Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:19 am

Hitiro wrote:And that makes a difference, why? It doesn't change the fact that the Flash can be stronger than Superman. And has been on several occasions. Sure, a great majority of the time Superman is stronger than the Flash. But there are versions of Superman and points in the story where Superman has been weaker than the Flash. I don't see why it is "dumb" when the Flash is stronger than Superman purely because you believe he is not when every characters ability and strength level can change when something is included in the story to lower or strengthen them.

In the Justice League cartoon the Flash actually shows he is stronger than Superman by taking out a fusion of Lex Luthor and Brainiac through using the limit of the Speedforce he was capable of which caused him to nearly die due to being taken in by the Speedforce. As such the Flash chose to never go that fast again as it would probably kill him that time.

In some comics the Flash has feared using his speed because at the time, him using the Speedforce would be unstable. Thus he would never use it over a certain limit.

Other times it was due to mental blocks that would prevent him from going fast.

There are also the cases when the Flash has been affected by a "disease" which would shorten his life if he used the Speedforce too much. So he would use it sparingly.

But it's not like the Flash is the only person who has this problem. There are several characters who go through this. And some of them are also stronger than Superman. It's not like Superman MUST be the strongest in the DC universe. Because that is not the case.
It demonstrates that even comics that care about real life physics do not care enough to make it close to actually consistent, let alone Dragon Ball that doesn't even care about that. Heck, we don't even know if Toriyama knew much about real life physics. That is my point.

Also, I didn't argue that Superman was the strongest, it was just an example of a super-hero with several major super-powers at an extreme level.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:43 am

rereboy wrote:It demonstrates that even comics that care about real life physics do not care enough to make it close to actually consistent, let alone Dragon Ball that doesn't even care about that. Heck, we don't even know if Toriyama knew much about real life physics. That is my point.
If that is your point you have a funny way of wording it. Because what your actual point seemed to be is that the Flash isn't stronger than Superman. When he is and can be. As far as the Flash goes he is pretty consistent. The only reason his strength changes is due to:

1. New Flash(The flash mantle gets passed on a few times. The younger generation Flash lack the knowledge of the Speedforce and thus are not as powerful yet.)

2. Story induced reasons like I brought up in my previous post.

Unlike Superman who in one volume is able to zoom around the world in a few seconds yet in the next volume can't zoom to the outskirts of a city to stop a storm of bullets from killing a group of people. Also, it shouldn't take a person to know about real life physics to know that one single fact about speed increasing mass and therefore is more damaging. If you get in a car you know that a faster car is harder to stop and can kill easier than a slower car. A person with average knowledge should know this.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:12 am

Hitiro wrote:If that is your point you have a funny way of wording it. Because what your actual point seemed to be is that the Flash isn't stronger than Superman.
Then, read it again:
rereboy wrote:
Dragon Ball doesn't care for real life physics.

Also, even something like the Flash is "dumb" because that would mean that he would be stronger than Superman (and pretty much everybody) (as is, everybody else that is on Superman's level or stronger) and he's not (the maximum strengh feats of Superman surpass the maximum strength feats of Flash and Superman is consistently shown to be stronger, so Flash just achieves something greater than Superman in strengh when the authors feel like it, instead of being consistently superior as he should be if they followed physics consistently. I thought this was self evident when I said that Flash is not stronger than Superman when he should be). So, even those kind of comics only are consistent regarding stuff like that when they want to.

In fact, if we care for physics, then all speedsters are kind of "dumb" because their power would necessarily mean that they not only would be the fastest, but also the strongest (thanks to their speed) and the most resistant (in order to resist running and attacking and being hit at the speed of light and so on).
rereboy wrote:
Yeah, he did those feats a few times. And other times we got knocked out or beat embarrassingly and totally incoherently with the speed, strength and resistance he should have. Like I said, that only matters when the authors want. In Flash's case they might explain it by saying "oh, he didn't use the speed force correctly", but that's just a general and convenient excuse. And other speedsters like Mercury in Marvel don't even have such excuses.
rereboy wrote:
It demonstrates that even comics that care about real life physics do not care enough to make it close to actually consistent, let alone Dragon Ball that doesn't even care about that. Heck, we don't even know if Toriyama knew much about real life physics. That is my point.

