superman (and pretty much everybody) and he's not. So, even those kind of comics only are consistent regarding stuff like that when they want to.

In fact, if we care for physics, then all speedsters are kind of "dumb" because their power would necessarily mean that they not only would be the fastest, but also the strongest (thanks to their speed) and the most resistant (in order to resist running and attacking at the speed of light and so on).
Yes, the Flash is stronger than Superman. But only when he is able to use the Speedforce correctly. The Flash used the Infinite Mass Punch on Superman once but because of Superman's durability and not using the Speedforce to its full potential the Flash actually destroyed his arm. Later on the Flash actually knocks out characters with Superman's durability using the Infinite Mass Punch because he uses the Speedforce correctly.

But like every character in the DC and Marvel universe their strength levels and abilities fluctuate. At some points the Flash is literally a God because he can sap someone's movement using the Speedforce. To the point that they can't move. At other points the Flash can't even run faster than a couple of mach's because they don't use the Speedforce correctly or don't have the affinity for it. Regardless, the Flash can be one of the most powerful characters in the DC universe.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:48 am

Hitiro wrote:Yes, the Flash is stronger than Superman. But only when he is able to use the Speedforce correctly. The Flash used the Infinite Mass Punch on Superman once but because of Superman's durability and not using the Speedforce to its full potential the Flash actually destroyed his arm. Later on the Flash actually knocks out characters with Superman's durability using the Infinite Mass Punch because he uses the Speedforce correctly.

But like every character in the DC and Marvel universe their strength levels and abilities fluctuate. At some points the Flash is literally a God because he can sap someone's movement using the Speedforce. To the point that they can't move. At other points the Flash can't even run faster than a couple of mach's because they don't use the Speedforce correctly or don't have the affinity for it. Regardless, the Flash can be one of the most powerful characters in the DC universe.
Yeah, he did those feats a few times. And other times we got knocked out or beat embarrassingly and totally incoherently with the speed, strength and resistance he should have. Like I said, that only matters when the authors want. In Flash's case they might explain it by saying "oh, he didn't use the speed force correctly", but that's just a general and convenient excuse. And other speedsters like Mercury in Marvel don't even have such excuses.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:55 am

None of them are realistic, but most series which can effectively convey drama are internally consistent to the author's idea of "physics", and not some real world formulation with simulators and calculations. It goes more on a common sense basis and progression. For DC or Marvel comics, it's a bit more difficult because the continuity is wound up like an Nth dimensional ball of yarn, and there have been so many different authors working on the same character over years.

Toriyama had the luxury of being very consistent in terms of his own common sense, at least between the gag portion of the early manga, and the Buu saga, where he moved away from the more serious tone a little and made more heavy use of gags (It's always been a gag manga, but after a certain point there was an element of separation between the different themes of the story). Nothing bad about that, but it does make it hard to say how strong people were at that point, because Toriyama was only intermittently interested in that. That's why there are so many debates about who is stronger, Gohan or Goku, Piccolo or the base Saiyans, Super Buu or Kid Buu, was Dabura SS2 level, how strong was Kai really and how does that affect the other debates, etc. Many consider these debates settled, but I think it's still illustrative to compare to the Cell Saga, a non-power level Saga, in which there aren't so many debates about who is stronger because the relationships between various characters are pretty clear.

It's easy to fit the base Saiyans into the "can't beat Freeza" category in the Cell Saga (with maybe one exception). It gets harder after that. Maybe it's canon now though with BOG.

Hitiro wrote:Well the only instance of Kibito being pathetic in comparison to Gohan is raw strength. That doesn't necessarily say much considering raw strength is not important in a fight.
It's possible, but I feel like that scene was trying to show that Kibito didn't compare. I don't know if Toriyama was thinking "This guy is much weaker in strength than Gohan, much weaker, but his actual power in a fight is so much stronger that it's comparable to Gohan's SS!"

Usually, in fiction (possibly because it's a "common sense" sort of idea, that most authors hew to) if a character is physically weak but manages to be really powerful in a fight, it's because they are really fast or they have some special skill that is just plain hax. Having a big character be really fast has been done before in Dragonball, but those characters were also really powerful physically. It probably doesn't pay to be so much weaker than the opponent that they could simply grapple you and hold you still.

...unless Kibito has really high ki power, but he can't turn it into arm strength, only aura. By that point I think we are giving way too much benefit of the doubt, I think. It seems like Toriyama wanted to show that Kibito was a cocky guy who thought that mortals couldn't cut it comparably. That seemed to be the point of that section (he's mocking Gohan all throughout him trying to lift the Z sword).
Hitiro wrote:Gohan said at the tournament he would have a difficult time against Kibito "without showing his true power". Whether that means transforming into a SSJ or fighting properly we never give any indication.
Yeah, it's true (I think that translation was right), but wasn't it that the earthlings couldn't sense their power at that point? Maybe he was just going on him being huge. Or maybe there's another explanation given that this is the same scene where Toriyama has Gohan go SS2, but then clearly doesn't have him do it against Dabura or Buu (whatever the Daiz says), going as far to contrast the level Gohan is at, with the level beyond SS that Goku and Vegeta are at. :think:

Hitiro wrote:Also, what Dabura could sense could be different in terms of what they could sense. Dabura is a magical being and as such Vegeta and Goku could not sense how strong he was. They could only guess that he was as strong as Cell based on his movement and attacks. So, however Dabura was sensing them, it wasn't to do with their Ki. It may have been some sort of magical sensing ability that gauges the strength of the group, transformations and all, but doesn't give an accurate reading of strength like Ki sensing does.
That's what's even weirder. Dabura and Babidi show themselves to be absolutely abysmal at gauging strength for everything afterwards, so that magical sensing ability wasn't working later. Maybe they heard them and Dabura was just making a big guess as to who was stronger?
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:01 am

rereboy wrote:Yeah, he did those feats a few times. And other times we got knocked out or beat embarrassingly and totally incoherently with the speed, strength and resistance he should have. Like I said, that only matters when the authors want.
And that makes a difference, why? It doesn't change the fact that the Flash can be stronger than Superman. And has been on several occasions. Sure, a great majority of the time Superman is stronger than the Flash. But there are versions of Superman and points in the story where Superman has been weaker than the Flash. I don't see why it is "dumb" when the Flash is stronger than Superman purely because you believe he is not when every characters ability and strength level can change when something is included in the story to lower or strengthen them.

In the Justice League cartoon the Flash actually shows he is stronger than Superman by taking out a fusion of Lex Luthor and Brainiac through using the limit of the Speedforce he was capable of which caused him to nearly die due to being taken in by the Speedforce. As such the Flash chose to never go that fast again as it would probably kill him that time.

In some comics the Flash has feared using his speed because at the time, him using the Speedforce would be unstable. Thus he would never use it over a certain limit.

Other times it was due to mental blocks that would prevent him from going fast.

There are also the cases when the Flash has been affected by a "disease" which would shorten his life if he used the Speedforce too much. So he would use it sparingly.

But it's not like the Flash is the only person who has this problem. There are several characters who go through this. And some of them are also stronger than Superman. It's not like Superman MUST be the strongest in the DC universe. Because that is not the case.
Regarder wrote:It's possible, but I feel like that scene was trying to show that Kibito didn't compare. I don't know if Toriyama was thinking "This guy is much weaker in strength than Gohan, much weaker, but his actual power in a fight is so much stronger that it's comparable to Gohan's SS!"

Usually, in fiction (possibly because it's a "common sense" sort of idea, that most authors hew to) if a character is physically weak but manages to be really powerful in a fight, it's because they are really fast or they have some special skill that is just plain hax. Having a big character be really fast has been done before in Dragonball, but those characters were also really powerful physically. It probably doesn't pay to be so much weaker than the opponent that they could simply grapple you and hold you still.
Well, Superman can benchpress the Earth. The Flash can't. Yet the Flash has been proven to be able to hit harder than Superman. As I said, strength isn't everything. Just because Kibito can't lift as much as Gohan doesn't mean he must be weaker. For all we know Kibito is faster and thus can hit harder. Kibito could also be a better Ki user than Gohan. Much like how Gotenks is incredibly adept at using Ki on an opponent 8x stronger than him and can damage him using Ki. If you go to when SSJ Gotenks was fighting Evil Boo you will see that SSJ Gotenks could only damage him through Ki based attacks. Baring in mind Evil Boo was 8x stronger than him so Gotenks Ki based attacks were very powerful.
Regarder wrote:...unless Kibito has really high ki power, but he can't turn it into arm strength, only aura. By that point I think we are giving way too much benefit of the doubt, I think. It seems like Toriyama wanted to show that Kibito was a cocky guy who thought that mortals couldn't cut it comparably. That seemed to be the point of that section (he's mocking Gohan all throughout him trying to lift the Z sword).
You also have to consider that Saiyan's have a much stronger disposition than other races in certain areas. Saiyans are more durable than humans. So naturally it would take a human more Ki to be as durable as Saiyan of the same level. That is why, for instance, Goku could have the upper hand against an opponent that equals him in strength when he was younger. If Tienshinhan was the same strength as Goku then Goku would have the advantage through his Saiyan attributes of being more durable to survive under the gravity of his home planet.
Regarder wrote:Yeah, it's true (I think that translation was right), but wasn't it that the earthlings couldn't sense their power at that point? Maybe he was just going on him being huge. Or maybe there's another explanation given that this is the same scene where Toriyama has Gohan go SS2, but then clearly doesn't have him do it against Dabura or Buu (whatever the Daiz says), going as far to contrast the level Gohan is at, with the level beyond SS that Goku and Vegeta are at. :think:
I doubt Gohan was going on him being big. If you check back even Goku says that Kibito and the Kaioshin are different from all the other opponents in the tournament. As for Gohan needing to go SSJ2 against Dabura. I think it may be because he never really got all his power back from the drain at the tournament. Kibito was healing him but I don't think he healed him to 100%. That is only a theory though.
Regarder wrote:That's what's even weirder. Dabura and Babidi show themselves to be absolutely abysmal at gauging strength for everything afterwards, so that magical sensing ability wasn't working later. Maybe they heard them and Dabura was just making a big guess as to who was stronger?
As I said, perhaps his ability just discerns who is stronger. Rather than actually gauging strength it just tells you that person A is stronger than person B. But not by how much.
Last edited by Hitiro on Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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