Also, I didn't argue that Superman was the strongest, it was just an example of a super-hero with several major super-powers at an extreme level.
In short, if they actually followed physics consistently (and everything else consistently) then, you are right, Flash is stronger than Superman. But they don't, which is my WHOLE point. As a result, Superman's strengh feats are superior and he is portrayed consistently as stronger, with Flash occasionally doing something greater than Superman when the authors feel like it.

But this was all an example to demonstrate how inconsistent they are even when they care about physics, so regarding Dragon Ball stuff like that is just a lost cause.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:14 pm

You say read it again but all you've done is modified the comments slightly and they still come off as you saying Superman is superior to the Flash.
rereboy wrote:(the maximum strength feats of Superman surpass the maximum strength feats of Flash and Superman is consistently shown to be stronger
I believe Flash's Infinite Mass Punch is superior to ALL of Superman's maximum strength feats. I mean, what maximum strength feat of Superman's surpassed infinity exactly? There isn't one. And I don't know why you say Superman is consistently shown to be stronger than the Flash when that is not true. For starters, the Flash hardly has any opponents in which to show his full potential. He can hardly go around Infinite Mass Punching people who aren't of Superman's durability. Most of his enemies are like Batmans, they have human level durability so they would be atomized. Even so. When are Superman and the Flash ever compared in terms of strength? Both Superman and the Flash pull their punches on enemies that are too weak to take their full power. It just so happens that the Flash has weaker villains than Superman most of the time. The Flash has only had two real villains that are actually require amazing strength to beat. A White Martian, who has the same durability as Superman, which he knocked out using the IMP and Dr. Zoom who uses the Speed Force so he could negate some of the damage(As he is a regular human so if he didn't have the Speed Force protecting him he would be kille) from the IMP but it still knocked him out cold.

Just because the Flash has only shown a feat that surpasses all of Superman's only a couple of times does not make him inferior to Superman because he does those types of feats all the time.

rereboy wrote:Flash just achieves something greater than Superman in strength when the authors feel like it, instead of being consistently superior as he should be if they followed physics consistently. I thought this was self evident when I said that Flash is not stronger than Superman when he should be). So, even those kind of comics only are consistent regarding stuff like that when they want to.
So. Hypothetically, if I can destroy the universe and I never show it then that makes me weaker than a character who destroys cities or moons? The Flash achieves greater things than Superman when there is a need to, yes. But that doesn't mean that when he is just rounding up bank robbers with Guns that he is inferior to Superman just because he isn't throwing around punches with the explosive power of a star.
rereboy wrote:In fact, if we care for physics, then all speedsters are kind of "dumb" because their power would necessarily mean that they not only would be the fastest, but also the strongest (thanks to their speed) and the most resistant (in order to resist running and attacking and being hit at the speed of light and so on).
How is that the case? Not all speedsters use the Speed Force. Only a select few. And why does it make them the strongest or the most resistant? For resistance they only gain that protection from the Speed Force. It also depends on how efficiently they can use the energy from the Speed Force. As I said before, the Flash prior to learning more about the Speed Force could be hurt by his own punches. It is uncertain under what conditions their resistance works. Dr. Zoom who was fighting the Flash was knocked out by an IMP. That shows that they aren't impervious. The Kid Flash uses the Speed Force but he could never go above a couple of mach's. Just because you are a speedster and you have access to the Speed Force doesn't mean you are automatically a god.
rereboy wrote:Yeah, he did those feats a few times. And other times we got knocked out or beat embarrassingly and totally incoherently with the speed, strength and resistance he should have. Like I said, that only matters when the authors want. In Flash's case they might explain it by saying "oh, he didn't use the speed force correctly", but that's just a general and convenient excuse. And other speedsters like Mercury in Marvel don't even have such excuses.
I don't know what comics you are reading but the Flash has never been beaten embarrassingly. And after those huge feats he has never had a problem he couldn't handle. Sure, in the beginning when the Flash wasn't powerful he had difficulty fighting villains. Superman had the same problem in the beginning. Superman was not amazingly strong at the start. He became that strong eventually. It is the same with the Flash. He couldn't use the Speed Force well at the beginning. In fact, at the start he didn't know such a thing existed. But like a martial art he learned about it and got better at using it. For all manner of things. The "Oh, he didn't use the Speed Force correctly" excuses was when he didn't understand how to use the Speed Force. It wasn't just a convenient excuse. He never had a problem punching with the IMP after his first one. They don't just drag that out when there is something that goes wrong. It never happens anymore unless it is a new character who doesn't know how to use the Speed Force.

Also, who is Mercury? You also realise that the Speed Force doesn't exist in the Marvel Universe, right? In the cross over between DC and Marvel the Flash had to use special gear to store Speed Force energy so he could run in the Marvel Universe. And when the energy was close to running out he would have to go back to the DC universe to top up. Are you by chance on about Alex Mercury from the DC universe? Yes, he was a speester with an affinity for the Speed Force. But that just means he has the potential to be as powerful as the Flash. That doesn't automatically give him god-like strength. He has to learn how to use the Speed Force like the Flash did.
rereboy wrote:In short, if they actually followed physics consistently (and everything else consistently) then, you are right, Flash is stronger than Superman. But they don't, which is my WHOLE point. As a result, Superman's strengh feats are superior and he is portrayed consistently as stronger, with Flash occasionally doing something greater than Superman when the authors feel like it.

But this was all an example to demonstrate how inconsistent they are even when they care about physics, so regarding Dragon Ball stuff like that is just a lost cause.
Again, when is Superman's feats shown to be superior than the Flash's? He is not consistently shown as stronger. They never fight the same villains. The Flash never goes up against the same enemies as Superman so how can you judge their respective strengths and say the Flash is weaker?

In fact, Pre-Crisis Superman is extremely more powerful than Post-Crisis Superman (Essentially they de-powered a lot of super hero's after the Crisis period) who would just about beat Pre-Crisis Darkseid and the current Flash would defeat Darkseid if he went into the fight with the intention of going all out. And a majority of people also think this on comic sites.

So that basically tells you:

Post-Crisis Flash 100%(Flash was actually weaker before the Crisis) > Pre-Crisis Superman > Pre-Crisis Darkseid >>>>>>>>>>>>> Post-Crisis Superman.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Kaboom » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:41 pm

When and how did this become so off-topic and unrelated to Dragon Ball?



Anyway, as for the original question, yes, that seems to be what Beerus suggests. In terms of the speculation to whether or not Goku was suppressed (or if that's even a factor), there's a certain rule of thumb I've more or less adopted. When a character being suppressed or holding back actually factors into the plot (or at least into a fight), it's almost always set up or revealed that way.

Goku powers up from 5,000 to 8,000 to fight Nappa. Vegeta realizes that Goku is unleashing his power in bursts against the Ginyus. Freeza suddenly whips out 50% and pummels Goku. Dr. Gero finds out the hard way that he didn't steal jack from Piccolo. Fat Boo suddenly powers up and demolishes Dabra, Gohan, and Kaioshin. Goku tells Tarble to watch his scouter and powers up for him. Etcetera.

But there was never any such "revelation" for what Beerus surmised about Goku, despite being plenty of opportunities for it. Before fighting Beerus, Goku could have bragged or at least thought to himself, "I don't even need Super Saiyan to beat Freeza anymore, so wait'll you see how strong I am with it now." After the fight, Kaio could have remarked that Goku was much stronger than Beerus thought he was but still no match. Earlier in the movie, Whis could have even said, "all the Saiyans on Earth can go Super Saiyan, but they've become so strong they could beat Freeza even without it." But no, the only follow-up to the line is Kaio agreeing with him.

Point being, the movie gives us no reason to believe that what Beerus says is incorrect. And if one assumes that it's incorrect anyway, then the line ceases to have any reason to be in the movie at all.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:15 pm

Kaboom wrote:Logic
So to basically sum up the entire point of this thread, no. Goku cannot beat Freeza without Super Saiyan by BOG.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Cetra » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:32 pm

KentalSSJ6 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Logic
So to basically sum up the entire point of this thread, no. Goku cannot beat Freeza without Super Saiyan by BOG.
So Vegeta wanted to fight normal against Cyborg 18 in the Tenkaichi Budokai and said he is still the strongest even though she was the strongest in the group?
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Tectorman » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:58 pm

Cetra wrote:
KentalSSJ6 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Logic
So to basically sum up the entire point of this thread, no. Goku cannot beat Freeza without Super Saiyan by BOG.
So Vegeta wanted to fight normal against Cyborg 18 in the Tenkaichi Budokai and said he is still the strongest even though she was the strongest in the group?
Well, when has Vegeta ever been humble?

I think it was mostly arrogance when he said it on the plane. Had the tournament gone on as planned and had Vegeta and #18 ended up in a bout together, I think we'd be seeing a quick dismissal of his agreement to not use SSJ.

After all, he yelled at Goku for Goten's cheap shot when he went SSJ against Trunks, but we didn't hear a peep about Trunks winning by doing the same thing.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:55 pm

I wonder if SS didn't feel so natural and easy by that point that he couldn't have just become SS for a single KO punch (against Piccolo and/or 18) that none of the regular humans of the audience would see.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:08 am

Hitiro wrote:You say read it again but all you've done is modified the comments slightly and they still come off as you saying Superman is superior to the Flash.
I said to read it again because you obviously have trouble understanding my points, even though they are clear, and you muddle those points by insisting in dissecting lateral subjects and examples, making the discussion spin into complete offtopic.

As it was obvious from my posts, my point was to demonstrate that those real life physics rules are only consistently followed by comics when they want to, and in Dragon Ball there's not even an admission of those principles. My talk about Superman and Flash was only an example demonstrating how, by following those rules, the Flash should be consistently more powerful in regards to Superman than he is portrayed to be, that's all. There's hundreds of examples capable of demonstrating that even if you don't agree with that particular one.

So, my point should have been perfectly clear and understood by you by now, but you insisted in dissecting details or examples instead of actually understanding what I meant and realizing that, indeed, Dragon Ball doesn't care about such principles and is kind of foolish to discuss it even remotely seriously regarding Dragon Ball, especially since even comics that supposedly take such things into consideration do not follow them consistently at all.

As for the off topic Superman and Flash talk:

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Hitiro » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:28 am

rereboy wrote:I said to read it again because you obviously have trouble understanding my points, even though they are clear, and you muddle those points by insisting in dissecting lateral subjects and examples, making the discussion spin into complete offtopic.

As it was obvious from my posts, my point was to demonstrate that those real life physics rules are only consistently followed by comics when they want to, and in Dragon Ball there's not even an admission of those principles. My talk about Superman and Flash was only an example demonstrating how, by following those rules, the Flash should be consistently more powerful in regards to Superman than he is portrayed to be, that's all. There's hundreds of examples capable of demonstrating that even if you don't agree with that particular one.

So, my point should have been perfectly clear and understood by you by now, but you insisted in dissecting details or examples instead of actually understanding what I meant and realizing that, indeed, Dragon Ball doesn't care about such principles and is kind of foolish to discuss it even remotely seriously regarding Dragon Ball, especially since even comics that supposedly take such things into consideration do not follow them consistently at all.
I never muddled those points. The whole "real life physics are only consistently followed by comics when they want to" point was totally over-masked by your points that you believe Superman is superior to the Flash. And you say this but in every Flash comic after the Jay Garrick version of the Flash(Because the Speed Force had yet to be introduced) has always stuck consistently to real life physics. Barry Allen as the Flash would constantly use his knowledge of physics to outwit any meta-humans he had to go up against or in situations that called for a strategy even against non meta-humans. Even against Dr. Zoom he has used things like super-heating sand to convert it into glass to make Zoom slide on it. And any powers that are used are explained through a variance of relativity. One of his powers in the comics is literally speeding up peoples healing factors through the Speed Force which isn't totally unbelievable. The Flash comics are really not a good example to demonstrate your belief if you want to point out comics that don't consistently follow real life physics. There are plenty of better examples.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Kaboom » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:01 pm

Just to clarify, my post was a subtle moderation attempt to get the thread away from the Superman power-scaling stuff and back onto its original track.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:21 pm

Kaboom wrote:Just to clarify, my post was a subtle moderation attempt to get the thread away from the Superman power-scaling stuff and back onto its original track.
I actually thought hiding the debate in spoilers was really clever, but alas it's still off-topic :P

As for the debate, yeah Beers says Goku couldn't beat Freeza without SS, so that's that.
Kibito's power is never noted as something special compared to the Saiyans. Gohan thought he'd be a handful, but as far as we know he had nothing to go on, besides Kibito's buddy Shin apparently being stronger than Piccolo.
The Z-sword scene for me shows, that Kibito is nothing compared to base Gohan and Goku.

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by dario03 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:26 pm

Doesn't one of the guide books say that Gohan would need SS to beat Kibito? Or is that just them restating what he said about probably not being able to?

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Kaboom » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:38 pm

dario03 wrote:Doesn't one of the guide books say that Gohan would need SS to beat Kibito? Or is that just them restating what he said about probably not being able to?
Yes, one or two of them say that Kibito has a high enough battle power to give non-Super Saiyan Gohan a good fight. If one wants or needs to reconcile that with the Z-Sword scene, one could just assume that Core People like Kibito are typically lacking in brute physical strength compared to Saiyans.
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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by dario03 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:51 pm

Kaboom wrote:
dario03 wrote:Doesn't one of the guide books say that Gohan would need SS to beat Kibito? Or is that just them restating what he said about probably not being able to?
Yes, one or two of them say that Kibito has a high enough battle power to give non-Super Saiyan Gohan a good fight. If one wants or needs to reconcile that with the Z-Sword scene, one could just assume that Core People like Kibito are typically lacking in brute physical strength compared to Saiyans.
Yeah I remember them saying that he could be a problem but they weren't sure. Does the guidebook make it clear?
And what were they even basing it on? Assuming they could sense their ki back then (pre God Ki reveal) would Kibito have been at full power?

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Angelus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:33 am

Any more thoughts?

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by rereboy » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:35 am

Kaboom wrote:Just to clarify, my post was a subtle moderation attempt to get the thread away from the Superman power-scaling stuff and back onto its original track.
I know, that's why I ended it with just one more post :)

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by Angelus » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:27 am

Yeah, let's forget the DC power-scaling stuff.

Back on topic. ;p

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Re: Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza

Post by xmysticgohanx » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:58 pm

Kaboom wrote:
dario03 wrote:Doesn't one of the guide books say that Gohan would need SS to beat Kibito? Or is that just them restating what he said about probably not being able to?
Yes, one or two of them say that Kibito has a high enough battle power to give non-Super Saiyan Gohan a good fight. If one wants or needs to reconcile that with the Z-Sword scene, one could just assume that Core People like Kibito are typically lacking in brute physical strength compared to Saiyans.
But power level increases every stat. The manga goes against the Daizenshuu in this case
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